Occupancy sensor?

[Jay M]

We have installed a buch of Insteon controlled fixtures in a commercial environment.  It's all working great, but we need an occupancy sensor to meet the code.

 

We've purchased a motion sensor so we can meet the code.

 

It's installed and working, but how should I program it?  There's dozens of options, but I need help with what is best to meet code and work for us.

 

As far as I understand the code, the lights must go off when no one is in the room.  You obviously don't want them to turn off while the room is occupied.  

 

Can anyone suggest a methodology for programming?

 

I made a quick program the sends an off command when no motion is detected.  What I don't know is how long the delay should be.  I also don't know if there are any other programming criteria typically used in an occupancy sensor.

 

One odd thing I'll need to google... this is different than a vacancy sensor.  Occupancy vs Vacancy?  sounds like the same thing to me. Code specifies occupancy, not vacancy.

 

thanks,

~Jay

[Teken]

Hello Jay,

 

There are several things that can be done but before we even go there you need to define the real world use case of this room.

 

1. How long will people be in this room?

 

2. Will everyone be sitting and not moving?

 

3. Have you considered simply making a program that says turn on the lights for XX hours from X time to X time? Doing so will ensure the highest customer satisfaction.

 

4. One of the easiest approaches is to program the motion sensor to turn on the lights when ever it detects motion. But have a program to govern what happens from X - X time periods.

[larryllix]

You cannot detect vacancy. You can only detect occupancy. Vacancy can be assumed after lack of motion (or other) detection after some selected time.

 

It is important that your MS is positioned to catch the most and slightest motion so that is crosses the sensing from side to side.

 

If it is a commercial endeavour I would install two MS units, maybe on walls 90 degrees to each other to be as sensitive to motion as possible.

Enable software configuration for the MS units and disable Off and dark only options.

Use "switched" for a retriggerable timer action

 

If

...(

...MS1 is switched ON

...OR

...MS2 is switched ON

...) AND

...from 7:00 AM

...to 1:00 AM (next day) <--- this will switch off lights if the wait fails because it logically evaluates to False running Else

 

Then

...turn lights On

...Wait 30 minutes

...turn lights Off

 

Else

...wait 10 minutes

...turn lights Off

Edited December 1, 2016 by larryllix

[Teken]

Also keep in mind if its programmed correctly any movement will simply add more time. So if you define a safe interval of say three hours. Anytime movement is detected in that room it will simply reset the clock and start another 3 hour (ON) time. No movement from 7:00 AM to 5:00 PM turn the lights off.

 

As a watch dog timer you can create another program that queries the conference room lights. Say you know for a fact no one is ever going to be there from 10:00 PM to 5:00 AM. The system will check and then turn the lights off to ensure no wasted energy etc.

 

One important consideration is to create a program that allows a person to double / triple tap a designated remote or switch to turn off the program.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Teken

[Techman]

Keep in mind that the motion sensors don't really detect motion, they detect variations in temperature.

 

As larryllix suggested it would be best to have two units mounted 90 degrees apart as the sensors work best when a person moves across the sensor path not into the path. Take a look at the coverage chart in the attached manual

2842-222 Motion Sensor Manual.pdf

[stusviews]

Code requirements differ. Which municipality/state? Which motion sensor?

[Jay M]

wow! you guys are fast.... I'll need to digest all this good stuff.

 

And I did google the definitions.... it turns out what we need are Vacancy sensors.  Our plans have the wrong wording.

 

~Jay

[Jay M]

I just read through your posts.  Very helpful stuff!

 

We really are only worried about complying with the code.  Code requires a vacancy sensor.

 

Occupany= lights turn on automatically when they sense motion, then turn off automatically when no motion is sensed after a period of time.

Vacancy= lights must be manually switched on, then turn off automatically when no motion is sensed after a period of time.

 

What does "else" do in a program?

 

Teken, how do you create key that allows your to disable a program?

 

thanks,

~Jay

[larryllix]

I just read through your posts.  Very helpful stuff!

 

We really are only worried about complying with the code.  Code requires a vacancy sensor.

 

Occupany= lights turn on automatically when they sense motion, then turn off automatically when no motion is sensed after a period of time.

Vacancy= lights must be manually switched on, then turn off automatically when no motion is sensed after a period of time.

 

What does "else" do in a program?

 

Teken, how do you create key that allows your to disable a program?

 

thanks,

~Jay

My son has one of those vacancy sensors in his bathroom. PITA having half an MS.

 

Else section runs when the logic in the If section evaluates as false (in boolean logic)

This will happen when a time frame is over (from-to).

 

Since the MSes can only generate a "swicthed On" signal they only generate a True when the signal is received and False all other times. This means when the time frame "To" generates a True the MS conditions are False and run the Else section anyway.

 

In the end the combination says

If either MS sees motion...AND the time is between From and To,  run the Then section, turning the lights on and restarting the Wait timer.

Also, if the triggers from the time frame are exactly those times but no MS signal is present (not possible) run the Else section

 

This program already  contains the watchdog timer Teken was posting about.

 

Confused yet?

Edited December 1, 2016 by larryllix

[Techman]

I just read through your posts.  Very helpful stuff!

 

We really are only worried about complying with the code.  Code requires a vacancy sensor.

 

Occupany= lights turn on automatically when they sense motion, then turn off automatically when no motion is sensed after a period of time.

Vacancy= lights must be manually switched on, then turn off automatically when no motion is sensed after a period of time.

 

What does "else" do in a program?

 

Teken, how do you create key that allows your to disable a program?

 

thanks,

~Jay

 

You might want to check these out  http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lutron-Maestro-2-Amp-Single-Pole-Occupancy-Sensing-Switch-White-MS-OPS2H-WH/203202128

[Teken]

Hello Jay,

 

The following programs are examples I use in my home for various lighting fixtures and use case. Some of them do not have motion sensors attached / linked to them for obvious reasons. My reply is to simply offer you a general sense of how the code is crafted and the logic that follows.

 

You may take any portion and use them to your use case.

 

This program is to monitor a large LED tube ceiling light. Pressing the button will invoke 30 minute timer. If the switch is double tapped (Fast On) it will over ride the 30 minute timer and the light will remain on indefinitely until the user presses the off button. 

 

Ceiling 30 Min Timer - [iD 0024][Parent 00C0]

 

If

        Control 'Ceiling Lights' is switched On

    And Control 'Ceiling Lights' is not switched Fast On

 

Then

        Wait  30 minutes 

        Set 'Ceiling Lights' Off

        Set Scene 'Ceiling Light' Off

 

Else

   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

This program monitors the laundry room and for obvious reasons I didn't want the lights to turn off while anyone was moving around. But the system is programmed to turn off the lights after 10 minutes of no motion. It should be noted the use of the *Control* function instead of the *Status* function as this determines how the MS will react when it senses motion.

 

Laundry 10 Min Timer - [iD 002F][Parent 00C0]

 

If

        Control 'Laundry Motion-Sensor' is switched On

 

Then

        Set Scene 'Laundry Room' On

        Wait  10 minutes 

        Set Scene 'Laundry Room' Off

 

Else

   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

This program is a variation of the same (laundry 10 min timer & reset countdown based on movement). This program basically says if the MS senses movement turn the lights on for 2 minutes than turn it off. If I happen to be in the office I don't want the blasted thing to keep turning off and leaving me in the dark.

 

So all I need to do and (Any lay person) would expect is to tap the on paddle position. This will over ride the 2 minute timer and leave the lights on indefinitely until someone presses the off paddle.

 

 Office Over Ride Timer - [iD 02C7][Parent 00C0]

 

If

        Control 'Office Motion Sensor-Sensor' is switched On

    And Program 'Office Manual' is False

 

Then

        Set Scene 'Office Light' On

        Wait  2 minutes 

        Set Scene 'Office Light' Off

 

Else

   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

This is the over ride program to the above office program.

