Kidde Smoke Detector - ISY Link

[__Mike__]

Is there any way to "monitor" Kidde Interconnected smoke detectors with my ISY 994i?  I'd like to be able to send a text message from my ISY if an alarm is triggered.

 

Thanks for any ideas,

Mike

[elvisimprsntr]

Yes there is. You can buy a Kidde RemoteLync which will work with any smoke detector manufactured since the late 70's. It plugs into any outlet and it monitors for the audible sound emitted from the smoke/co detector after you train it. They have an IFTTT channel which you can couple with the Maker channel to invoke a ISY REST command. The RemoteLync app will also send push notifications.

 

https://remotelync.kidde.com/

 

https://ifttt.com/applets/399619p-turn-on-lights-for-kidde-smoke-alert

 

The other option is to buy a Kidde smoke relay and wire it up to an IOLinc. The downside is it requires smoke alarm wiring changes which is supposed to be done by a licensed electrician.

 

http://www.kidde.com/home-safety/en/us/products/fire-safety/safety-accessories/auxiliary-devices/sm120x/

Edited January 15, 2017 by elvisimprsntr

[__Mike__]

Thanks.  I'm not positive I understand the electronics involved, but I was hoping for a way to "listen" for the Kidde interconnect RF signal in my home wiring like (I believe) the Insteon Smoke Bridge is doing for the FirstAlert alarms.  I bought the Smoke Bridge naively assuming it would work for any interconnected alarms, and am now stuck looking for a cheap way out of my screw up.  If I understand this correctly, has anyone tried to hack the Insteon Smoke Bridge to make it work for the Kidde alarms?  Don't worry, I have no intention to mess with any of the functionality of the Kidde alarms - I only want to turn on my lights and send a text message from my ISY when an alarm sounds.

 

Thanks Again,

Mike

[Bumbershoot]

I took this route, and it works fine.

 

I added one of these First Alert smoke alarms to my setup (all the rest of the alarms are hardwired Kidde alarms).  I then added an Insteon Smoke Bridge to my setup.  It has always worked as intended during testing, and installation was easy.  My ISY now sends alerts, turns on all the lights, turns on my Z-Wave Aeotech Siren, etc.

 

BTW, no hacking of the alarm or Smoke Bridge was necessary.  The First Alert alarm uses a differently shaped connector than the Kidde alarms do, but it's easy to swap.  My hardwired Kidde and First Alert alarms are compatible, as I can smoke a Kidde alarm (at the other end of the house from the First Alert), and the ISY runs my programs. 

Edited January 15, 2017 by Bumbershoot

[elvisimprsntr]

The Insteon Smoke Bridge only works with a particular model of FirstAlert smokes/co. Interconnected smokes can be wired (4 wire) or wireless. My recommendation would be to buy the Kidde RemoteLync. It's plug and play, and app will send you push notifications.

Edited January 15, 2017 by elvisimprsntr

[Teken]

I took this route, and it works fine.

 

I added one of these First Alert smoke alarms to my setup (all the rest of the alarms are hardwired Kidde alarms).  I then added an Insteon Smoke Bridge to my setup.  It has always worked as intended during testing, and installation was easy.  My ISY now sends alerts, turns on all the lights, turns on my Z-Wave Aeotech Siren, etc.

 

BTW, no hacking of the alarm or Smoke Bridge was necessary.  The First Alert alarm uses a differently shaped connector than the Kidde alarms do, but it's easy to swap.  My hardwired Kidde and First Alert alarms are compatible, as I can smoke a Kidde alarm (at the other end of the house from the First Alert), and the ISY runs my programs. 

 

Your the first person I have ever read in the forums that has tried this. I think that's a great solution to the OP but can you offer to the members the specific Kidd hardwired unit you have connected?

 

Keeping in mind the OP has a *Wireless RF* unit so this method won't work for him at the moment. 

[jtara92101]

Yes there is. You can buy a Kidde RemoteLync which will work with any smoke detector manufactured since the late 70's. It plugs into any outlet and it monitors for the audible sound emitted from the smoke/co detector after you train it. They have an IFTTT channel which you can couple with the Maker channel to invoke a ISY REST command.

 

 

But your home might be a pile of cinders by the time IFTTT notifies the ISY, as IFTTT only runs triggers every 15 minutes, and so the average response time is 7 1/2 minutes.

 

Bumbershoot's solution will work if you have HARD-WIRED alarms that use a traveller wire. These use two wires to power the unit with AC (also have battery backup) and a third, "traveller" wire that is used to signal the other alarms to sound if one goes off. First Alerts that support RF signaling are available in both wired and battery-only configurations. So, Bumbershoot replaced ONE of his Kidde's with First Alert. I assume that with that setup, you will not get a correct indication of the location of an alarm. e.g. if you put the ONE First Alert in the kitchen, an alarm anywhere is going to indicate "kitchen".

 

The First Alerts that support smoke bridge do not use your "house wiring" to connect to the smoke bridge. It is RF, and it is proprietary. And I wouldn't want to "hack" it in any case, or any safety system. (on edge of seat awaiting Teken's response...)

[Teken]

But your home might be a pile of cinders by the time IFTTT notifies the ISY, as IFTTT only runs triggers every 15 minutes, and so the average response time is 7 1/2 minutes.

 

Bumbershoot's solution will work if you have HARD-WIRED alarms that use a traveller wire. These use two wires to power the unit with AC (also have battery backup) and a third, "traveller" wire that is used to signal the other alarms to sound if one goes off. First Alerts that support RF signaling are available in both wired and battery-only configurations. So, Bumbershoot replaced ONE of his Kidde's with First Alert. I assume that with that setup, you will not get a correct indication of the location of an alarm. e.g. if you put the ONE First Alert in the kitchen, an alarm anywhere is going to indicate "kitchen".

 

The First Alerts that support smoke bridge do not use your "house wiring" to connect to the smoke bridge. It is RF, and it is proprietary. And I wouldn't want to "hack" it in any case, or any safety system. (on edge of seat awaiting Teken's response...)

 

I agree with life and safety one should not be considering using cloud hosted services like IFTTT / Stringify. It would be just fine for simple alerts for low battery, malfunction, test, etc. But for active monitoring this must always go to a UL / cUL certified monitoring central station.

 

Their only job is to receive the incoming alert message signal and notify you and the fire department. 

 

In my home the primary smoke, co, heat, sensors are 2 wire modules which are connected directly to the security alarm panel. A secondary smoke / co system uses the First Alert hardwired smoke which connect via RF to the First Alert smoke / co combination detectors.

 

This was done to offer a measure of safety and fail over . . .

 

Why?

 

Because there is no method besides the remote edge case of induced EMP from lightning that can take out a wireless RF smoke detector. That can't be said to a hardwired solution because it requires extensive shielding, grounding, and isolation of the lines.

 

The only method we have found that offers a measure of fault protection is the use of opto isolators and SSR's. Even going this route is considered *Sacrificial* to the network. But that is a much better compromise than having to replace hundreds of dollars of smoke hardware.

 

NOTE: There is a huge distinction between consumer vs commercial grade sensors. One is intended to be tested, calibrated, and parts serviced. Where as the other is defined to fail based on a virtual internal clock to ensure a person isn't living a lie in thinking the hardware is fully operational.

 

In all cases it makes no difference what hardware you use if you don't bother to complete the monthly fire checks!

 

I can assure you 99% of the population don't - never mind changing out the batteries twice a year based on DST change.

[elvisimprsntr]

But your home might be a pile of cinders by the time IFTTT notifies the ISY, as IFTTT only runs triggers every 15 minutes, and so the average response time is 7 1/2 minutes.

RemoteLync IFTTT channel is real time. Not all are. Don't assume you know everything unless you have direct knowledge of the subject. RemoteLync and IFTTT is secondary convenience, not primary fire detection and notification. If you have those concerns or needs you should have a professional alarm and fire detection in your home. Personally, I do not use the ISY for any safety or security related needs. Convenience only. Edited January 16, 2017 by elvisimprsntr

[Bumbershoot]

Your the first person I have ever read in the forums that has tried this. I think that's a great solution to the OP but can you offer to the members the specific Kidd hardwired unit you have connected?

 

Keeping in mind the OP has a *Wireless RF* unit so this method won't work for him at the moment. 

Here's the model: Firex I4618 by Kidde.  I believe I was typing my response to the OP when when he responded, so I missed the RF comment.

[elvisimprsntr]

I can assure you 99% of the population don't - never mind changing out the batteries twice a year based on DST change.

And 99.99% don't replace residential smokes every 10 years as required by NFPA code. Edited January 15, 2017 by elvisimprsntr

[Bumbershoot]

But your home might be a pile of cinders by the time IFTTT notifies the ISY, as IFTTT only runs triggers every 15 minutes, and so the average response time is 7 1/2 minutes.

