kohai Posted January 3, 2017 Posted January 3, 2017 A question I often think about. If people like me are adding z-wave devices today (January 2017), what level of specs should they look for as a minimum requirement (to future proof their devices as much as possible)? Good things to have to maximize functionality: - Z-wave Plus (is that the same as gen5 or 500?)? - Supports repeating signals for those line-powered devices (110v)? - Support repeating secure signals so things like locks are happy? - Supports scenes? - If a dimmer version is available, consider that one? Things that are outdated: - Z-wave regular, the non-plus version? Gen4? - ???? What do people think?
Teken Posted January 3, 2017 Posted January 3, 2017 The two major ones are indeed Generation 5 and instant status the rest doesn't mean too much.
andyf0 Posted January 3, 2017 Posted January 3, 2017 I think those are excellent questions, given a house that is 90% Z-Wave. Some personal thoughts: I wouldn't buy a non-Z-Wave Plus switch anymore. There don't seem to be any Z-Wave Plus outlets yet. So far, Z-Wave scenes don't seem to be working with ISY yet. Although my Leviton outlet (which supports scenes) module is very old and is not listed anywhere anymore. Pretty sure Gen5 does not mean Z-Wave Plus. Look for the Z-Wave Plus logo on devices.
Teken Posted January 3, 2017 Posted January 3, 2017 All of the following means the same thing: Gen 5, Z-Wave Plus, 500 Series: http://www.vesternet.com/what-is-z-wave-plus
asbril Posted January 3, 2017 Posted January 3, 2017 A question I often think about. If people like me are adding z-wave devices today (January 2017), what level of specs should they look for as a minimum requirement (to future proof their devices as much as possible)? Good things to have to maximize functionality: - Z-wave Plus (is that the same as gen5 or 500?)? - Supports repeating signals for those line-powered devices (110v)? - Support repeating secure signals so things like locks are happy? - Supports scenes? - If a dimmer version is available, consider that one? Things that are outdated: - Z-wave regular, the non-plus version? Gen4? - ???? What do people think? Status Reporting
andyf0 Posted January 3, 2017 Posted January 3, 2017 All of the following means the same thing: Gen 5, Z-Wave Plus, 500 Series: http://www.vesternet.com/what-is-z-wave-plus That simply states that Z-Wave Plus = Gen5, not that Gen5 = Z-Wave Plus. Aeotec has advertised Gen5 products for a very long time but not stated Z-Wave Plus or displayed the logo. I'm not sure that Z-Wave Plus was even defined prior to Aeotecs Gen5 products. I'm sure there must be software enhancements involved in Z-Wave Plus taking advantage of Gen5 hardware.
Teken Posted January 3, 2017 Posted January 3, 2017 That simply states that Z-Wave Plus = Gen5, not that Gen5 = Z-Wave Plus. Aeotec has advertised Gen5 products for a very long time but not stated Z-Wave Plus or displayed the logo. I'm not sure that Z-Wave Plus was even defined prior to Aeotecs Gen5 products. I'm sure there must be software enhancements involved in Z-Wave Plus taking advantage of Gen5 hardware. http://z-wavealliance.org/z-wave_plus_certification/ Everything I have seen from various hardware makers state the same thing. As noted in the Z-Wave Alliance link provided here all of it means the same thing in the big picture. I only referenced the Aeotec product because it was the first thing that came in from Google.
andyf0 Posted January 3, 2017 Posted January 3, 2017 Yes, now they certify for Z-Wave Plus. But when I bought my first Aeotec Multisensor, Z-Wave Plus was not yet around. I'm guessing a firmware update would make them Z-Wave Plus compliant. Z-Wave Plus devices seem to have a Z-Wave Plus node like this switch. switch.txt My Aeotec Multisensor doesn't have this node. multisensor.txt
Teken Posted January 3, 2017 Posted January 3, 2017 Even with Z-Wave Plus it doesn't mean by default it supports *Instant Status* which really is laughable. As someone also noted even having both doesn't mean it supports basic scenes?!?! The whole intent of Gen 5 was to *hopefully* bring all the random vendors into following a common standard. The fact you can literally purchase what I consider dollar store products because of the look and feel of some of these terrible designs. Only to find out some of the key features aren't supported en-mass. The biggest fault in this Z-Wave protocol is no two vendors offer the exact same support! In my books all of these are epic fails in using Z-Wave and thus I have waited for this Gong Show to finalize. Having been in dozens of homes all sporting Z-Wave which offers the same cheap look as X-10. These people should be embarrassed in making their homes look so toy like.
