MrTinker Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 Moved on to testing with the KPL now as well. So far, so good. I assume there's no risk or downside to installing snubbers with fans that might not require them, right? Just extra protection? The FanLincs are certainly some of the more annoying modules to replace when they do fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryllix Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 Moved on to testing with the KPL now as well. So far, so good. I assume there's no risk or downside to installing snubbers with fans that might not require them, right? Just extra protection? The FanLincs are certainly some of the more annoying modules to replace when they do fail. They can impair Insteon signals by absorbing them applied in too many places, by absorbing Insteon signals. They can't tell the difference. If a bad interferrence zone is suspected, I would still use simple MOVS, but they have to applied in the right places as do the older "snubbers" technology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 One indication the capacitor in the Snubber is absorbing the Insteon Power Line signals. Would be can turn On but not Off. When Off the Snubber is not across the AC input Off but is when connected through the FanLinc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrTinker Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 Ok, thank you both. Hopefully it won't be too bad being limited to only the ceiling fans (six at this time). I haven't seen any issues (yet) testing in the unfinished basement but there's also a limited number of devices and no walls, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrTinker Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 Initiating high speed now produces a very loud hum, not a good sign. Btw, this is the fan model I'm using for testing: https://www.hunterfan.com/Ceiling-Fans/Matheston There's no mention of amperage requirements, but it lists draw on high as 79 watts. Calculating A = P/V (I'm sure someone will correct me if this is an inaccurate way to determine amps) = 0.67 amps so it should be within the FanLinc's specs. EDIT: So the above calculation should be A = P / (PF x V) so I would really need to know the Power Factor. I'll try writing Hunter, but we can all guess what I'll get back as far as that goes, lol. Maybe the best thing to do is "eliminate" High from the choices of available scenes? Further Edit: I should have done this before, but I climbed up and took a look at the top of the fan assembly. There's a label with the following information: Fan motor: 102W Lights: 120W Total: 222W, 1.85A I removed the FanLinc and connected the fan leads directly to the wires in the extension cord. I used my electricity usage monitor (https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00E945SJG/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1) and plugged the fan in directly to it. With the fan on high and lights on, sure enough, 1.828 A. Turn lights off and it drops to 0.725 A (Power Factor is displayed as 0.96). It takes a little bit for the monitor to come up to the actual reading so perhaps there's an initial draw that's higher? More info: Medium speed readings from usage monitor: 0.431 A, PF - 0.56 Low speed readings from usage monitor: 0.247 A, PF = 0.32 Any other thoughts, things to check, ways to test, etc? So damn frustrating ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giomania Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 Does the fan look like it's on high-speed? I have had several FanLincs exhibit high-speed failures; it always sounds like a grinding noise, and the fan moves pretty slow, almost like on low speed Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrTinker Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 I didn't leave it on high for long when it started making that sound so I would guess not. In previous failures, I'd typically come into a room and it would be making a loud hum like that and the fan would either not be turning at all or, as you said, at a slower speed than what it should be. So by all my measurements, this fan should be "supported" by the FanLinc (1A or less draw for the fan motor, 300W or less for lights), but the FanLinc still fails, even with MOV or snubber in place. Anyone know of any other things that could make a fan incompatible with the FanLinc? It'd be really nice to solve this issue so I could use the FanLincs as I've already purchased KPLs for every location with a ceiling fan. I (and the wife) would not be happy having to replace all the new fans I just got to use with the FanLincs either. I tested one/two and they appeared to be working fine so I ordered all the fans and FanLincs/KPLs. Insteon doesn't provide a list of known good fans and only appears to list those very simple requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giomania Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 As I noted in a prior post, I did replace the four "white" fans that caused the majority of my FanLinc failures, but the only difference between those Emerson fans in my other Emerson fans was a difference of amperage (0.6 vs 0.7) Since I replaced those fans and got new fan links they have not been any failures on those fans, however one of my other Emerson Fants recently had a fan link failure at medium speed I haven't sent that one back yet. I guess the moral of the story is I don't know