 

Bumbershoot's solution will work if you have HARD-WIRED alarms that use a traveller wire. These use two wires to power the unit with AC (also have battery backup) and a third, "traveller" wire that is used to signal the other alarms to sound if one goes off. First Alerts that support RF signaling are available in both wired and battery-only configurations. So, Bumbershoot replaced ONE of his Kidde's with First Alert. I assume that with that setup, you will not get a correct indication of the location of an alarm. e.g. if you put the ONE First Alert in the kitchen, an alarm anywhere is going to indicate "kitchen".

 

The First Alerts that support smoke bridge do not use your "house wiring" to connect to the smoke bridge. It is RF, and it is proprietary. And I wouldn't want to "hack" it in any case, or any safety system. (on edge of seat awaiting Teken's response...)

 

You're correct that I don't get a location indication, but really I don't care which zone it is, I just want to get the lights turned on and make a huge racket!  I have a hearing impaired person living here who often doesn't hear smoke alarms when asleep at night.

[jtara92101]

Yes there is. You can buy a Kidde RemoteLync which will work with any smoke detector manufactured since the late 70's. It plugs into any outlet and it monitors for the audible sound emitted from the smoke/co detector after you train it. They have an IFTTT channel which you can couple with the Maker channel to invoke a ISY REST command. The RemoteLync app will also send push notifications.

 

https://remotelync.kidde.com/

 

https://ifttt.com/applets/399619p-turn-on-lights-for-kidde-smoke-alert

 

The other option is to buy a Kidde smoke relay and wire it up to an IOLinc. The downside is it requires smoke alarm wiring changes which is supposed to be done by a licensed electrician.

 

http://www.kidde.com/home-safety/en/us/products/fire-safety/safety-accessories/auxiliary-devices/sm120x/

 

 

RemoteLync IFTTT channel is real time. Not all are. Don't assume you know everything unless you have direct knowledge of the subject. RemoteLync and IFTTT is secondary convenience, not primary fire detection and notification. If you have those concerns or needs you should have a professional alarm and fire detection in you home. Personally, I do not use the ISY for any safety or security related needs. Convenience only.

 

From direct observation, it is my understanding that the IFTTT Maker Channel is NOT real-time. Am I wrong about that? Has it changed?

 

If Maker Channel is not real time, it would matter not if RemoteLync IFTTT channel is real-time or not.

 

Maker Channel delay is ONE of the reasons I abandoned using Nest's excellent home/away detection to set a variable on my ISY. (The other reason is that Nest doesn't do home/away detection if the thermostat is set OFF.)

 

Maybe it is just because Maker Channel recipe for Nest has to poll Nest service, whereas RemoteLync notifies IFTTT directly?

Edited January 15, 2017 by jtara92101

[elvisimprsntr]

From direct observation, it is my understanding that the IFTTT Maker Channel is NOT real-time. Am I wrong about that? Has it changed?

First let's define real time. Nothing over the Internet is hard real time or guaranteed. It depends on your application. Financial trading markets define realtime in picoseconds. Thus brokerage house servers are co-located next to exchange servers and pay millions per month to shorten the copper/fiber induced latency.

 

I define real time for home automation in terms of a perceptible delay which would cause the user to press a button a second time if a visual/audible response is not observed. I am sure their are a number of human factors studies which attempt to quantify this (@teken can probably cite a few), but my personal experience is less than a second or two.

 

It's not the Maker channel that introduces the huge lag or delay, it's what ever channel you use on the trigger side. It depends on how each channel implements their services. Polling vs continuous connection. The Kidde RemoteLync channel is the latter. It does take a fixed amount of time for the RemoteLync device to sample the audible tone emitted by a smoke detector and filter out false positives. For example a parakeet chirping or a low bat chirp, but once it does, I receive an app push notification and my IFTTT Maker channel ISY REST API recipe runs almost simultaneously to turn on all my house lights for emergency egress.

Edited January 15, 2017 by elvisimprsntr

[Teken]

And 99.99% don't replace residential smokes every 10 years as required by NFPA code.

Agreed, and to expand on that thought process you and I participated in a similar thread regarding smoke detectors in general. As noted by you the benefit of using the Kidd Remote Linc is that it allows a person to buy relatively cheap sensors. The First Alert battery operated combination sensors are extremely expansive and depending upon when you purchased the unit.

 

Some of them only provide 5-7 years of service life . . .

 

The hardwired smoke only sensor is rated to last 10 years . . .

 

In all cases regardless of the 5, 7, 10 year service life the product literally stops operating. You will be presented with a 3-5 pulse beep which cycles every 60 seconds? If coupled with the Insteon Smoke Bridge you will receive this malfunction message as seen here.

