Why didn't this schedule work? (n00b question)

[MrBill]

New to Insteon and ISY. Not new to lighting control/home automation (at my prior residence I had a huge 65 device X-10 system on 4 house codes--it worked too--well, it worked 98.7% of the time...)

 

I started this new system with Smarthome's hub.  It took me all of 4 days to say I'm not putting up with these stupid limitations (i.e. Sunset/Sunrise can only be used in ONE schedule and if you want some devices Sunset to 11:00PM and others Sunset to Sunrise you're basically screwed).  Quite happy (I think) with the ISY994i ZW/IR Pro that I ordered to replace it (I don't like limitations, so I bought more features than I currently need).

 

So far, I've been able to explain "why" most things have happaned or not happaned... Have no idea what to think about why this simple schedule didn't work last night tho.  Here are the facts in pictures:

 

The "Christmas-All" Scene: http://imgur.com/a/NlZ1I

 

The Program: http://imgur.com/a/hgdsr

 

The log at the point the program correctly turned the Scene on at Sunset: http://imgur.com/a/wp29G

 

The log where the "off" schedule didn't work: http://imgur.com/a/O41bO

 

In the last log I included a few extra lines. First, You can see where I turned off the living room lamp as I went to bed. Next you can see where the program should have turned off the scene at 11:00 PM. Finally, you can see where I woke up at 11:28 PM and turned off Christmas with my phone because it hadn't gone off.

 

So the question is: Why didn't Christmas turn off last night?  It looks to me like it should have worked, and since that's the case I have no idea where to start troubleshooting....

 

 

[oberkc]

I believe your program should work.  I see no errors in it.  It is relatively simple.  I would look elsewhere.

 

To troubleshoot, I would experiment around with a few things.  Select the scene, and manually turn it on and off from the ISY admin panel.  Does it turn on and off?  Select the program from your list, right-click, and choose running the "then" path.  Then choose running the "else" path.  Do the lights turn on and off?

 

If the lights turn on and off reliably using these steps, we can take a closer look at the program.  I am, of course, assuming that you don't live in Antarctica where the sunset is after 11:00. 

 

My guess is that you have communication issues.  Lights turning on, but not off, suggests that the lights, themselves, may be the cause.  Also, make sure your PLM is not plugged into outlets and circuits that don't have other computer stuff and electronic gadgets.  Double-check that you have bridged the legs of your electrical system via dual-band devices (instructions are in most of the device manuals).  Like x-10, you need some type of phase coupler, whether a discreet device, or dual-band insteon devices.

[paulbates]

Hi Bill

Welcome to the forums!

 

To add a test to oberkc's list, try turning the scene on and off a number of times, like 10 times, using the phone or admin console directly. Do they go on and off perfectly 10 times in a row? If no, there is noise.

 

The trickier part is that it could be something like a dishswasher or other motor injecting noise specifically at that time. Can you think of any appliances or other things with motors or transformers that would be running then?

 

Paul

[MrBill]

I believe your program should work.  I see no errors in it.  It is relatively simple.  I would look elsewhere.

 

To troubleshoot, I would experiment around with a few things.  Select the scene, and manually turn it on and off from the ISY admin panel.  Does it turn on and off?  Select the program from your list, right-click, and choose running the "then" path.  Then choose running the "else" path.  Do the lights turn on and off?

 

If the lights turn on and off reliably using these steps, we can take a closer look at the program.  I am, of course, assuming that you don't live in Antarctica where the sunset is after 11:00. 

 

My guess is that you have communication issues.  Lights turning on, but not off, suggests that the lights, themselves, may be the cause.  Also, make sure your PLM is not plugged into outlets and circuits that don't have other computer stuff and electronic gadgets.  Double-check that you have bridged the legs of your electrical system via dual-band devices (instructions are in most of the device manuals).  Like x-10, you need some type of phase coupler, whether a discreet device, or dual-band insteon devices.

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

Something I should have mentioned is that the scene does reliably work.  Prior to yesterday the scene has been running from manual control (a button on a 6-button controller) for about 2 weeks.  Yesterday was the first day for the program tho. 

 

I just turned the scene on and off 12 times from the ISY.  Then I did it twice from the right click menu for running the "Then" and "Else" (BTW thanks for that tip... I hadn't found that context menu yet).

 

As far as "noise", there shouldn't have been any.  Almost everything else was off at 11PM (except Christmas-all), both occupants of the house in bed asleep.  Even the furnace motor shouldn't have been running at the point because it was too soon after a 12 degree setback at 10:30PM (Nest because the power company discounts too much in the summer to not Nest).  The spa motor should have been running, but wasn't due to my error when I changed the schedule yesterday (Pentair, not ISY or insteon).  I do remember from my old X10 system the clue that what turns on but won't turn off is usually the load itself making noise.   I don't think that is the case here, because I've been using the scene manually for awhile.