what the heck is going on in my house with those Emerson fans Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 Could be the design on the fan motor and how it interacts with the FanLinc. May not totally be the current rating. Like starting current or winding inductance interaction when driven by the FanLinc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 This would be a really good time to break out / borrow a clamp on amp meter. There is a lot of guessing and fooling around and that isn't going to help identify the root cause. As noted early on startup (inrush) current is one of the major contributors of a shorter service life in any electronic systems. This is why there are so many capacitors, resistors, inductors, in a modern piece of electronics to help reduce those effects. The use of Snubbers is NOT the solution and was only offered as a means to help offset CEMF, in band line noise, and smooth out the voltage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrTinker Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 This would be a really good time to break out / borrow a clamp on amp meter. Could you point me to a reasonable one? I assume I'd want to get one with a peak hold feature to allow proper capture of the inrush current? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 Could you point me to a reasonable one? I assume I'd want to get one with a peak hold feature to allow proper capture of the inrush current? I am a Fluke guy so reasonable is a quite relative for me in this regard. I always go into the mind set of (IF) I have to use a tool more than once its something I will put a moderate investment into said tool(s). Its probably different for me as many of the tools I have and use are to make a living. Most home owners unless you're just geared toward buying the very best (nothing wrong with that) purchase what ever. I would urge you to call / go to the local large box stores and inquire with their rental department. The small amount of rental costs will offer you insight about the tool(s), problem at hand, and if buying the same tool makes sense. Keeping in mind every home owner should have a True RMS DMM (Digital Multi Meter) to complete basic electrical tasks. Lastly, it should be noted many of the clamp on meters are geared toward measuring amperage over 2 amps. More expensive and specialized clamp on meters that measure 0.01 ~ 2.00 amps costs hundreds of dollars but offer more accuracy and insight to low current devices. Three options: 1. Rent: and get the data you need. Keeping in mind a general purpose clamp on meter won't be very accurate so read the specs. 2. Buy & Return: Buy a high quality clamp / DMM once done return it. No costs to you just your time and fuel. 3. Buy & Experience: What ever you rented, bought & returned, will help you decide what True RMS DMM to invest in. I say make the investment for the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giomania Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 I'm jealous! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 I'm jealous! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Nothing to be jealous about. It simply takes time, the need, life experiences, and investment in the tools that will help you and others in the long run. This is a very old picture of five tools which help me measure systems at work & play. There are twelve other high precision clamp, scope, and thermal imaging tools but that's for another time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giomania Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 Nice Fluke porn! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryllix Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 Some/many meters have peak current metering or surge metering but the average sampling time has to be known. A counter EMF spike from a fan is not likely to be caught on these multimeters. This would usually take a scope and many trials to capture a quick on shot spike that can damage electronics. I would be looking at replacing the fan motor (not likely), not using a fanlinc (yuk), or using three MOVs. This may be the problem. If a MOV is placed across the Fan motor, and the motor creates a voltage spike, then it should do the job.. However, if a spike comes from outside the circuit and goes through the fanlinc to find the MOV across the motor, the resulting current surge may damage the fanlinc electronics...the MOV would just make it worse. If a MOV is placed across the incoming supply to the fanlinc, it would absorb spikes created elsewhere outside the circuit. However, if the fan motor creates a counter EMF spike, the voltage spike will try to find the MOV through the fanlinc electronics and the current surge and may damage the fanlinc...the MOV would just make it worse. If a MOV is placed across the fanlinc from the fan motor hot to the incoming supply to the fanlinc hot, it would bypass the fanlinc, no matter where the spike is created and should protect the fanlinc.... the MOV should make it better. However, in this case, without expensive equipment or knowledge, I would recommend the brute force method....three MOVs. One placed as per statement 1, 2 , and 3, above. The wiring is going to be a mess. After all that is done one needs to find the source of this nuisance. i am sure other electronics may suffer the same problem, at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrTinker Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 I have a Fluke Microscanner2 and a 79 series II multimeter. I'm trying to see which Flukes will measure inrush current and I'm not seeing any of the multimeters do? Looks like a few of the clamp-on models (374, 375, 376) do. Certainly a 376 FC would appear to cover anything I could ever get myself involved in and I think I'd only have to sell my first born (luckily #2 is arriving any day now) to get it One thing I'm not clear on with those is the complete range and accuracy over the range. I see in the 37X FC manual: AC Current via Jaw Range 374 FC and 375 FC...........................600.0 A 376 FC...............................................999.9 A Resolution...............................................0.1 A Accuracy ................................................. 