Question about monitoring

[Blackbird]

I have yet to get the ELK alarm but called the local monitoring company and they informed me that they cant monitor ELK.  Any idea why?  Is there something special about ELK that is diiferent for monitoring than other alarm systems?

[Teken]

I have yet to get the ELK alarm but called the local monitoring company and they informed me that they cant monitor ELK.  Any idea why?  Is there something special about ELK that is diiferent for monitoring than other alarm systems?

 

No, its just not a very common alarm panel recognized by the major CS stations. If you really want to have the ELK system monitored you can use Alarm Relay or similar.

[MWareman]

Also, some monitoring companies want you to buy their system - and won't support anyone elses.

[Blackbird]

Also, some monitoring companies want you to buy their system - and won't support anyone elses.

So I assume both of you have ELK. What do you do? I'm in Canada by the way so I would hope to find a local monitoring company

[MWareman]

I use Alarm Relay (also known as Watchlight), but I'm in the U.S. I don't know if they provide service in Canada.

[Teken]

So I assume both of you have ELK. What do you do? I'm in Canada by the way so I would hope to find a local monitoring company

I reside in Canada - As MWareman noted some CS require you purchase the hardware from them directly and will then monitor your system.

 

This is common with ADT / Brinks etc . . .

 

While others have no problem supporting third party (Industry Known) alarm panels but it must be installed by a certified alarm specialist.

 

This is done mostly to comply with Ul / cUL standards to ensure the *System* has been installed correctly and meets all the requirements to ensure life and safety compliance. This also limits their liability and reduces the incidence of false alerts etc. Panel take overs of the (Can) happen all the time you may have to find a company that will allow you to on board with them.

 

If you do some research on the Interwebs you will find about three companies similar to Alarm Relay that will on board the ELK. The only thing you should come to accept is your long term monthly CS fee's will be high. Many CS companies like to nickel and dime the customer because most customers don't know the difference and simply accept what is being charged is standard industry fare.

 

What does that mean exactly?

 

You will see a vast difference in companies that actually charge per zone. You will see companies that will charge extra above and beyond burglary / fire. Meaning if you intend to monitor some of the most common environmental's such as: Sump, HWT, Low Temp, CO, Heat, Radon, Leak Detection, etc. They will actually make you pay $XX.XX more for that specific use case when in reality it makes no difference how many zones you have nor what type of violations.

 

But this is how the whole security industry has trended to - very much like using wireless security alarm systems for the lazy.

 

Regardless of the above with anything a person should not shop based on price alone. Nor should they believe just because they pay $60-100.XX per month they surpass a company that charges $17.XX per month.

 

Every reputable CS company strives to achieve the *Diamond* awards. This rating is similar to the JD Power Associate rating for cars, companies, services etc.

 

Essentially a 5 Diamond / Star rating indicates the best in class service, support, and reliability when compared to others in the market. This is kind of like the crash ratings automotive companies like to tout every year indicating you're safer if you strike / get struck by a moving object.

 

I can tell you from personal experience ratings matter to some degree. But what really matters is who the clients are these CS support. Meaning, if you find out they monitor for the bank, hospital, police, military, fortune 100, etc.

 

That is the company you want to be with . . .

 

It doesn't matter if you find out its just a Mom & Pop shop - all that matters is they meet every: City, Provincial, Federal, ISO, UL, cUL standard.

 

As their clientele obviously supports that fact . . .

 

NOTE: Even if the CS doesn't support the listed industries as I stated up above. If you find one that monitors gas stations, 7-11, etc. This is also a good company to deal with because just these two industries have more incidences of hold ups per year than any other.

 

Which means they literally leave their lives in the hands of the people at the center during a hold up. There is no f^cking around when someone is pointing a 9 mm in your face and you hit the silent alert button.

[giesen]

You may want to try The Monitoring Center ($10/mo) as they specialize in panel takeovers or Northern 911. I don't know if either will specifically support the Elk but won't hurt to ask. According to this thread on Cocoontech, Reliance Protection will do it as well. You may also want to contact AARTech as they are probably the largest Canadian Elk retailer/distributor and may be able to recommend someone. I also found Renpark Security is an Elk installer in the GTA (you didn't specify where in Canada you are) and apparently Bryan Baeumler approved (if you care about that sort of thing) and offer monitoring service as well.