 

I can also confirm there are dual band Insteon devices on both electrical phases.  Also every insteon device was cleared and re-linked when I converted to the ISY controller.  (I didn't do that at first, I let it crawl the devices--later tho after some un-predicted things happened I deleted every device and re-added them one by one clearing all previous links and only using the ISY to re-link. That seemed to solve any problems I had initially)

 

Northern Hemisphere, Sunset was at 4:57PM.

 

I am not clear how Insteon actually communicates.  I know it's dual band, power line and radio. I thought it re-tried and "knew" if the action occurred.  In comparison, I did know how X-10 communications worked all the way down to 1's and 0's and why you didn't want to use housecode M unless you really really needed to (collision issues).

 

What I really can't explain with this issue, is why the ISY log shows the event at the correct time, but no response from devices, until I used my phone at 11:28 to do it manually.

[paulbates]

I am not clear how Insteon actually communicates.  I know it's dual band, power line and radio. I thought it re-tried and "knew" if the action occurred.  In comparison, I did know how X-10 communications worked all the way down to 1's and 0's and why you didn't want to use housecode M unless you really really needed to (collision issues).

 

What am am really at a lose to explain with this issue, is why the ISY log shows the event at the correct time, but no response from devices, until I used my phone at 11:28 to do it manually.

 

At a high level, the signalling concept is the same as X10. Binary information is encoded and sent to the device between swings of the powerline phases. Insteon is a different format signal and stronger and fits more information in each phases.. so its faster. The wireless portion should be considered bridging, and the network handles it at the device / network layer and propagates the signal

 

When turning devices on and off directly, the device sends a confirmation signal back to the sender, and a configurable number of retries is performed until it gives up. This concept is important, in that default ISY scenes do not look for a confirmation back. Some devices support "Advanced PLM Communication", you can hand tweak that and I have a few virtual circuits on switches and keypads where I've done that.

 

I would say to make sure that the noise  investigation is thoroughly exhausted before attempting to hand tweak retries on a devices that might support advanced PLM communicaiton. It can generate a lot of insteon traffic that could interfere with other activities, and is a last resort IMO.

 

Paul

[oberkc]

Prior to yesterday the scene has been running from manual control (a button on a 6-button controller) for about 2 weeks.  Yesterday was the first day for the program tho. 

 

A scene triggered from a keypad command does not guarantee that a scene triggered via the PLM will work with the same reliability.  They are at different locations and the PLM may be on a circuit with lots of computer and network crap.

 

I really do not think this is a program issue.  Based upon your images, it appeared to me that the program ran, and that the ISY thought everything was off (yet it was not).  This tends to point to comm issues in my mind.  Temporarily change the times in the program to trigger one minute from now and watch it execute via the program list.  Does it?  After it runs the THEN path, the program status would show true.  After it runs the ELSE path, the program status should show FALSE.  Does it?

 

 

Almost everything else was off at 11PM (except Christmas-all), both occupants of the house in bed asleep.

 

 

Computers?  Networks?  Routers?  Modems?  UPS?  Do you have a UPS?  Make sure the PLM is NOT plugged into filtered and conditioned power.

 

I am not clear how Insteon actually communicates.  I know it's dual band, power line and radio. I thought it re-tried and "knew" if the action occurred.

 

I am certainly no expert at this, but I understand "direct" commands repeat and acknowledge.  Controlling a device directly (via admin console, or by program) may get more reliable results.  Controlling via insteon scenes can be faster and more convenient, and can tolerate failures in indivual devices, but may not have the individual device acknowledgement.

[mwester]

...As far as "noise", there shouldn't have been any.  Almost everything else was off at 11PM (except Christmas-all), both occupants of the house in bed asleep.  Even the furnace motor shouldn't have been running at the point because it was too soon after a 12 degree setback at 10:30PM (Nest because the power company discounts too much in the summer to not Nest).  The spa motor should have been running, but wasn't due to my error when I changed the schedule yesterday (Pentair, not ISY or insteon).  I do remember from my old X10 system the clue that what turns on but won't turn off is usually the load itself making noise.   I don't think that is the case here, because I've been using the scene manually for awhile....

 

Welcome to hell.   "Noise" as far as Insteon devices are controlled has a different definition than most electricians or anyone who regularly works with powerlines might be familiar.

 

Got a phone charger plugged in anywhere?  That could be what's interrupting your signal.

 

Got a TV set?  Doesn't matter if it's on or off, but is it plugged in?  That's probably putting some sort of noise on the power-line.

