Resolved Suggestion: Label Global and Local sliders

[Mark Sanctuary]

Can we add two words to the slider labels.

 

"Global" for sliders that control ISY and Insteon network settings.

"Local" for sliders that control only ISY settings.

 

I have created a example idea below. Thanks guys.

 

[Michel Kohanim]

Mark,

 

Sounds good but Global is not the right word since it's only applied at the scene level.

 

With kind regards,

 

Can we add two words to the slider labels.

 

"Global" for sliders that control ISY and Insteon network settings.

"Local" for sliders that control only ISY settings.

 

I have created a example idea below. Thanks guys.

 

[Mark Sanctuary]

Something like: "ISY & Device" "ISY Only"

 

Do you have some ideas on the correct word(s)?

 

I will sleep on it and think so more tomorrow.

[sceaton]

I agree that this would clear up my confusion from yesterday

 

I think that the term "local" should be reserved for the default onlevel/ramp rate at the insteon device. This is how the smarthome documentation refers to it, and everyone usually STARTS reading that documentation when they install their switches. So they've been taught (I've been taught) that a "local onlevel/ramp rate" is that which happens when you physically press a switch ... the light fades up to the over seconds/minutes.

 

Maybe "Controller OnLevel" and "Controller Ramp Rate" when a controller in a scene is selected and

 

"Scene OnLevel" or "ISY OnLevel" or "Program OnLevel" when the scene is selected? Not sure on this one.

 

I agree that this needs to be more clearly defined. Maybe even so far as to also change the background screen color of the sliders area to differentiate what it is you're changing.

[Mark Sanctuary]

Cool! A discussion on one of my suggestions; my suggestions usually sit dormant without much

debate. I thought about it for a bit and there is only two places where the data can get stored.

1. [*:tw8qbkyd]ISY
   [*:tw8qbkyd]Device

And here is the three ways I can think of how to expressing it.

1. [*:tw8qbkyd]ISY Only
   [*:tw8qbkyd]Device Only (not sure when this would be used)
   [*:tw8qbkyd]ISY & Device

Although very good ideas; I think using the words controller, program, and scene is confusing or

indirect in description. Plus the words controller and responder is used in the scene linking terms.

[sceaton]

Yes, but they can be stored on the Device in TWO contexts ... as the local level/rate as well as parameters of an insteon group. So if you push the button "on" ... the switch reacts according to its LOCAL level/rate. If you control it from a linked device (say as a 3-way, or an insteon "scene"), it reacts based on the level/rate for that group.

 

THIRDLY, from what I understand from yesterdays discussion, the ISY is a separate controller, which has it's OWN level/rate by which the device reacts.

 

So you can click on a node in My Lighting and set the LOCAL (to the device) level/rate.

 

Then you create a scene and click the scene name and set all of the levels/rates (used when controlled by the ISY)

 

THEN you add a controller to the scene (say a KPL button), click THAT, and set levels/rates when THAT is the controller of the scene.

 

It gets confusing since all three of these levels/ramp rates can be accessed from one Scene item in the network tree. (Click a Scene Name, click a Controller name, click a Device name)

 

SOMEhow the context in which the level/rate sliders appear needs to be clarified.

[sceaton]

After re-reading your post, I agree that "Local" should be used, but it should be used when adjusting the node's level/rate ... aka the insteon "Local onlevel and ramp rate"

 

Also, there isn't a place where you can change the on level/ramp rate for a device in BOTH ISY and the Device. This is what I assumed was the case yesterday, but in fact, you have separate controls for when the ISY is the controller and a device is added to a scene as a "controller".

 

I think the Local level/rate needs to be labeled, that should be easy. The most non-obvious part, IMO, is that clicking a controller inside a scene, and clicking the scene name presents you with SEPARATE level/rate sliders.

 

Honestly, at first, I thought that once a device was a member of the scene, by clicking that device in the tree, you were adjusting the devices level/rate FOR THAT SCENE. That's not the case; you're adjusting the LOCAL level/rate. I then thought that by clicking the scene name, it was just a shortcut to see all of the device sliders at once and use the handy"Apply Changes to All Devices" shortcut. This of course is changing the level/rate to be used when the scene is called by ISY.

[sceaton]

Sorry for the multiple posts ... the more I think about it, the more ideas I get...

 

I think it might actually be helpful that when you click a node under a Scene, the level/rate sliders adjust that node as a member of the Scene, NOT it's local level/rate.