 

Office Manual - [iD 02D3][Parent 00C0]

 

If

        Control 'Office Lights' is switched On

    And Control 'Office Lights' is not switched Off

 

Then

   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

Else

   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

As you can see there is more than one way to skin a cat and based on your use case. Any of the above can be modified to suite your needs. But since your intention is the reverse of most peoples use its going to be easier.

[stusviews]

I just read through your posts.  Very helpful stuff!

 

We really are only worried about complying with the code.  Code requires a vacancy sensor.

 

Occupany= lights turn on automatically when they sense motion, then turn off automatically when no motion is sensed after a period of time.

Vacancy= lights must be manually switched on, then turn off automatically when no motion is sensed after a period of time.

 

What does "else" do in a program?

 

Teken, how do you create key that allows your to disable a program?

 

thanks,

~Jay

 

that's specifically why I asked. So, I'll ask again, which motion sensor? The Insteon Motion sensor is not a vacancy sensor. I don't believe the code will allow you to emulate a vacancy sensor using a program.

[Teken]

I believe most places indicate the command and control must reside in the hardware. So Stu may be correct the ISY Series Controller may not be considered native in command and control.

 

Then again, I highly doubt any building inspector would know the difference if they walked into a room. Most of them would see the MS and call it good and I have never seen a inspector follow up and check to see if the lights actually operated on-off.

[Jay M]

We are using the Insteon motion sensor.  I don't know how specific the code is, or how picky the inspector will be.  It's my understanding that they are reasonable to work with.

 

We are in LA county.  We've spent a fortune on unrelated upgrades because of this one room.  We even had to replace fire sprinklers outside, and we needed a new alarm bell!  it's crazy.  I have no idea why we needed fire sprinkles outside in the first place.  I didn't know concrete and asphalt could burn. The new bell makes it harder for birds to make a nest within the bell.

 

If for some reason they don't allow the Insteon motion sensor, then how can we comply with code without screwing everything up?

 

~Jay

[larryllix]

See Techman's post #10 for alink to the usual solution.

 

The Vacancy sensor can only be an energy saving requirement and not a safety requirement. I doubt they will care as long as something turns the lights off.

 

If the On process can be manual then the automatic On isn't going to matter either.

[stusviews]

California building code Title 24 requires that the lights be manually switched on and automatically switched off. Being able to manually switch off the load is optional, but does not take the place of an automatic (timed) off. The state is very strict regarding Title 24 requirements, the inspector may or may not be.

 

You can emulate the requirement by using a program to turn the load on, definitely not a scene. Or you can install a Title 24 code compliant switch/sensor which is the method I use.

[Jay M]

thanks for the followup.  I hope we'll be ok.

 

~Jay

[stusviews]

A Title 24 compliant sensor can be connected to a Micro Module.

[lilyoyo1]

If control motion is switched off

and control motion is not switched on

 

then

Wait x minutes

Set light off

[stusviews]

Title 24 requires that the load be turned on manually only and turns off x minutes after the area is vacant (no motion). Turning the load off manually should occur immediately. The strict requirement is that the load NOT turn on without physical intervention.

 

A Title 24 compliant motion sensor wired to a Micro Module provides conformity to the California code as well as Insteon control. Not all wall sesors meet that condition. Here's a few that do:

 

https://smile.amazon.com/Leviton-OSSMT-GDW-Ultrasonic-Infrared-Multi-Technology/dp/B002NU6MDE/ref=pd_day0_60_2?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B002NU6MDE&pd_rd_r=56RP1TDZRQAFBFEA8AME&pd_rd_w=5vcSr&pd_rd_wg=uisdt&psc=1&refRID=56RP1TDZRQAFBFEA8AME

 

https://smile.amazon.com/TOPGREENER-Occupancy-Motion-NEUTRAL-REQUIRED/dp/B00LEZKFIW/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1480659312&sr=8-2&keywords=motion+sensor+title+24

 

https://smile.amazon.com/Enerlites-DWOS-J-W-Commercial-Infrared-Occupancy/dp/B0032C9T82/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1480659312&sr=8-13&keywords=motion+sensor+title+24

[Jay M]

thanks Stu.

 

I hope we won't need to go that route... but in case we do, I'll know what to do.  

 

 

~Jay