 

Got *ANYTHING* with a switching power supply (which is pretty much everything, even your toaster if it has a digital display or control!)?  That's putting noise on the power line that's interfering with the Insteon signal.

 

Think the RF (dual band) will work around the noise?  Think again!  It turns out that the Insteon dual-band devices need to be able to detect the zero-crossing point on the power line in order to use the RF portion -- and that's exactly where that power-line noise is that makes it unable to use the power-line in the first place!  So, if your problem is weak signal, or different phases, or a transformer, then the dual-band works -- but if your problem is noise, well, the dual-band *may be* useful.  Or not.  Depends.

 

The solution?  According to Smart Home, you put Filterlincs ($$$ for them) on everything.  And I mean EVERYTHING.  If it has a digital display or control, or if it uses a switching power supply, or if you don't know if it needs it, then put a Filterlinc on it.

 

My solution?   My house is littered with over a dozen Filterlincs with power-strips and extension cords, into which everything (*EVERYTHING*) in the house plugs -- even floor lamps (because LED bulbs all have switching power supplies in them)!

 

The long-term solution?  Z-Wave.  I'm moving everything over to z-wave.  So far, it's been a dream - wonderful, always works.  The only problem areas for me are finding replacements for the Insteon keypads, and I have an outbuilding that's out of z-wave range.

[MrBill]

There is a computer in the house that stays on 24/7 (to upload weather station data) and there are two UPS's on that circuit.  I don't {{think}} it's the same circuit but I'll verify that.   The ISY and PLM are currently plugged in near the entertainment center in the living room.  I'm not sure where they will end up, but that location was where I easily had Ethernet, and had a completely unused duplex outlet.

 

In reality tho, I haven't really had what I think are noise issues (from X10 days I know that song and dance well), but based on recent posts above I bet that is what the problem is.  The troubling part of course is that the "noise" wasn't present any other time that I know of, just 11PM last night (when virtually everything was off--the phones were plugged in tho, which they weren't during the day.)

 

As a band-aid I did two more very simple programs to turn 'Christmas-all' off again at 11:04PM and again at 11:28PM.  I'll watch the log and see what happens. 

 

The weird part is the system seems to work really well, except at the one single time that I actually wanted it to work (because I was asleep).

[oberkc]

The ISY and PLM are currently plugged in near the entertainment center in the living room. 

 

  Of course, cable boxes, TVs, bluray, etc.... could all be issues.

 

As an experiment, get an extension cable and plug it into an outlet on another circuit.  See if that solves the problem.  If so, I would take that as a clue.

 

I am not to the extreme of MWester, but I filter ALL entertainment "centers", and ALL UPS.  I have found that my insteon system can be made to work pretty well.  I also use some Z-wave.  As a data point, I find that my x-10 devices are no longer reliable (tried using some for Christmas lights....no luck). 

[MrBill]

As an experiment, get an extension cable and plug it into an outlet on another circuit.  See if that solves the problem.  If so, I would take that as a clue.

 

The problem is I can't reproduce the problem!!   It works perfectly during the day.  Actually the whole system seems to work pretty perfectly.

 

The only problem occurred ONCE, at 11PM last night.  Which is why I assumed I did something wrong with the first program, or the ISY in general.  (I've ruled that part out, based on your help.)  I guess I'll just have to wait and see at this point.  

 

I just traced down the circuit the ISY and PLM are plugged into. It's probably like one of the best existing circuits in the house for this use actually.  I've always known this extra duplex at the entertainment center was added after the fact.  I don't know the reason it was added but the only things that seem to be on the circuit is overhead lights in two different unfinished areas of the lower level (sure those lights might be noise producers but they were OFF at 11PM last night.  I couldn't find any other light or outlet on the circuit in the entire house.  The breaker label just says "storage room", the breaker is probably wrongly sized as a 20, I'll check that later but none of the romex in those areas is yellow.

[stusviews]

The breaker label just says "storage room", the breaker is probably wrongly sized as a 20, I'll check that later but none of the romex in those areas is yellow.

 

The current capacity depends on the gauge of the wire, not the color of the cable. For 15 amp circuits, a minimum of 14AWG is requires, 20 amp circuits need 12AWG.

[MrBill]

The current capacity depends on the gauge of the wire, not the color of the cable. For 15 amp circuits, a minimum of 14AWG is requires, 20 amp circuits need 12AWG.

 

Thanks. I'm aware of that, this house was built 10 years ago, in the era that 12 gauge romex normally has an outer jacket that's colored yellow.  Lower Level/Basement ceilings are 12 foot tho, and the main panel is in a finished area.  That's why I said I'll check later, its not easy.  It's actually pretty hard to get into the main panel, I wish I could shoot whoever did the basement finishing job.