 

I think the local level/rate should be more difficult to adjust. Set them up in the MyLighting section, and then thats it.

 

OTHERWISE, I think they should be colored the same. When I click a node in MyLighting or a node under a scene name, even though they're different colors, I'm adjusting the same level/rate sliders. The different colors confused me.

 

Okay, i'll shutup now.

[Mark Sanctuary]

Local to what, I see Michels point local to ISY or local to device?

 

I am only talking about the sliders labeling in the scene list. Not in other places.

[sceaton]

From Page 18 of the Switchlinc Manual (http://www.smarthome.com/manuals/2476d.pdf)

 

SwitchLinc Dimmer can store many On-Levels and Ramp Rates in its memory.

 

Local On-Level and Ramp Rate values apply when you tap the Paddle Top or Paddle Bottom on SwitchLinc Dimmer itself.

 

Remote-Controlled On-Level and Ramp Rate values apply when another INSTEON Controller tells SwitchLinc Dimmer to turn on or turn off. SwitchLinc Dimmer stores separate On-Levels and Ramp Rates for each button on each Controller that it is linked to. These On-Levels and Ramp Rates can all be the same, or they can be different.

 

I'm just saying that I think the sliders should be labeled EVERYWHERE; in the scene list (when ISY is the controller), in the controller list, and in the node (local level) list, with the term "Local" being reserved for when the slider is actually adjusting the Local level/rate of a device.

 

I think the solution is to define the context of the slider screen. You're either adjusting values for LOCAL or a CONTROLLER. There is only ONE local, but can be MULTIPLE controllers.

 

So the screen should say something like

Context:

where is a node name (like a KPL button) OR "ISY" where the controller is the ISY.

 

Except that "Context" is rather abstract. Probably best to just spell it out:

"These sliders adjust On Levels and Ramp rates when controlled by "

 

I see where you mean "local to the ISY" but The ISY does not have a "Local" level/rate. It does not turn on, so Local should not describe the ISY.

 

am I making sense? Maybe I'm misunderstanding something ...

[Mark Sanctuary]

Suggestion is to label a scenes sliders to show where the data is going to be stored, when

the level/rate sliders used.

 

...It is either going to be ISY Stored. (ISY == Controller)

This word controller is already used so instead the suggestion is to use ISY instead.

 

...Or the data is going to be Device Stored. (Device == dimmers, switches, etc)

In the ISY gui most everywhere devices are called devices.

 

...Or the data is going to be ISY & Device Stored.

Most sliders are doing this, except when KPL loads and KPL non-loads are in the same scene.

 

Referencing other works is not necessary either because, the ISY uses different jargon

than them anyways. (example: some works call them scenes but ISY calls them groups)

 

Please note that the ISY has a small memory footprint so the long standing idea is less

is more. A wordy approach would not conform to this.

 

I really am just leaving it up to them to make a good choice, I am only suggesting

the overall idea. Thanks for the discussion. I apologize if I have been challenging.

[Michel Kohanim]

Mark and sceaton,

 

Thank you so very much for the feedback. I think we are close:

1. Mark, I am not sure what you mean by "Stored". ISY stores everything and, as such, the terminology gets more confusing. But, I like the idea of "Local"

2. sceaton, at the moment, I love your idea to spell it out:

These sliders adjust On Levels and Ramp rates when controlled by " where controller could either by ISY or the actual controller's name

 

So, this way, we should have the following:

 

Scene - Adjusts the on levels/ramp rates when activated by ISY

Controller - Adjusts the on levels/ramp rates when activated by Controller

--- Add local when the Controller = one of the sliders on the right

 

What do you guys think?

With kind regards,

[Mark Sanctuary]

Scene - Adjusts the on levels/ramp rates when activated by ISY

Controller - Adjusts the on levels/ramp rates when activated by Controller

--- Add local when the Controller = one of the sliders on the right

 

Stored means where the link/level/rate data is stored. You always have a copy of the data in the ISY. You don't always have a copy of the data in the device. As in the case when the keypadlinc load with non-load you don't store the data in the keypadlinc only in the ISY.

 

So your saying these would be the four naming options that would end up over the slider names like I demoed above?

 

Scene == Stored ISY & Device

Scene Local == Stored Device Only

Controller == Stored ISY & Device

Controller Local == Stored ISY Only

 

I can hang with the Scene, Controller, Local idea if that is what you go with.