 

It also looks like Alarm Club/GEOARM (based in US) specifically advertises support for Elk M1 and they will monitor Canadian systems.

[Blackbird]

So I get mixed answers about this. Can you have your elk monitored from ethernet or does it need cellular (I'm getting rid of my land line)

[Teken]

So I get mixed answers about this. Can you have your elk monitored from ethernet or does it need cellular (I'm getting rid of my land line)

 

That would highly depend upon the CS and whether they support IP reporting. Cellular is just like POTS / VOIP all they require is the kiss off.

[Scottmichaelj]

So I get mixed answers about this. Can you have your elk monitored from ethernet or does it need cellular (I'm getting rid of my land line)

Depends on the CS but with Alarm Relay in the USA you can do internet as primary and then a cell as secondary if you want. I highly suggest a backup.

[Blackbird]

So if I did Ethernet only then all I need is the Ethernet interface for the ELK?

[MWareman]

So if I did Ethernet only then all I need is the Ethernet interface for the ELK?

You need the M1XEP to interface with the ISY anyway.....

[Blackbird]

You need the M1XEP to interface with the ISY anyway.....

So the m1xep will be used to communicate with a monitoring company?

[giesen]

So the m1xep will be used to communicate with a monitoring company?

It depends on which methods your monitoring company supports, but yes.

 

There are a few basic methods by which the M1 can be monitored:

 

- POTS (traditional dial out on a phone line, required hardware is built into M1 main board)

- Cellular IP (requires a C1M1 or third party addon module)

- Cellular Dial Capture (requires a third party addon module that that simulates a phone line, also requires the built-in POTS interface on the M1)

- Ethernet IP (requires M1XEP or C1M1)

 

Often times two methods are used to provide redundancy in case one fails.

 

There are also a few variations for each.

 

- The POTS interface can be used with an ATA to dial out over a VOIP line (not usually recommended)

- Cellular IP is done either by interfacing with an addon serial interface (M1XSP) on the M1 (better) or by interfacing with an output zone on the M1 (worse, since no zone information is transmitted to the CS)

- Ethernet IP is usually done with the M1XEP, but the new C1M1 supports both Cellular IP and Ethernet IP in one device. Unfortunately you are tied to Telguard/Telular with this device, and it precludes you using an M1XEP as it occupies the main serial port on the M1 (which is required for the M1XEP)

 

Each method has different trade-offs, so best to combine two methods if possible. Note virtually all CS's support POTS, many but not all support Cellular IP/Ethernet IP.

 

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk

[Blackbird]

It depends on which methods your monitoring company supports, but yes.

There are a few basic methods by which the M1 can be monitored:

- POTS (traditional dial out on a phone line, required hardware is built into M1 main board)

- Cellular IP (requires a C1M1 or third party addon module)

- Cellular Dial Capture (requires a third party addon module that that simulates a phone line, also requires the built-in POTS interface on the M1)

- Ethernet IP (requires M1XEP or C1M1)

Often times two methods are used to provide redundancy in case one fails.

There are also a few variations for each.

- The POTS interface can be used with an ATA to dial out over a VOIP line (not usually recommended)

- Cellular IP is done either by interfacing with an addon serial interface (M1XSP) on the M1 (better) or by interfacing with an output zone on the M1 (worse, since no zone information is transmitted to the CS)

- Ethernet IP is usually done with the M1XEP, but the new C1M1 supports both Cellular IP and Ethernet IP in one device. Unfortunately you are tied to Telguard/Telular with this device, and it precludes you using an M1XEP as it occupies the main serial port on the M1 (which is required for the M1XEP)

Each method has different trade-offs, so best to combine two methods if possible. Note virtually all CS's support POTS, many but not all support Cellular IP/Ethernet IP.

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk

Thanks for the detailed info! Looks like I need to first find a monitoring company that does ethernet and go with the m1xep

[Blackbird]

You may want to try The Monitoring Center ($10/mo) as they specialize in panel takeovers or Northern 911. I don't know if either will specifically support the Elk but won't hurt to ask. According to this thread on Cocoontech, Reliance Protection will do it as well. You may also want to contact AARTech as they are probably the largest Canadian Elk retailer/distributor and may be able to recommend someone. I also found Renpark Security is an Elk installer in the GTA (you didn't specify where in Canada you are) and apparently Bryan Baeumler approved (if you care about that sort of thing) and offer monitoring service as well.

 

It also looks like Alarm Club/GEOARM (based in US) specifically advertises support for Elk M1 and they will monitor Canadian systems.

I'm in Saskatchewan. Aartech was no help, Northern 911, the monitoring center haven't even heard of ELK before

[Blackbird]

I reside in Canada - As MWareman noted some CS require you purchase the hardware from them directly and will then monitor your system.

This is common with ADT / Brinks etc . . .

While others have no problem supporting third party (Industry Known) alarm panels but it must be installed by a certified alarm specialist.

This is done mostly to comply with Ul / cUL standards to ensure the *System* has been installed correctly and meets all the requirements to ensure life and safety compliance. This also limits their liability and reduces the incidence of false alerts etc. Panel take overs of the (Can) happen all the time you may have to find a company that will allow you to on board with them.

If you do some research on the Interwebs you will find about three companies similar to Alarm Relay that will on board the ELK. The only thing you should come to accept is your long term monthly CS fee's will be high. Many CS companies like to nickel and dime the customer because most customers don't know the difference and simply accept what is being charged is standard industry fare.

What does that mean exactly?

You will see a vast difference in companies that actually charge per zone. You will see companies that will charge extra above and beyond burglary / fire. Meaning if you intend to monitor some of the most common environmental's such as: Sump, HWT, Low Temp, CO, Heat, Radon, Leak Detection, etc. They will actually make you pay $XX.XX more for that specific use case when in reality it makes no difference how many zones you have nor what type of violations.

But this is how the whole security industry has trended to - very much like using wireless security alarm systems for the lazy.

Regardless of the above with anything a person should not shop based on price alone. Nor should they believe just because they pay $60-100.XX per month they surpass a company that charges $17.XX per month.

Every reputable CS company strives to achieve the *Diamond* awards. This rating is similar to the JD Power Associate rating for cars, companies, services etc.

Essentially a 5 Diamond / Star rating indicates the best in class service, support, and reliability when compared to others in the market. This is kind of like the crash ratings automotive companies like to tout every year indicating you're safer if you strike / get struck by a moving object.

I can tell you from personal experience ratings matter to some degree. But what really matters is who the clients are these CS support. Meaning, if you find out they monitor for the bank, hospital, police, military, fortune 100, etc.

That is the company you want to be with . . .

It doesn't matter if you find out its just a Mom & Pop shop - all that matters is they meet every: City, Provincial, Federal, ISO, UL, cUL standard.

As their clientele obviously supports that fact . . .

NOTE: Even if the CS doesn't support the listed industries as I stated up above. If you find one that monitors gas stations, 7-11, etc. This is also a good company to deal with because just these two industries have more incidences of hold ups per year than any other.

Which means they literally leave their lives in the hands of the people at the center during a hold up. There is no f^cking around when someone is pointing a 9 mm in your face and you hit the silent alert button.

So do you use alarm relay for your elk system in Canada?

[Teken]

So do you use alarm relay for your elk system in Canada?

LOL - No, I don't own or use a ELK alarm system to protect my home. I use a local CS which meets all of the above criteria I noted up above.

 

It should be noted some insurance companies insist upon the monitoring station be local to your area for good reason.

 

The primary reason(s) are less hops, no international conflict regarding data & privacy laws, UL / cUL requirement, and transmission reliability.

 

When you use a out of province CS to monitor your premises. You have added more complexity and points of failure to happen.

 

One only needs to Google any disaster or human event from NYC 9/11, Boston Marathon bombing, hurricane Katrina etc.

 

Phones didn't work and it didn't matter what method used. When millions of people are using the infrastructure at the same time service will be disrupted!

 

Most people can count on one hand when a POTS line didn't work. You can't say the same thing for cellular, fiber, DSL.

 

POTS is self powered unlike other mediums.

 

Regardless of the above once you find a CS to monitor your home. You need to confirm all the key holders on the account. Followed by how many zones, type of zones, and how they are to be addressed.

 

You should have two challenge pass phrases. One is the primary authentication word / code. Next is enabling a *Duress* word / code.

 

You will need to confirm with the CS what SOP is used and followed when a duress code is entered or verbally given over the phone.

 

Failure to know and understand can get you killed or result in massive fines. Lastly, do not fall prey to using the same code forever!

 

This applies to verbal, duress, panel codes. 95% of all sites use the same code forever!

 

In a residential setting changing the code once a year is perfectly fine. In location where there is higher risk 2-4 times a year is needed. In enterprise / government this is done on a monthly basis.

 

Last but not least test, validate, and calibrate all systems to ensure they meet OEM spec and the use case required.

 

Security is a way of life not simply a thing that makes noise.

[giesen]

You could also try contacting Elk to see if there are any local dealers in SK. Worst case go with GEOARM, though I believe they are only POTS or POTS over VOIP for the Elk. You should check with your insurer to be sure, but most don't care where the CS is located, especially in SK since I doubt there are any CS's in the province.

 

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk

[Teken]

You could also try contacting Elk to see if there are any local dealers in SK. Worst case go with GEOARM, though I believe they POTS or POTS over VOIP. You should check with your insurer to be sure, but most don't care where the CS is located, especially in SK since I doubt there are any CS's in the province.

 

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk

 

Are you saying the entire Province of SK which has Government, Police, EMS, Hospital, Enterprise, Residential, have no central station to monitor for alarm conditions?!?!

 

SK isn't the North Pole . . .

[giesen]

Are you saying the entire Province of SK which has Government, Police, EMS, Hospital, Enterprise, Residential, have no central station to monitor for alarm conditions?!?!

 

SK isn't the North Pole . . .

I believe the monitoring industry is highly incestuous and that the actual monitoring is outsourced to a few large players. I could be wrong of course, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if there isn't one. The whole province of SK is only about 1M people, and I don't think offers any distinct advantages in terms of communication costs, labour costs, etc.

 

Edit: I stand corrected, looks like SaskTel / SecurTek do have a CS in Yorkton.

[Teken]

I believe the monitoring industry is highly incestuous and that the actual monitoring is outsourced to a few large players. I could be wrong of course, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if there isn't one. The whole province of SK is only about 1M people, and I don't think offers any distinct advantages in terms of communication costs, labour costs, etc.

 

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk

 

Every market has small to large players that perform the role of CS. This can be the Mom & Pop stores, larger alarm businesses, to dedicated CS. As you noted there are also *Franchise* CS networks similar to ADT / Brinks etc. But rest assured the OP needs to review the Yellow Pages to identify who they are and whether or not they are internal CS vs dedicated sublet CS for major vendors.

 

With respect to what the OP indicating the companies never hearing about ELK. This isn't too surprising to me or anyone else in the security industry. The average person which *The UDI members* here don't fall into the average category are hard pressed to find 25 houses on their street that use Insteon.

 

You will be hard pressed to find one never 25 ELK alarm systems down that same very street. Because the product caters and offers highly specialized home automation integration not seen in almost all other products on the market. Most security alarm companies stick with industry known and field proven hardware accepted by all industries.

 

This often times translates to less capability but only so much as it pertains to HA.

 

Some would call this boring, lack luster, to even outdated . . .

 

It really comes down to perspective and proper use case: Jack of all trades master of none? vs Dedicated field proven and reliable? If the OP simply looked around in any home, business, industry he would see at least five major brands being used in the area.

 

These same major brands have tens of millions of their wares all over different countries. This can not be said of the same of the ELK product due to its niche offerings. The one thing about the security industry is its extremely slow in offering new technology - one only needs to look at any IP camera where most still only offer 1-4 mega pixels!

 

Keeping in mind optical lens aperture supersedes mega pixels any day of the week. 

 

Regardless, OP let your fingers do the walking and see who is present in your local.

[Blackbird]

Every market has small to large players that perform the role of CS. This can be the Mom & Pop stores, larger alarm businesses, to dedicated CS. As you noted there are also *Franchise* CS networks similar to ADT / Brinks etc. But rest assured the OP needs to review the Yellow Pages to identify who they are and whether or not they are internal CS vs dedicated sublet CS for major vendors.

 

With respect to what the OP indicating the companies never hearing about ELK. This isn't too surprising to me or anyone else in the security industry. The average person which *The UDI members* here don't fall into the average category are hard pressed to find 25 houses on their street that use Insteon.

 

You will be hard pressed to find one never 25 ELK alarm systems down that same very street. Because the product caters and offers highly specialized home automation integration not seen in almost all other products on the market. Most security alarm companies stick with industry known and field proven hardware accepted by all industries.

 

This often times translates to less capability but only so much as it pertains to HA.

 

Some would call this boring, lack luster, to even outdated . . .

 

It really comes down to perspective and proper use case: Jack of all trades master of none? vs Dedicated field proven and reliable? If the OP simply looked around in any home, business, industry he would see at least five major brands being used in the area.

 

These same major brands have tens of millions of their wares all over different countries. This can not be said of the same of the ELK product due to its niche offerings. The one thing about the security industry is its extremely slow in offering new technology - one only needs to look at any IP camera where most still only offer 1-4 mega pixels!

 

Keeping in mind optical lens aperture supersedes mega pixels any day of the week. 

 

Regardless, OP let your fingers do the walking and see who is present in your local.

Do you believe that ELK might not be a good or sufficient alarm system? If not what do you recommend?

[Teken]

Do you believe that ELK might not be a good or sufficient alarm system? If not what do you recommend?

 

The ELK security alarm panel is more than capable to meet the consumer need(s). The reason you even considered it is because it offered HA capabilities not seen in many other hardware platforms. You also reviewed it because you know it integrates tightly with one of the best in class HA controllers in the market which is the ISY Series Controller.

 

I personally don't use the ELK because my personal needs are much higher. This in no way diminishes the over all capability and conveniences it offers the general public.

 

I also, unlike many involved with HA hold the belief that some aspects of our lives and hardware must be isolated and self contained. This basic principle is the cornerstone of every major industry because it assures reliability, isolation, and complete security.

 

We have all seen the Swiss Army Knife . . .

 

This simple yet effective tool offers great value and multi-purpose yet it will never replace dedicated tools like a knife, screw driver, cutter, etc. Because most of the people here are more focused upon convenience vs true security only you can decide what meets your personal needs.

 

For me security is paramount and as such every aspect of my life reflects that. I don't let uncertified software or hardware to connect or interact with my primary systems, ever. Not only is this against UL / cUL rules and regulations it leaves your systems open to exploit and failure.

 

Again, all of this comes down to personal choice vs expanding upon the convenience of you and the home. If you have ever taken the time to read my rants, raves, and replies. You will always notice I (almost) never recommend any specific brand as I don't like to show bias toward one company vs others.

 

But rest assured selecting an alarm panel is just one aspect in the security realm. Most of this I am sure you have read or heard about and that is installation is key. This encompasses what kind of components, where, and how they are used. Often times people get so caught up in deploying the security alarm system they lose sight of what they are trying to protect.

 

Meaning, now you spent $500 - 5500.00 on a high tech alarm system.

 

Yet any 85 lbs dripping wet child could break into your home because you did absolutely nothing to enforce and strengthen your physical barriers. Force protection is the first line of defense besides situational awareness and threat detection. I've been in homes and businesses that spent tons of money and not a single one of them addressed force protection.

 

In my past life when we performed a threat assessment and security audit while doing actual break ins. Seeing the look on someones face when they came into the office / home to find the entire room empty. What did the noise maker do to prevent that forced entry?

 

None . . .

 

It did not increase the amount of time for me or the team to penetrate the facility. It offered no barriers to limit where and how I entered or left the premises.

 

All an alarm system does is help communicate a threat exists and the location along with help should be rendered. Nobody should live in a vault but in the same breath no one should go through life surrounded by glass and expect nothing to happen. Force Protection is about increasing the amount of time and effort it takes to penetrate an area. Time is the only thing that matters in most things in life and when your house is on fire - you need time.

 

When someone is trying to smash threw your door - you need time.

 

An alarm system doesn't offer any time - it simply makes noise and flash some random lights. Anyone on crack isn't thinking straight and could care less whats happening around them. All they are focused upon is gaining entry because they see that shiny new toy sitting on your table.

 

Regardless of all of the above: The proper amount of insurance coverage is the only thing that will make you whole. It doesn't matter if you live in Fort Knox or have nothing to steal. If I burn down your home what is the alarm system going to do for you?

 

Only the proper amount and full comprehensive insurance will hopefully make you whole.

[Blackbird]

Thanks as always for the info.

I spoke to alarm relay and they do monitor elk over ethernet in fact they said that's the only way they do it for Canadian customers.