2 % ±5 digits (10 Hz to 100 Hz) ................................................. 2.5 % ±5 digits (100 to 500 Hz) Is that to assume it will be accurate down to 0 A at a 0.1 A resolution? They don't list a complete range like I see on their multimeters (e.g.: In the 175/177/179 multimeter manual, they list: AC A from 0.300 A to 10 A). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryllix Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 I have a Fluke Microscanner2 and a 79 series II multimeter. I'm trying to see which Flukes will measure inrush current and I'm not seeing any of the multimeters do? Looks like a few of the clamp-on models (374, 375, 376) do. Certainly a 376 FC would appear to cover anything I could ever get myself involved in and I think I'd only have to sell my first born (luckily #2 is arriving any day now) to get it One thing I'm not clear on with those is the complete range and accuracy over the range. I see in the 37X FC manual: AC Current via Jaw Range 374 FC and 375 FC...........................600.0 A 376 FC...............................................999.9 A Resolution...............................................0.1 A Accuracy ................................................. 2 % ±5 digits (10 Hz to 100 Hz) ................................................. 2.5 % ±5 digits (100 to 500 Hz) Is that to assume it will be accurate down to 0 A at a 0.1 A resolution? They don't list a complete range like I see on their multimeters (e.g.: In the 175/177/179 multimeter manual, they list: AC A from 0.300 A to 10 A). Fan motors of this type are not designed to come up to speed in less than two seconds and consequentially do not exhibit high inrush currents. Meters that measure inrush currents don't typically catch voltage spikes that damage electronics. However, if your problem is a fan motor that does have a high inrush current, it may show it. Mechanical parts (contacts and wiring) tolerate inrush currents that overheat parts, quite well, just distributing the excess heat. Electronic parts do not like high voltages, no matter how long they last. Even wiring insulation can break down with a nasty motor produced voltage spike, if turned off too quickly and/or at the wrong part of the 60Hz cycle. Voltage spikes and current surges are two different problems, and two different measurement techniques are required. Each can damage parts. A meter used by electricians for measuring surges, is not likely to measure voltage spikes, unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrTinker Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 Fan motors of this type are not designed to come up to speed in less than two seconds and consequentially do not exhibit high inrush currents. Meters that measure inrush currents don't typically catch spikes that damage electronics. However, if your problem is a fan motor that does have a high inrush current, it may show it. Mechanical parts (contacts and wiring) tolerate inrush currents that overheat parts, quite well, just distributing the excess heat. Electronic parts do not like high voltages, no matter how long they last. Even wiring insulation can break down with a nasty motor produced voltage spike, if turned off too quickly and/or at the wrong part of the 60Hz cycle. Voltage spikes and current surges are two different problems, and two different measurement techniques are required. Each can damage parts. A meter used by electricians for measuring surges, is not likely to measure voltage spikes, unfortunately. Just another interesting data point in all this ... I have two modules that work with an included remote that came with another Hunter fan model I have (Royal Oak 60" https://www.hunterfan.com/Ceiling-Fans/Royal-Oak?ModelNumber=54018).I installed one of these modules into the Matheston fan when the FanLinc failed and it's (so far anyway) been working just fine. I also fell back to this module/remote on the other Royal Oak fan when the FanLinc failed (that's in the master bedroom and the wife is pregnant so I needed to get it working asap). Also working just fine there. So if there are issues with inrush currents or voltage spikes, those cheap modules appear to handle them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryllix Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 Just another interesting data point in all this ... I have two modules that work with an included remote that came with another Hunter fan model I have (Royal Oak 60" https://www.hunterfan.com/Ceiling-Fans/Royal-Oak?ModelNumber=54018).I installed one of these modules into the Matheston fan when the FanLinc failed and it's (so far anyway) been working just fine. I also fell back to this module/remote on the other Royal Oak fan when the FanLinc failed (that's in the master bedroom and the wife is pregnant so I needed to get it working asap). Also working just fine there. So if there are issues with inrush currents or voltage spikes, those cheap modules appear to handle them. Unfortunately this comes back to SH does not make some products very reliable or in good quality. From the threads here on fanlincs I believe fanlincs are one of the poorest quality units SH have manufactured for the Insteon line. It seems we are trying to improve the product they way SH should have specified it in the first place. My guess is they get approached by some oriental manufacturer for a cheap price and SH bites for it putting their name on it. If it becomes a problem and doesn't improve within a policy guideline, they discontinue it. I also surmise SH has some severe internal problems. Hopefully the new guy can sort it out before collapse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 Just another interesting data point in all this ... I have two modules that work with an included remote that came with another Hunter fan model I have (Royal Oak 60" https://www.hunterfan.com/Ceiling-Fans/Royal-Oak?ModelNumber=54018).I installed one of these modules into the Matheston fan when the FanLinc failed and it's (so far anyway) been working just fine. I also fell back to this module/remote on the other Royal Oak fan when the FanLinc failed (that's in the master bedroom and the wife is pregnant so I needed to get it working asap). Also working just fine there. So if there are issues with inrush currents or voltage spikes, those cheap modules appear to handle them. I would stick with some basics first: - Measure what the line voltage is when the fan is off for a period of time. Do the vary same in all three speeds ~ of course remove the fan blades while doing so. - Verify what else is on this circuit and the only true method is to turn everything on and kill the breaker one by one until that fan and load(s) turn off. - Confirm what other load(s) are attached and document when they are used. Often times the simple answer is other devices are impacting a down stream branch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 @ Larry, Too funny I had one of those older Scope 123 back in the day before I upgraded. Very excellent tool for its day and offers great insight for a portable unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryllix Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 @ Larry, Too funny I had one of those older Scope 123 back in the day before I upgraded. Very excellent tool for its day and offers great insight for a portable unit. Yeah, It was a fallout of an upgrade. Been through two batteries now as the Ni-cads don't like not being used regularly. Would be nice to trigger delay on it. It wasn't fun locating bits on a DNP3 protocol problem but not the first time I had to build a trigger delay circuit either The Fluke 8060A was one of the first true RMS meters out there and really pricey. At 4.1/2 digit 0.05% basic accuracy, it was still a lesson in accuracy for AC waveforms. By the time was all said and done, better than 3% accuracy on an AC current, is hard to come by still. This one was used to calibrate many grid protection devices and was our traceable to NBS reference for some years. Another fallout from upgrades to lesser accuracies though. Lucky me! Safety eventually got in the way of accuracy though, with fused leads and other politician driven ideas forced upon us. OTOH, for many of the field electricians.... I repaired a few of these meters where journeymen attempted to measure current capacities of large battery banks. ...and they thought over 14kV was dangerous? LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asbril Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 I have 4 Home Depot fans in my home and all have Zwave switches. There is no single Zwave switch that controls both fan and fan light and therefore I use one fan switch and one light switch. Yes..... it would be a lot easier to have one switch for both fan and fan light, but it works for me and it never gives the issues that come with Fanlinc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giomania Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 Just another interesting data point in all this ... I have two modules that work with an included remote that came with another Hunter fan model I have (Royal Oak 60" https://www.hunterfan.com/Ceiling-Fans/Royal-Oak?ModelNumber=54018).I installed one of these modules into the Matheston fan when the FanLinc failed and it's (so far anyway) been working just fine. I also fell back to this module/remote on the other Royal Oak fan when the FanLinc failed (that's in the master bedroom and the wife is pregnant so I needed to get it working asap). Also working just fine there. So if there are issues with inrush currents or voltage spikes, those cheap modules appear to handle them. The Hunter fans I purchased to replace my White Emersons also have the wireless control modules. Since the fans are designed to work with such a device, I thought that was a safer path for use with the FanLincs. No failures on those 4 Hunter fans yet; it has been about two months. Fingers crossed. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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