paulbates Posted January 3, 2017 Posted January 3, 2017 Even with Z-Wave Plus it doesn't mean by default it supports *Instant Status* which really is laughable. As someone also noted even having both doesn't mean it supports basic scenes?!?! The whole intent of Gen 5 was to *hopefully* bring all the random vendors into following a common standard. The fact you can literally purchase what I consider dollar store products because of the look and feel of some of these terrible designs. Only to find out some of the key features aren't supported en-mass. The biggest fault in this Z-Wave protocol is no two vendors offer the exact same support! I have waited for this Gong Show to finalize. Having been in dozens of homes all sporting Z-Wave which offers the same cheap look as X-10. At one level I look at it this way too, a multi-vendor model where the standards have not uniformly, horizontally passed the jello state. I don't have any zwave so maybe that's not completely fair, but at the same time its the reason I've also stayed with Insteon. Virtual lighting control with easy to understand and use keypads, that report status and scene control is one of my highest requirements. The GE and Cooper keypads are confusing to look at & operate IMO, multi-button presses to activate lights. To Teken's point, the Leviton vizia zwave keypads look like the Leviton 4 button x10 keypads that I removed 6 years ago. None of them are really less expensive than a keypadlinc. Thanks to Kohai, this was a good point-in-time reality check. Paul
Teken Posted January 3, 2017 Posted January 3, 2017 At one level I look at it this way too, a multi-vendor model where the standards have not uniformly, horizontally passed the jello state. I don't have any zwave so maybe that's not completely fair, but at the same time its the reason I've also stayed with Insteon. Virtual lighting control with easy to understand and use keypads, that report status and scene control is one of my highest requirements. The GE and Cooper keypads are confusing to look at & operate IMO, multi-button presses to activate lights. To Teken's point, the Leviton vizia zwave keypads look like the Leviton 4 button x10 keypads that I removed 6 years ago. None of them are really less expensive than a keypadlinc. Thanks to Kohai, this was a good point-in-time reality check. Paul Agreed, it appears Paul and I are once again reliving several similar threads of where we expected HA to be. Since 2017 has only started I will throw in my $0.00000000000000000000000000001 of thought and point of view. - Z-Wave: The alliance should force every member who makes such hardware to follow and use Gen 5. - Scenes: I have no clue what that even means in Z-Wave terms? Can someone tell me what that means for those of us who obviously enjoy the very same using Insteon. Are they saying a person can actually buy a device and it can't be linked to another device?!?! - Healing, include, exclude: Of all the things I have tracked and read about this I just have to shake my head and laugh out loud. The very fact people actually have to exclude a device before it even gets *Included* is quite laughable. Then you have the moronic notion someone has to tell a device where it is??? I didn't buy home automation to do more work . . . I bought it so I could do less and enjoy the comforts of my home while offering more safety, security, and less we forget convenience! - Beaming / What Ever: I've noted in the past many people offering insight about how this beaming is supposed to work. Based on real world use and practical hands on - what a bunch of horse sh^t. To be fair to the Z-Wave camp many of the homes I have seen are using generation 1-4 devices. I have only seen two houses outfitted with dedicated Gen 5 hardware and this is to compliment the primary Insteon network. Because as of this writing no one has created a KPL that matches the Insteon offering. To counter some of the blushing Insteon compliments I do have to say the Smartlabs company really needs to step up to the plate in real security, energy monitoring, and for God's sakes. Let 3rd parties start integrating Insteon chips into their hardware like UDI.
asbril Posted January 4, 2017 Posted January 4, 2017 Agreed, it appears Paul and I are once again reliving several similar threads of where we expected HA to be. Since 2017 has only started I will throw in my $0.00000000000000000000000000001 of thought and point of view. - Z-Wave: The alliance should force every member who makes such hardware to follow and use Gen 5. - Scenes: I have no clue what that even means in Z-Wave terms? Can someone tell me what that means for those of us who obviously enjoy the very same using Insteon. Are they saying a person can actually buy a device and it can't be linked to another device?!?! - Healing, include, exclude: Of all the things I have tracked and read about this I just have to shake my head and laugh out loud. The very fact people actually have to exclude a device before it even gets *Included* is quite laughable. Then you have the moronic notion someone has to tell a device where it is??? I didn't buy home automation to do more work . . . I bought it so I could do less and enjoy the comforts of my home while offering more safety, security, and less we forget convenience! - Beaming / What Ever: I've noted in the past many people offering insight about how this beaming is supposed to work. Based on real world use and practical hands on - what a bunch of horse sh^t. To be fair to the Z-Wave camp many of the homes I have seen are using generation 1-4 devices. I have only seen two houses outfitted with dedicated Gen 5 hardware and this is to compliment the primary Insteon network. Because as of this writing no one has created a KPL that matches the Insteon offering. To counter some of the blushing Insteon compliments I do have to say the Smartlabs company really needs to step up to the plate in real security, energy monitoring, and for God's sakes. Let 3rd parties start integrating Insteon chips into their hardware like UDI. Having one manufacturer only, as is the case of Insteon, is for me a serious weakness. Furthermore, the PLM needs replacement every so often. Insteon may still have some advantages but my bet is entirely on Zwave.
paulbates Posted January 4, 2017 Posted January 4, 2017 Having one manufacturer only, as is the case of Insteon, is for me a serious weakness. Furthermore, the PLM needs replacement every so often. Insteon may still have some advantages but my bet is entirely on Zwave. Its fair to say you have to decide what benefits work for you and what problems you can live with
kohai Posted January 4, 2017 Author Posted January 4, 2017 Having one manufacturer only, as is the case of Insteon, is for me a serious weakness. Furthermore, the PLM needs replacement every so often. Insteon may still have some advantages but my bet is entirely on Zwave. Ditto here. I don't like the single vendor lock in with Insteon and I definitely am not going to implement a system that relies on a PLM that everyone knows dies every 2 years and the manufacturer is unable or unwilling to release a version that is more reliable than that.
stusviews Posted January 4, 2017 Posted January 4, 2017 There's only one vendor for the ISY portal and that's on a two year subscription basis. I also subscribe to the PLM for two years, but sometimes I get more than that at no additional cost
Teken Posted January 5, 2017 Posted January 5, 2017 There's only one vendor for the ISY portal and that's on a two year subscription basis. I also subscribe to the PLM for two years, but sometimes I get more than that at no additional cost I believe you're the father of the quoted phrase: The PLM is a subscription As I look over some of the replies along with many of the pros vs cons of each protocol. One can not have a discussion about HA with out adding in ZigBee. If there is one protocol which is a complete hot mess this single protocol has caused me and tens of millions of others more angst and frustration then any other. Supposedly the ZigBee Alliance is working on ratifying the next Gen 3? Where it will be a unified protocol of energy, home automation, security, etc. If history is any indicator it will only take the next 10 years for said standard to be released and adopted enmass. By that time I expect to have seen greater advancements from both Insteon / Z-Wave. Less we forget maybe Apple will come out with yet another icon for the iPhone proclaiming *Hey look Apple Home Kit has a new icon* LOL . . .
kohai Posted January 5, 2017 Author Posted January 5, 2017 There's only one vendor for the ISY portal and that's on a two year subscription basis. I also subscribe to the PLM for two years, but sometimes I get more than that at no additional cost The ISY portal is single vendor but it is an actively developed product that they take ownership of and fix if it breaks. They system is also z-wave based and if I decide I don't like the ISY anymore, I can replace the controller without replacing every sensor/device. I guess the core of my issue about the dying PLM is the lack of any resolution to the issue by the manufacturer shows an attitude regarding their product and their customers. They've had years to fix a fundamental problem with a core component to their system and they've chosen not to do it. That's like dirty bathrooms in a restaurant to me. If a restaurant has a dirty bathroom, what else are they cutting corners on?