 

The end result I am trying to reach is a way to see if the scene is going to need me to run it from the ISY directly, because it is not going to run with a complete result from the device.

[Michel Kohanim]

Mark,

 

Thank you!

 

Anything you do with ISY, and if it has any impact to any device, it's stored.

 

I am afraid that the concept of "Stored" may have some other connotations that would require more explanation rather than acting as clarification.

 

You already have the answer to your last question. The scene itself will ALWAYS run from ISY. There's no other way.

 

The controllers within a scene, will ONLY run if someone actually/physically alters their state. You cannot run controller scenes from ISY. You simply can't because INSTEON does not let you act on the behalf of another device.

 

Now, the last item is the on level/ramp rate for the controller itself when it's controlling the scene. Obviously, since you are physically changing that controller, THEREFORE the on level and ramp rates are the local ones.

 

So, what am I missing?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Scene - Adjusts the on levels/ramp rates when activated by ISY

Controller - Adjusts the on levels/ramp rates when activated by Controller

--- Add local when the Controller = one of the sliders on the right

 

Stored means where the link/level/rate data is stored. You always have a copy of the data in the ISY. You don't always have a copy of the data in the device. As in the case when the keypadlinc load with non-load you don't store the data in the keypadlinc only in the ISY.

 

So your saying these would be the four naming options that would end up over the slider names like I demoed above?

 

Scene == Stored ISY & Device

Scene Local == Stored Device Only

Controller == Stored ISY & Device

Controller Local == Stored ISY Only

 

I can hang with the Scene, Controller, Local idea if that is what you go with.

 

The end result I am trying to reach is a way to see if the scene is going to need me to run it from the ISY directly, because it is not going to run with a complete result from the device.

[Sub-Routine]

Now you are getting me confused. I like the the slider functions as they are. Once I figured it out, with some help from this forum, it seems natural. I don't need any more labels. I only have to glance at the tree on the left to know what value I am changing.

 

This is an Insteon feature and I think the ISY uses it to the best possible advantage.

 

Perhaps a better explanation in the documentation is all that is necessary.

 

---

The Local Level and Ramp Rate are poked into the devices when the sliders are changed, and the lamp level is changed. At first I thought I was just changing the level. I didn't realize only the buttons at the bottom just changed the level.

 

It should be explained, perhaps with a pop up, that pressing the set button on the device will then lock-in the new local lamp level.

 

I was working on programming the level/ramp rate equivalents: Select a ramp rate and the program will set the proper lamp level for an x seconds local ramp rate and then instruct the user to press the set button twice.

Then the ISY was introduced

 

I usually change the local level/ramp rate by using the ISY to poke in the new values and resetting the power, often with the circuit breaker to change more than one device at a time. And it's not often enough to be a bother.

 

Thank you,

Rand

[Michel Kohanim]

Rand,

 

And, as usual, you come to the rescue!

 

You are right right on about the pop-up asking the users to air-gap their non-KPL devices when the local settings have changed.

 

As far as the labels, anything that would make it easier for the users to understand the relationship between ISY/devices/scenes is surely a step in the right direction. I think the main issue is that have not been able to efficiently explain this relationship nor has it been captured on ISY in such a way that makes sense.

 

Thanks so very much,

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Now you are getting me confused. I like the the slider functions as they are. Once I figured it out, with some help from this forum, it seems natural. I don't need any more labels. I only have to glance at the tree on the left to know what value I am changing.

 

This is an Insteon feature and I think the ISY uses it to the best possible advantage.

 

Perhaps a better explanation in the documentation is all that is necessary.

 

---

The Local Level and Ramp Rate are poked into the devices when the sliders are changed, and the lamp level is changed. At first I thought I was just changing the level. I didn't realize only the buttons at the bottom just changed the level.

 

It should be explained, perhaps with a pop up, that pressing the set button on the device will then lock-in the new local lamp level.

 

I was working on programming the level/ramp rate equivalents: Select a ramp rate and the program will set the proper lamp level for an x seconds local ramp rate and then instruct the user to press the set button twice.

Then the ISY was introduced

 

I usually change the local level/ramp rate by using the ISY to poke in the new values and resetting the power, often with the circuit breaker to change more than one device at a time. And it's not often enough to be a bother.

 

Thank you,

Rand

[Sub-Routine]

Rand,

 

And, as usual, you come to the rescue!

