rubenhak Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 Hi Everybody, I'm thinking about building a custom home automation using ISY i994 and Insteon products that I am already using. So far had been using those for home automation purposes. Want to extend it for home security. Specifically was thinking about getting door/window open/close sensors and using simple on/off switch turn on or off a siren. The only challenge is the way to arm the alarm or how to disarm it. I'd really appreciate any help here. I want this to be easy to use, and at the same time to be a little bit secure (i mean would not want to have 1 button on a keypad to turn off the alarm ) Ideally it would be some devices(cell phone) or some tiny beacons on a keyring that the system can sense its presence and automatically disable the alarm. On the other hand would also want to have an ability to arm the alarm with the device at home. Also it would be nice to have a keypad to arm and disarm the alarm using a key code. Something like that... Would very appreciate an input. Thanks, Ruben Link to comment
502ss Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 I think you will get a lot of comments that will discourage this idea as people feel there are a lot better solutions out there that integrate well with the ISY and insteon (elk for example) but I on the other hand will tell you that IT can be done but will require a significant amount of programs in the ISY to make it reliable. I have been working on a similiar system using just insteon, isy and wifi camera's I have an automatic door lock in my house that is controlled from my isy and its lock status is what controls the arming and disarming of the alarm. I have a detached garage that is also under the same protection via a camera inside and sensors on the doors. I have a friend/tenant that sometimes needs to enter the garage when I am not home and the system is armed. When he enters the garage he has 15 seconds to disable the alarm. This is done by pressing a certain insteon switch in the garage off 5 times. I actually disable the alarm on 3 off presses but I told him 5 because sometimes insteon drops commands. When the system is disarmed he is notified by the fluorescent lights being turned on. When he leaves the garage he turnes the fluorescent lights off which then starts to arm the system. This gives him 30 seconds to exit the garage and close the door before the system arms. I am doing a bunch of stuff with wifi cameras also that behave differently if the system is armed or disarmed but basically I think it can be done but will require a lot more planning and thought around how to make it fool proof Good luck! Link to comment
larryllix Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 I do the same using my ISY as a home security system to report intruders when I am not home. I use it for water leaks in four places as well as motion in ten places, heating failure and a few other things. The biggest problem that I have run into is false MS alarms. I have resolved that by allowing one but not two different MSes to detect motion before taking more drastic action. First one I get a notification and then lockout for some time to avoid nuisance flooding while you are away. Second MS within a set time causes alarms and lights. Light sequences can also be set up to appear like somebody walking though the house in the middle of the night. I use a KPL to activate and deactivate the system with a four key press code. That is posted in a thread back a year ago. This does fail occasionally and has low WAF. Usually a second try at code entry does it though. The combination KPL is also used to clear well pump and washing machine lockouts, with different combinations. The usage for that is multifold, and combos of 2,3,4 or more keypresses are possible, but I have a noisy environment at that end of my house, being over top of two PV inverters, so I wouldn't recommend more than a 4 keypress combination. I formerly used a double tap Off, on the SwitchLinc while already Off. Very easy to implement. As you may get flooded with, it is not a good quality security system but it's better than what I had before it. Link to comment
giesen Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 The reality is if you depend on the security system for the safety of your property and persons, you really need to go with something that is intended for that task. I highly recommend the Elk M1 (as will many others) for its excellent integration with the ISY. This isn't a knock against the ISY, but neither it nor Insteon in general were ever intended for that role, and just don't have the testing, certifications, security and reliability required for an effective security system. The Elk also doubles as an excellent way (once you get past the initial outlay of cash for the system itself) to be the "eyes and ears" of your ISY system, as you can add low-cost sensors and the ISY can use their status in just about everything. I'll give you a few basic examples... When someone rings my front doorbell, it turns on the porch light (if it's nighttime) and sends me a push notification. If I open my front door at night, it turns on both the inside and porch light. If I open my garage door (either the overhead door or the side door), the main lights turn on. All for the most part with $5 sensors. Now if you need to go wireless, obviously there's a bit more cost involved, but it's still cheaper than most Insteon sensors, and way more reliable. And the sensors serve a dual purpose for both security and home automation. I use Insteon exclusively for lighting control (no Insteon sensors whatsoever). The Elk is also a great way of providing the ISY with status or "intent". If I arm the Elk in night mode, it means I'm going to sleep so my ISY turns down the thermostat and turns off the lights (on a delay). If I arm in away mode, it does the same thing. If I arm in vacation mode, the setpoint on the thermostat goes to an even more energy-saving mode. In the end, using the proper tool for the task (though it will cost you more upfront) will provide a better user experience (and higher WAF) and be more reliable and flexible. Link to comment
pgreen Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 First, I have an ADT system for my alarm system main due to my concern about fire for CO alarms where I want ADT to immediately react to the alarm. However I have ISY as an 'alert' system for doors, windows and motion within the house. You question was one of arming the system. For about 5 years I have been arming the system with a two step approach. Inside the house I have a Smarthome 2487S KeypadLinc Dual Band and as I leave the house I set one of the buttons to the ON state. On the outside of the house I have an INSTEON IOLinc Proximity Reader Kit with the RFID tag on my house keys. That allows me to enable the second input to the system. I then have a folder of prrograms that are enabled when both conditions are set. I get an email alert anytime I have a door, window, side garden gate open or there is any motion in the house. It has been extremely reliable for more than 5 years. That said, I am not getting ride for ADT anytime soon. Peter Link to comment
stusviews Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 It's not just a bad idea to use Insteon as a security system, it's a terrible idea. Sure, you can use Insteon devices to alert you if a door or window is opened, but that won't stop the intruder, most especially if you're not there. Also, it's common for a thief to cut power. No power, no alert. If you really need a security system, only a security system will suffice. Period. Link to comment
larryllix Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 (edited) Hi Everybody, I'm thinking about building a custom home automation using ISY i994 and Insteon products that I am already using. So far had been using those for home automation purposes. Want to extend it for home security. Specifically was thinking about getting door/window open/close sensors and using simple on/off switch turn on or off a siren. The only challenge is the way to arm the alarm or how to disarm it. I'd really appreciate any help here. I want this to be easy to use, and at the same time to be a little bit secure (i mean would not want to have 1 button on a keypad to turn off the alarm ) Ideally it would be some devices(cell phone) or some tiny beacons on a keyring that the system can sense its presence and automatically disable the alarm. On the other hand would also want to have an ability to arm the alarm with the device at home. Also it would be nice to have a keypad to arm and disarm the alarm using a key code. Something like that... Would very appreciate an input. Thanks, Ruben Welcome to the forum. Motions sensors for security usually have terrible placement for home automation, so some may be suggesting you have two systems in place. You can draw your line anywhere you like, depending on the security you feel the need for, and that makes you FEEL safe. After you install titanium bars on every window and reinforce all your doors with multiple chains, install a secret backup generator and many other paranoia things, you can always worry about that sniper bullet coming through your window, if you need more to worry about. It never stops. eg. Don't ever use mobile phones to call for help, because the first thing attackers will do is jam all the airwaves. (sarcasm). Don't use grid power as attackers could hook up a generator with high voltage and kill all residents touching a lightswitch. (sarcasm) Securitry warning stickers on windows accomplish about 95% of what needs to, and can be, done. They keep the kids out. The rest may think they have a reason, and you aren't going to stop the determined ones if you have property worth stealing. That is why the stickers are held so tightly to the security companies proverbial chests. They know this factor, and some will admit it. This is neighbourhood dependant. If bullets frequently fly, you need an amoured tank, or move away I know several people with professionally installed systems that were robbed while in their backyards barbecuing. Why wasn't their alarm system on to protect the purse hanging by the front door? There is always a twist, and there is always insurance. Match your needs with your installation costs. Another factor to consider is, when you get that alarm, what do you do? Worry about it until you get home? Calls the cops and have them charge you for a crying wolf? Call a neighbour? If you have a security company system get the alarm, is the phone not being answered really a reason to call the cops? Best two clues? If an intruder is about to be nasty to your daughter, how much time do you have while they call your number and ring it ten times. Maybe you are forced to answer with your password at gunpoint while the intruder monitors? Lions, and tigers, and bears... Oh My! Edited November 6, 2016 by larryllix Link to comment
rubenhak Posted November 5, 2016 Author Share Posted November 5, 2016 Wow, those were the hottest responses I had ever received for open threads in forums. Really appreciate the diversity of the inputs. Very useful. In reality I need a very basic protection. If somebody opens the door or the window then trigger the siren. That's it. I've never been a fan of motion sensors, so I will skip on that and would like to purely rely on opening sensors. Window shutter sensor would be a nice thing to have, but its not a strong requirement, since most of the times the window is broken only to slide and open it. So the window open/close sensor should be able to pick it up. The sensors would have to be wireless. Regardless how much I like to run wires, it would be an overkill to route so many wires from windows and doors. So I would go with wireless sensors. I believe I can power the ISY and the Sirens using a small UPS, which I already have. So in the case of a burglar that has a little bit knowledge what he/she is doing and shuts down the power to the house would not prevent the siren from screaming. I don't need an automated call to police. We live in a quite neighborhood, and in case of an attempt to rob a house, two 105dB sirens screaming should be sufficient. Obviously I will receive an email/sms. But the primary mean of protection would be sirens. I'm not against the ELK, but I couldn't find much info on it. Does it have wireless door sensors? Can I implement such a behavior with ELK? One more thing. I have a separate office in the garage and would need an ability to arm the garage without arming the house. Something like a dual-zone alarm. Need to understand how the RF Proximity Reader works and how can i make use of it. Should I pass the wires through the wall to make a a little bit secure? Link to comment
rubenhak Posted November 5, 2016 Author Share Posted November 5, 2016 Also, I've noticed that there is some IFTTT integration with SimpliSafe. How does that work? Can I make the SimpliSafe work with two zones? Link to comment
dbuss Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 Elk does have wireless sensors and you can have an area setup for your residence and another area for your office. Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk Link to comment
giesen Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 (edited) The sensors would have to be wireless. Regardless how much I like to run wires, it would be an overkill to route so many wires from windows and doors. So I would go with wireless sensors. I'm not against the ELK, but I couldn't find much info on it. Does it have wireless door sensors? Can I implement such a behavior with ELK? One more thing. I have a separate office in the garage and would need an ability to arm the garage without arming the house. Something like a dual-zone alarm. Elk (www.elkproducts.com) supports 3 different types of wireless sensors... GE, Honeywell, and their own brand (depending on which receiver you get) . So you have lots of options to choose from. Elk supports up to 8 separate areas. Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk Edited November 5, 2016 by giesen Link to comment
rubenhak Posted November 5, 2016 Author Share Posted November 5, 2016 Let me understand something. If I go with ELK and get their LCD touchscreen, would I be able to receive the triggers at ISY to also control the lighting if the function keys are used? Link to comment
stusviews Posted November 6, 2016 Share Posted November 6, 2016 Let me understand something. If I go with ELK and get their LCD touchscreen, would I be able to receive the triggers at ISY to also control the lighting if the function keys are used? Good the hear that you're actually considering a security system to use as a security system instead Insteon which is not meant to be a security system. Elk is certainly a top choice to integrate security with the ISY and Insteon devices. The latter is also a good choice to supplement, but not take the place of a real security system. Link to comment
Scottmichaelj Posted November 6, 2016 Share Posted November 6, 2016 Let me understand something. If I go with ELK and get their LCD touchscreen, would I be able to receive the triggers at ISY to also control the lighting if the function keys are used? I wouldn't suggest paying for the Elk LCD. You can use a phone or a cheaper android/ios device with say the Agave app on Android or MobiLinc on iOS. Just my opinion. Link to comment
rubenhak Posted November 6, 2016 Author Share Posted November 6, 2016 The ELK looks pretty complex even to determine which components are needed. So my plan is to connect the ELK to ISY, use wireless door/window sensors. No motion detection. Preferably two sirens. I came up with the following items to buy. Does it look like a complete set to cover my needs? ELK M1GSYS4S M1 Gold Kit. Includes the M1 Gold Board, M1KP2 LCD Keypad, enclosure, battery, transformer, ELK-73 Interior Speaker, two telephone protectors that I'm not planning to use. ELK M1XRFTW - Two Way Wireless Trasciever ELK M1XEP M1 ETHERNET PORT EXPANDER AND INTERFACE Door sensors. There are 2 options with ELK (didnt want to go with GE or honeywell). ELK-6020 seems the better option since it has the largest capacity battery. There is also ELK-6021 a slim model that is fed by CR2032 battery. ELK-6010 Two-Way Wireless 4-Button Keyfob Remote Control M1 FOBS FOR PROX READER Would I need "ELK M1PR M1 MINI PROX READER FOR KEYPAD" in order to use the ELK-6010 and M1 FOBS with the keypad? I noticed that the M1KP2 keypad has a possibility to have an external RF reader connected, but does it also have an internal RF reader? Two ELK-71 or ELK-74 sirens. How can i connect both of them to the M1 board? Few more questions, what is the main purpose of the internal speaker that comes with the kit. Should it be installed in the interior of the house, or I can keep it in the attic? Also, the sirens. where is the best place to mount them? How long should I expect the batteries on the door sensors to last? Link to comment
KeviNH Posted November 6, 2016 Share Posted November 6, 2016 The ELK looks pretty complex even to determine which components are needed. So my plan is to connect the ELK to ISY, use wireless door/window sensors. No motion detection. Preferably two sirens. I came up with the following items to buy. Does it look like a complete set to cover my needs? . . . Few more questions, what is the main purpose of the internal speaker that comes with the kit. Should it be installed in the interior of the house, or I can keep it in the attic? Also, the sirens. where is the best place to mount them? The main purpose of the internal speaker is to provide alarm/fire alerting inside the house, at a moderate volume. The speaker isn't really all that loud, you might not really hear it at all if you mount it in the attic instead of somewhere connected to the main living area. Sirens are much, much louder, and make sure all your neighbors know you have an alarm system. If your garage or attic has a open gable vent, it's common to mount a siren just inside the vent, aimed outwards. This protects it from the weather, critters, etc. Link to comment
rubenhak Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 ok, thanks. That makes sense. Can someone help with choosing the right components to get the ELK system up and running? Link to comment
Scottmichaelj Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 ok, thanks. That makes sense. Can someone help with choosing the right components to get the ELK system up and running? PM me your info and Ill be happy to help you (for free). I'm an authorized Elk reseller and installer. Link to comment
G W Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 ok, thanks. That makes sense. Can someone help with choosing the right components to get the ELK system up and running? Scott was a great help to me when I needed help putting a system together. I. S. B. S. P. Best regards, Gary Funk Link to comment
rubenhak Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 Scott was a great help to me when I needed help putting a system together. I. S. B. S. P. Best regards, Gary Funk I've just finished a talk with Scott. He helped a lot with ELK and integration with ISY. Scott indeed was a great help!! Link to comment
txNgineer Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 (edited) I would like to suggest that when you are designing, configuring, and setting up your system that you give some thought to the general security principles of protection. This will help you focus where you spend your time, money, and resources. Sadly a lot of the mass market security companies sell products instead of security. The overall objective should be to get the unauthorized people or activity to go away before you have to deal with it. The five "D"s is a very good model. You can google it for much more detail, but in a nutshell: Deter - this makes the "bad guy" think about going somewhere else. It usually contains signs, fences, thorny hedges, lighting, etc. Detect - this is to let the system, and you/others, know about a problem. It usually contains movement triggered video, alarm switches, driveway detectors, etc. Remember that detection serves no purpose if it does not trigger some form of action. For example, seeing that someone is in your driveway when you are at work an hour away is not very useful. It is only useful if it triggers some action that would have an effect on the activity. I have seen lots of people at work getting an alarm on their phone and then helplessly worrying about it until someone could act on it and find out it was a false alarm. Deny - this is to hopefully prevent the action from occurring. It usually contains locks, deadbolts, automatic doors, biometric or coded (manual or fob) entry, fences Delay - this is to slow the bad actor down until help arrives. It usually contains, locks, deadbolts, loud sirens, flashing lights, etc. In a residential setting I generally think of Deny and Delay together, with the exception of a safe-room (which is primarily for Delay). Defend - this is the area of last resort. It is a very personal issue and needs to consider availability of professional help (Police, Fire, EMT, etc.) as well as your environment. However, having said all of that, don't overlook the actual risk of things happening. MANY people protect against the wrong risks. For example, compare your local crime statistics to the likelihood of fire, lightning damage, flood, hurricane, or other natural disaster. This means that here in the Texas Gulf Coast I have put much more effort into having my ELK and ISY monitor weather issues than window breakage. A key focus was to provide remote access to my data and home after we have to "bug out". After hurricane Ike, the first knowledge I had that my home survived was an ssh link to my automation system. I could then check whether the power was back on, the doors and windows intact, the fridge cooling, etc. Hopefully this will help you in your planning and how you set up your system. Good luck and have fun! Edited November 10, 2016 by txNgineer Link to comment
larryllix Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 I would like to suggest that when you are designing, configuring, and setting up your system that you give some thought to the general security principles of protection. This will help you focus where you spend your time, money, and resources. Sadly a lot of the mass market security companies sell products instead of security. The overall objective should be to get the unauthorized people or activity to go away before you have to deal with it. The five "D"s is a very good model. You can google it for much more detail, but in a nutshell: Deter - this makes the "bad guy" think about going somewhere else. It usually contains signs, fences, thorny hedges, lighting, etc. Detect - this is to let the system, and you/others, know about a problem. It usually contains movement triggered video, alarm switches, driveway detectors, etc. Remember that detection serves no purpose if it does not trigger some form of action. For example, seeing that someone is in your driveway when you are at work an hour away is not very useful. It is only useful if it triggers some action that would have an effect on the activity. I have seen lots of people at work getting an alarm on their phone and then helplessly worrying about it until someone could act on it and find out it was a false alarm. Deny - this is to hopefully prevent the action from occurring. It usually contains locks, deadbolts, automatic doors, biometric or coded (manual or fob) entry, fences Delay - this is to slow the bad actor down until help arrives. It usually contains, locks, deadbolts, loud sirens, flashing lights, etc. In a residential setting I generally think of Deny and Delay together, with the exception of a safe-room (which is primarily for Delay). Defend - this is the area of last resort. It is a very personal issue and needs to consider availability of professional help (Police, Fire, EMT, etc.) as well as your environment. However, having said all of that, don't overlook the actual risk of things happening. MANY people protect against the wrong risks. For example, compare your local crime statistics to the likelihood of fire, lightning damage, flood, hurricane, or other natural disaster. This means that here in the Texas Gulf Coast I have put much more effort into having my ELK and ISY monitor weather issues than window breakage. A key focus was to provide remote access to my data and home after we have to "bug out". After hurricane Ike, the first knowledge I had that my home survived was an ssh link to my automation system. I could then check whether the power was back on, the doors and windows intact, the fridge cooling, etc. Hopefully this will help you in your planning and how you set up your system. Good luck and have fun! Excellent, unbiased, information! Link to comment
rubenhak Posted November 12, 2016 Author Share Posted November 12, 2016 I would like to suggest that when you are designing, configuring, and setting up your system that you give some thought to the general security principles of protection. This will help you focus where you spend your time, money, and resources. Sadly a lot of the mass market security companies sell products instead of security. The overall objective should be to get the unauthorized people or activity to go away before you have to deal with it. The five "D"s is a very good model. You can google it for much more detail, but in a nutshell: Deter - this makes the "bad guy" think about going somewhere else. It usually contains signs, fences, thorny hedges, lighting, etc. Detect - this is to let the system, and you/others, know about a problem. It usually contains movement triggered video, alarm switches, driveway detectors, etc. Remember that detection serves no purpose if it does not trigger some form of action. For example, seeing that someone is in your driveway when you are at work an hour away is not very useful. It is only useful if it triggers some action that would have an effect on the activity. I have seen lots of people at work getting an alarm on their phone and then helplessly worrying about it until someone could act on it and find out it was a false alarm. Deny - this is to hopefully prevent the action from occurring. It usually contains locks, deadbolts, automatic doors, biometric or coded (manual or fob) entry, fences Delay - this is to slow the bad actor down until help arrives. It usually contains, locks, deadbolts, loud sirens, flashing lights, etc. In a residential setting I generally think of Deny and Delay together, with the exception of a safe-room (which is primarily for Delay). Defend - this is the area of last resort. It is a very personal issue and needs to consider availability of professional help (Police, Fire, EMT, etc.) as well as your environment. However, having said all of that, don't overlook the actual risk of things happening. MANY people protect against the wrong risks. For example, compare your local crime statistics to the likelihood of fire, lightning damage, flood, hurricane, or other natural disaster. This means that here in the Texas Gulf Coast I have put much more effort into having my ELK and ISY monitor weather issues than window breakage. A key focus was to provide remote access to my data and home after we have to "bug out". After hurricane Ike, the first knowledge I had that my home survived was an ssh link to my automation system. I could then check whether the power was back on, the doors and windows intact, the fridge cooling, etc. Hopefully this will help you in your planning and how you set up your system. Good luck and have fun! I appreciate your input. The 5 D sounds very powerful! Btw, already received the ELK. Managed to start the board and connect the keypad. It immediately starts beeping and complaining about zones, areas, low battery, etc Looks pretty complex. Are there any easy guides available? Link to comment
larryllix Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 Zones will be normally closed electrical loops for security of system detection If you have no device connected you may need to short out the input or bypass the zone in the setup. Link to comment
DennisC Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 I appreciate your input. The 5 D sounds very powerful! Btw, already received the ELK. Managed to start the board and connect the keypad. It immediately starts beeping and complaining about zones, areas, low battery, etc Looks pretty complex. Are there any easy guides available? I think it is a little odd that any of the zones are programmed on a new board. All you need to do is log in with Elk RP software and disable any active zone(s). One thing worth mentioning and I suggest you verify this in the manual, but I think a resistor is required on the siren output if you don't have one connected to the proper terminals. If not, the panel (I think) stays in trouble. Dennis Link to comment
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