Teken Posted January 5, 2017 Posted January 5, 2017 I have to agree with the above statement as so far regarding costs. Its obvious people in general terms are more than willing to spend more money knowing the end result is long term service life, reliability, and value add features. Never mind service after the sale . . . One only has to look at the tens of millions of Apple devices sold each year. The very steady transition to the ISY Series Controller from lesser controllers like Wink, Insteon HUB II, Vera, Home Seer, Smartthings etc. People are willing to pay for hardware / services which are robust . . . To be fair to Smartlabs this single company has stood head and shoulders against no less than 65 other companies in the home automation space and survived. As of this writing they have been the most consistent company that has released at least one new product a year. As far as I can tell lots of the feedback they have received, seen, heard, has been taken on to make the product(s) better. Having said this I am extremely surprised there hasn't been more advancement in the area of the 2413S PLM. Given the global reach and growth of HA one would have thought a universal (Global) PLM would have been released by now. The frustration I have along with the tens of thousands of ISY Series Controller users have is why UDI has not been allowed to pick up the ball and run with it?? This tight strangle hold on the Insteon product line must come from a hidden fear in someones subconscious mind. As I see no good reason for holding back others who will ultimately help the product grow, adopted, and used world wide. What probably annoys me to no end more is knowing Smartlabs has world wide HUB's with the exact PLM as the ones we are using now. Yet the average person can't use it directly to connect to the ISY Series Controller with out third party retro fit. Having said all the above I am still hopeful 2017 will see improvements and possible updates to the 2413S PLM. As I noted in a related thread which calls out two separate global PLM's which if true would answer the above questions. Hopefully the other unit is indeed from UDI and all of this back and forth has been quite comical to Michel and UDI as they slowly ramp out production for the big REVEAL . . . NUDGE, NUDGE, WINK, WINK . . . LOL . . .
kohai Posted January 5, 2017 Author Posted January 5, 2017 I think z-wave is finally hitting some milestones on functionality that should be making the Insteon company nervous. It's not quite there but it is getting there. The advantages of Insteon over z-wave are being whittled away. I do like the idea of power-line communication of Insteon but not enough to deal with dying PLMs. Someone should create power-line extender for z-wave (e.g. a repeater).
kck Posted January 12, 2017 Posted January 12, 2017 Related question: I assume that the ISY Zwave module doesn't use gen5 plus component since I believe it predates most of the gen 5 intros. Is this correct (does a controller even need to use the same part?) and is it significant and if so are there plans to upgrade it to gen5? Perhaps I just don't understand enough about Zwave to realize that these are meaningless questions but I am starting to think about automation for a vacation house we bought and I would ideally like to do it on a ISY v5, Insteon, gen5 plus Zwave basis so I am trying to understand timing of doing it.
Teken Posted January 12, 2017 Posted January 12, 2017 Related question: I assume that the ISY Zwave module doesn't use gen5 plus component since I believe it predates most of the gen 5 intros. Is this correct (does a controller even need to use the same part?) and is it significant and if so are there plans to upgrade it to gen5? Perhaps I just don't understand enough about Zwave to realize that these are meaningless questions but I am starting to think about automation for a vacation house we bought and I would ideally like to do it on a ISY v5, Insteon, gen5 plus Zwave basis so I am trying to understand timing of doing it. Hello Kevin, As far as I am aware the ISY Series Controller does not support generation 5 Z-Wave Plus. I also understand it would require the 500 series chip to be present to support the above. UDI would need to affirm what chip is inside of the controller and weather or not it can be flashed to support Z-Wave Plus. Past threads from Michel indicated the Z-Wave daughter board does not support this configuration however. All of the benefits of Generation 5 Z-Wave Plus is however a vast improvement over previous ones.
kck Posted January 13, 2017 Posted January 13, 2017 Teken, That's sort of what I figured. The part that concerns me is that reading the gen5 info I have seen, the benefits related to better communication range only appear if both side are gen5. In fact the Vesternet site says: The main consideration is the Z-Wave controller - if the controller is not Z-Wave Plus enabled than all devices added to that controller's network will default to acting as Z-Wave. This is because Z-Wave Plus is back-wards compatible with Z-Wave devices, when it is installed with Z-Wave devices it behaves just like a Z-Wave device as those existing devices have no way to communicate with it using Z-Wave Plus commands. This would be pretty damning for the ISY as a controller if true since the security and range benefits are key elements of gen5. Michel - if you read this can you comment? Kevin
Teken Posted January 13, 2017 Posted January 13, 2017 Hello Kevin, What you quoted is very much what I understand and have observed first hand. ========================= The highest calling in life is to serve ones country faithfully - Teach others what can be. Do what is right and not what is popular.
Michel Kohanim Posted January 13, 2017 Posted January 13, 2017 Teken, Thanks so very much for the details. This said, would you please let us answer questions that are directly related to our products and roadmaps? kck, Controller does not have to be Gen5. This said, we have already designed, prototyped and tested a Gen5 dongle which has the same form factor as the existing one. We are currently testing it in conjunction with 5.0.x release. Once 5.0.x is in beta (including Z-Wave plus), we will notify and send Gen5 to a select few for testing. With kind regards, Michel
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