 

You are right right on about the pop-up asking the users to air-gap their non-KPL devices when the local settings have changed.

 

As far as the labels, anything that would make it easier for the users to understand the relationship between ISY/devices/scenes is surely a step in the right direction. I think the main issue is that have not been able to efficiently explain this relationship nor has it been captured on ISY in such a way that makes sense.

 

"Grasshopper,

It is the Insteon protocol which you must master. Once Insteon is understood total control of all devices will be possible.

Master"

 

Personally, I think the protocol has been captured very well on the ISY. And just keeps on getting better. Good Job!

 

Thank you,

Rand

[Mark Sanctuary]

First of all I am starting to feel the Insteon force but have not yet mastered it, young jedi in training. Waaamaam Waaamaam ((lightsaber noises))

 

I can unplug the ISY and most all my scenes work except for the ones I use a trigger like this one below as a pass-through then the ISY is running that one and not the device.

 

If
   Control 'Family Movie Time Button (B)' is On
Then
   Set  Scene 'Family Movie Time Scene' On

Really all I would like to see is a label on the keypadlinc load sliders that can’t actually store level/rates on the keypadlinc. Then when I see that I will know the sliders are “ISY Localâ€. This will tell me that I will have to do something like my little program above to get those ISY local levels to work. I don't care about the rest; I did them in the example in the first post with global/local just to keep the text centering and spacing even.

 

I vote for Rand's popup idea, its a good one. He is very good with this Insteon stuff, I used his programs often before my ISY days.

[Michel Kohanim]

Mark,

 

Cool. It's settled then. We'll try to come up with some type of dialog/text to describe different scenarios.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

 

First of all I am starting to feel the Insteon force but have not yet mastered it, young jedi in training. Waaamaam Waaamaam ((lightsaber noises))

 

I can unplug the ISY and most all my scenes work except for the ones I use a trigger like this one below as a pass-through then the ISY is running that one and not the device.

 

If
   Control 'Family Movie Time Button (B)' is On
Then
   Set  Scene 'Family Movie Time Scene' On

Really all I would like to see is a label on the keypadlinc load sliders that can’t actually store level/rates on the keypadlinc. Then when I see that I will know the sliders are “ISY Local”. This will tell me that I will have to do something like my little program above to get those ISY local levels to work. I don't care about the rest; I did them in the example in the first post with global/local just to keep the text centering and spacing even.

 

I vote for Rand's popup idea, its a good one. He is very good with this Insteon stuff, I used his programs often before my ISY days.

[Mark Sanctuary]

Thanks that is exactly what we need. Thanks this was a fun thread.

[Mark Sanctuary]

I broght this over from another post. Consistent colors across the board. Consistent naming everywhere in the design. Like this?

 

Controller

Controlsponder

Responder

Responder ISY Local

Scene

Scene ISY Local

[Michel Kohanim]

Mark,

 

Thanks so very much. The colors are pretty much consistent. I am still a little baffled by:

ISY Local/Scene ISY Local

 

What do they mean?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

I broght this over from another post. Consistent colors across the board. Consistent naming everywhere in the design. Like this?

 

Controller

Controlsponder

Responder

Responder ISY Local

Scene

Scene ISY Local

[Mark Sanctuary]

Don't really know what "scene" is for I just brought it down from one of your earlier posts.

 

Scene - Adjusts the on levels/ramp rates when activated by ISY

Controller - Adjusts the on levels/ramp rates when activated by Controller

--- Add local when the Controller = one of the sliders on the right

It hit me while we where out of town this weekend; ISY local is the keypadlinc load that also has a same keypadlinc non-load button in a mutual scene. This is the device(s) that will always need to be run from the ISY by user or ISY program in order to see the ISY local level otherwise the keypadlinc default level is used when the keypadlinc non-load button is pressed.

 

Updated color labels

Controller

Controlsponder

Responder

Responder ISY Local (Is KPL load only when included with mutual KPL non-load)

Scene Name

 

Also I am wondering if the sliders don't really need more words just the device names need the “Controllerâ€, “Responder â€, and “Responder ISY Local†colorization instead in the scene sub window which would then match the tree.

[Mark Sanctuary]

ISY Local tree example:

 

 

ISY Local scene example:

 

[Mark Sanctuary]

ISY Controller tree example:

 

 

ISY Controller scene example: