2475DA1 Cannot determine insteon engine

[Banichi]

I'm trying to add a in-line linc manually and the isy won't quite pick it up. I'm getting an "ack" response in the event viewer but it won't pull in the device type and it results in a "cannot determine insteon engine" error.

 

Have added several others today so far and this one is the only one giving me a problem.....so far.

 

Ideas as to why I'd be getting an "ack" but not actually able to add links or get device info.

[Banichi]

Just as an update I've since added several 6 & 8 Button KPL's with no issue. Electrician is still working on stuff so it could have something to do with that but it's just odd that I would get an acknowledge of the transmit if it weren't connected to power.

[Brian H]

Can you post a portion of the Event Viewer while trying to add the module.

There is an ACK received back from the PLM when a valid command is sent from the ISY994i to the PLM and it accepts it.

Normally the responses back from the module would be a SRX Standard Insteon Message received or an ERX Extended Insteon Message received.

 

Can you maybe. Put the module on a test power cord and connect it to the same circuit as the PLM? If it adds with no issues. You probably have a communications issue to its normal location.

[stusviews]

A factory reset often makes things right.

[Banichi]

I keep forgetting that the PLM will send back and ACK message. They simply weren't powered. It was just odd because there were units that I knew weren't powered and when I tried to add them I didn't even get an ACK from the PLM but with these couple of units the PLM did for whatever reason kick back an ACK. They got powered and I got them added just fine.

 

Thanks for the responses. I gotta get notifications turned on so that I know when folks respond to my posts.

[JoelW]

Here is what I am experiencing...

 

I have an ISY 994i for more than 2 years with more than 20 Insteon devices installed and working both manually and with programs in the ISY - No Issues.

 

I just installed a 2843-222 magnet open/close sensor at my garage door and a 2475SDB InLine-Linc Relay in a different room about 100 feet away (both brand new).

 

I tried manually linking these two devices but the RF wouldn't go through the wall. Following the instructions, I had a 2663-222 On/Off outlet less than 10 feet from the new sensor in direct line of sight so I first linked the sensor to the outlet. Then I was able to link the sensor to the relay with no problem.

 

From this moment on, this works fine. As the garage door open the relay turns on and turns off when the door closes. Great!!!

 

Now, I want to add these to the ISY. I used the start linking control and it found and successfully linked the 2475SDB relay. It does not see the sensor (2843-222).

 

So, I tried adding an Insteon device using the address of the device (3F.68.82) and it starts and then tells me it Cannot determine the Insteon Engine.

 

If I try to "Link a Sensor" it does the same. Surprisingly, however, if I use "Add and Keep Links", it adds some crazy links that do not exist as far as I know. Tried rebuilding all links using only what is in the ISY and then tried again and it adds the crazy links and even adds a new scene with links that don't make sense.

 

Now what. Help???

[Techman]

Here is what I am experiencing...

 

I have an ISY 994i for more than 2 years with more than 20 Insteon devices installed and working both manually and with programs in the ISY - No Issues.

 

I just installed a 2843-222 magnet open/close sensor at my garage door and a 2475SDB InLine-Linc Relay in a different room about 100 feet away (both brand new).

 

I tried manually linking these two devices but the RF wouldn't go through the wall. Following the instructions, I had a 2663-222 On/Off outlet less than 10 feet from the new sensor in direct line of sight so I first linked the sensor to the outlet. Then I was able to link the sensor to the relay with no problem.

 

From this moment on, this works fine. As the garage door open the relay turns on and turns off when the door closes. Great!!!

 

Now, I want to add these to the ISY. I used the start linking control and it found and successfully linked the 2475SDB relay. It does not see the sensor (2843-222).

 

So, I tried adding an Insteon device using the address of the device (3F.68.82) and it starts and then tells me it Cannot determine the Insteon Engine.

 

If I try to "Link a Sensor" it does the same. Surprisingly, however, if I use "Add and Keep Links", it adds some crazy links that do not exist as far as I know. Tried rebuilding all links using only what is in the ISY and then tried again and it adds the crazy links and even adds a new scene with links that don't make sense.

 

Now what. Help???

 

A battery powered device needs to be manually put into the linking mode before you can add it to the ISY

 

Being that you previously linked the device to  the 2475 you should first factory reset both devices and then link each device to the ISY using the ISYs linking option.

[JoelW]

A battery powered device needs to be manually put into the linking mode before you can add it to the ISY

 

Being that you previously linked the device to  the 2475 you should first factory reset both devices and then link each device to the ISY using the ISYs linking option.

 

I started that way. Put the sensor (battery device) into linking mode (pressed and held button until it was blinking). Next, I started the ISY linking and it never sees the device - period. That is why I began using the 2663 as a "relay" as described in the instructions. The again tried the ISY and it still does not see the device. Finally, I tried by adding the new device using the link address and that is when I get the "Can't identify Insteon Engine".

[Techman]

I started that way. Put the sensor (battery device) into linking mode (pressed and held button until it was blinking). Next, I started the ISY linking and it never sees the device - period. That is why I began using the 2663 as a "relay" as described in the instructions. The again tried the ISY and it still does not see the device. Finally, I tried by adding the new device using the link address and that is when I get the "Can't identify Insteon Engine".

 

What model ISY do you have, What firmware version and UI are you running?  The older firmware doesn't support some of the newer devices.

 

The message you're getting indicates a communication problem.  Make sure the sensor is in close proximity to a dual band device, then put it into the linking mode.

In the ISY link management use new Insteon device and type in the device address xx.xx.xx.

[JoelW]

What model ISY do you have, What firmware version and UI are you running?  The older firmware doesn't support some of the newer devices.

 

The message you're getting indicates a communication problem.  Make sure the sensor is in close proximity to a dual band device, then put it into the linking mode.

In the ISY link management use new Insteon device and type in the device address xx.xx.xx.

 

 ISY 994i (1120)

-Open ADR (21010)

-Portal Integration - Mobilinc (21073)

 

Firmware: Insteon_UD994 v4.5.4 (2016-09-30-16:12:25)

UI            : Insteon_UD994 v4.5.4 (2016-09-30-16:12:25)

 

The Open/Close sensor is 6-7 feet from the 2663 dual-band dual outlet.

I tried again to put it into linking mode, then keyed the ID into the Device address and it starts to do it and then says "Cannot determine Insteon Engine."

 

I did this using "New Insteon Device" with Auto-Discover" and with "Link a Sensor > Open/Close Sensor" with the address keyed in for both and I get the same message: "Cannot determine Insteon Engine."

 

When the sensor and relay are manually linked using the 2663 as a relay, the sensor correctly turns the relay on and off. I just cannot see it and test the sensor in the ISY

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi joel.weisbrod,

 

This is definitely related to the signals NOT getting from the PLM to the device. Are you certain that the sensor is in Programming Mode? i.e. press and hold the set button till the light starts blinking. Click it one more time to go into programming mode.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[JoelW]

Hi joel.weisbrod,

 

This is definitely related to the signals NOT getting from the PLM to the device. Are you certain that the sensor is in Programming Mode? i.e. press and hold the set button till the light starts blinking. Click it one more time to go into programming mode.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

 

Okay, finally a solution. In no other place does any documentation or any other advice on the forum tell me about the second push on the button to enter programming mode. OMG. Did that and it worked perfectly, first time!!!!!

 

Thank you so much Michel!!!!!!

[Techman]

Okay, finally a solution. In no other place does any documentation or any other advice on the forum tell me about the second push on the button to enter programming mode. OMG. Did that and it worked perfectly, first time!!!!!

 

Thank you so much Michel!!!!!!

 

to put the open/close sensor into linking mode you only have to hold the button down for 5 seconds until the led starts blinking. It does not require a second push.

[JoelW]

to put the open/close sensor into linking mode you only have to hold the button down for 5 seconds until the led starts blinking. It does not require a second push.

I tried this many times and after holding the button for a few seconds (5), it did, in fact, start blinking. But, it never linked - every time with every method suggested, it came back with the "cannot identify Insteon Engine" message. 

 

This time, I held the button until it began blinking (linking mode) and then released the button and then pressed it again. This changed the blinking pattern and the device linked to the ISY system perfectly the first time.

 

It seems like the second push of the button did change something.

[stusviews]

Interesting. With most Insteon devices, a tap after placing a device into linking mode causes the device to go into unlinking mode.

[Teken]

I tried this many times and after holding the button for a few seconds (5), it did, in fact, start blinking. But, it never linked - every time with every method suggested, it came back with the "cannot identify Insteon Engine" message. 

 

This time, I held the button until it began blinking (linking mode) and then released the button and then pressed it again. This changed the blinking pattern and the device linked to the ISY system perfectly the first time.

 

It seems like the second push of the button did change something.

 

For the benefit of the forum members can you please state the hardware revision and production date on the unit. In the Admin Console please let us know what the system indicates as the firmware in use for the device. Like Stu, a second press has always invoked a multi unlink process and find it odd this would ever change.

[JoelW]

The Unit is a 2843-222 Open/Close Sensor

 

The only notes inside the unit are: 3815 Rev 1.B  Yes, 1.B not 1.8

 

The Admin Console shows three entries for the device all saying: 3F.68.82 - (2421) TriggerLinc v.43

 

The three entries are labeled: Switch-Closed, Switch-Heartbeat, Switch-Open

 

I hope this helps because the second press of the button on the device solved all my issues with this linking...

[Techman]

Hi Joel,

 

The open/close sensor will always show as a Triggerlinc in the ISY.

 

I have the same hardware and version as you do.and there's only one option to put it into linking mode - a 5 second button press.

 

The Closed node is not supported in the ISY (not sure if it will be supported in version 5.x, but it's really not needed)

[Teken]

The Unit is a 2843-222 Open/Close Sensor

 

The only notes inside the unit are: 3815 Rev 1.B  Yes, 1.B not 1.8

 

The Admin Console shows three entries for the device all saying: 3F.68.82 - (2421) TriggerLinc v.43

 

The three entries are labeled: Switch-Closed, Switch-Heartbeat, Switch-Open

 

I hope this helps because the second press of the button on the device solved all my issues with this linking...

 

Thanks for the information but as stated pressing the button a second time normally invokes multi-unlinking. Pressing it a 3rd time takes the unit out of linking mode which has been this way for more than seven years.

[Teken]

Hi Joel,

 

The open/close sensor will always show as a Triggerlinc in the ISY.

 

I have the same hardware and version as you do.and there's only one option to put it into linking mode - a 5 second button press.

 

The Closed node is not supported in the ISY (not sure if it will be supported in version 5.x, but it's really not needed)

 

Did you intend to say it WAS NEEDED or NOT needed? The dual mode since the device lost the physical jumper and can only be accessed via software is certainly needed for many use cases.

 

Given more than two years have passed I highly doubt it will be introduced into any firmware release. But I would love to be proven wrong on that point when 5.XX goes into Beta next year.

[JoelW]

Did you intend to say it WAS NEEDED or NOT needed? The dual mode since the device lost the physical jumper and can only be accessed via software is certainly needed for many use cases.

 

Given more than two years have passed I highly doubt it will be introduced into any firmware release. But I would love to be proven wrong on that point when 5.XX goes into Beta next year.

 

Thanks for the information but as stated pressing the button a second time normally invokes multi-unlinking. Pressing it a 3rd time takes the unit out of linking mode which has been this way for more than seven years.

 

Okay, I admit I am not smart enough to handle this but, here is what I know:

 

1. I tried dozens of times pressing the link button for 5 seconds. First the button then start linking - no success in ISY; Then started linking first then the button for 5 sec. - no success in ISY. Then button for 5 sec first then add device with address keyed and discover device type - no success in ISY; next, the add device with address keyed and then the button - no success in ISY; next the button first and add device with address keyed and device = 2843-222 - no success in ISY; next add device with address keyed and device = 2843-222 and then the button for 5 sec - no success in ISY; 

 

2. Meanwhile, all this time the device was properly triggering the relay for the lights;

 

3. Every time I did this using all the different methods described above, I would see either:

a) not find the device at all; or 

start to add the device and then report "Cannot determine Insteon Engine"

 

4. After Michel suggested the second push of the button I tried the following:

 

a) Start the admin console

Start the add device using the address and the device type set to Open/Close sensor 2843-222

c) Push the 2843-222 button for 5 sec - Green light blinking

d) Release the button

e) Push the 2843-22 button once - down then up - the pattern of green light blinking has changed

e) Return to and view admin console; device is being added successfully on the first try

 

It has been perfect ever since operating the relay and in the ISY.

 

I do not know how or why this worked but it did.

[Teken]

All it matters in your case is that it works but that is not the expected behavior the Insteon API EDOC states should happen. 

[Techman]

Did you intend to say it WAS NEEDED or NOT needed? The dual mode since the device lost the physical jumper and can only be accessed via software is certainly needed for many use cases.

 

Given more than two years have passed I highly doubt it will be introduced into any firmware release. But I would love to be proven wrong on that point when 5.XX goes into Beta next year.

 

Having two nodes seems to be redundant.  The open node reports both ON and OFF.

What useful purpose would it be to have a Close node that reports the same conditions. Did I overlook something?

[Teken]

Having two nodes seems to be redundant. The open node reports both ON and OFF.

What useful purpose would it be to have a Close node that reports the same conditions. Did I overlook something?

The second node is for the other channel when using dual mode.

[stusviews]

Having two nodes seems to be redundant.  The open node reports both ON and OFF.

What useful purpose would it be to have a Close node that reports the same conditions. Did I overlook something?

 

Earlier Open/Close Sensors (formerly TriggerLinc) have two possible nodes, one that activated scene1 when the contacts were open and the other activated scene 2 when the contacts were closed. Keeping two nodes allows using older sensors in this manner.