 

 

This is why I decided to purchase and install commercial grade smoke / co detectors that could be tested, calibrated, and replace the sensing chambers if and when required. Having said this I saw great value in deploying battery operated units through out the home because it allowed flexible mounting where I needed them. Along with the extra assurance no electrical event could impact them should such a condition exist on the line.

 

Lastly, like others it enabled me to connect the Insteon network to activate all the interior / exterior lighting for proper evacuation.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Teken

[elvisimprsntr]

Agreed, and to expand on that thought process you and I participated in a similar thread regarding smoke detectors in general. As noted by you the benefit of using the Kidd Remote Linc is that it allows a person to buy relatively cheap sensors. The First Alert battery operated combination sensors are extremely expansive and depending upon when you purchased the unit.

 

Some of them only provide 5-7 years of service life . . .

 

The hardwired smoke only sensor is rated to last 10 years . . .

I feel sorry for all the saps (marks) who replaced all their tried and true $9 smoke/cos with $99-$129 Nest Protects. They will realize their error when it comes time to replace them after 10 years or when a homebuyer's inspector flags all the NPs as out of service life. Edited January 16, 2017 by elvisimprsntr

[Teken]

I feel sorry for all the saps (marks) who replaced all their tried and true $9 smoke/cos with $99-$129 Nest Protects. They will realize their error when it comes time to replace them after 10 years or when a homebuyer's inspector flags all the NPs as out of service life.

Sadly, I am indeed one of those saps who invested in those units. Even though there wasn't a direct cost to me for the first alert combo units I can't say moving forward this is something I would consider investing into again.

[Teken]

Another member asked me if I could offer a sample of the first alert combination units indicating 5 vs 7 year warranty / operations. This unit presented here are the ones currently deployed in the home these have a 5 year operational service life.

 

 

The newer units seen below offer 7 years of operational service life.

 

 

Rear of package noting the 7 years.

 

 

With nine of these units in the home the long term costs is really going to add up over time. Thank God I have more than 12 free spares!.

=========================

 

The highest calling in life is to serve ones country faithfully - Teach others what can be. Do what is right and not what is popular.

Edited January 16, 2017 by Teken

[larryllix]

I was involved in calibrating gas detectors for many years, developing my own procedures and records. They were primarily for detection of hydrogen sulfide (sewer) gas in confined spaces.

 

The actual detector sensor elements were actually just fuel cells combining oxygen with it's internal chemicals, and producing a relative voltage. After a year of oxygen exposure installed in the instruments they would require calibration again, and then about every year after that as the cell depreciated.

 

Basically all these did were to detect oxygen levels, If they were outside of human exposure limits, ring some alarms and indicate oxygen levels on the display. Maybe flash an LED to indicate toxic gas(ses).

 

The fuel cells slowly wore out on average IIRC about 3-5 years after removing them from the oxygen proof packaging they were shipped in.

 

It wouldn't be worth it to replace thee cells in residential gas detectors so they get tossed. In these human safety units worth about $3K each it was a different story. The fuel cells were about $80 each IIRC.

 

In later years with more serious safety concern from the Gov. safety boards people, etc. calibrated gas mixtures were used to calibrate and test these sensor more accurately at detecting the gassses the concern was for in the first place. Easliy fooled instruments, but toxic gasses or not, lack of oxygen takes the same initial evac procedures.

[Teken]

My reply was simply to offer some insight about the First Alert One Link combination sensors. I don't believe anyone would consider 5-7 years as being a very reasonable service life. At ten years of service (1 decade) is more than reasonable for anyone to be expected to replace and invest into new technology for a safety system.

 

I see the whole 5-7 operational service as simply a money grab by the vendors . . .

 

In a standard home there isn't anything I consider excessive that could result in such a short operational service life. Besides those who are smokers, heavy oily cookers, or those area where its extremely dusty?

 

The last several years has changed my mindset about different areas - one of which is to remove items that have short service life as listed up above. The other part is reducing my reliance on complex electronics in my home which can be impacted by what I consider *A Typical* voltage swings in the electrical system.

Edited January 16, 2017 by Teken

[jeshab]

On 1/15/2017 at 11:01 AM, Bumbershoot said:

I took this route, and it works fine.

 

I added one of these First Alert smoke alarms to my setup (all the rest of the alarms are hardwired Kidde alarms).  I then added an Insteon Smoke Bridge to my setup.  It has always worked as intended during testing, and installation was easy.  My ISY now sends alerts, turns on all the lights, turns on my Z-Wave Aeotech Siren, etc.

 

BTW, no hacking of the alarm or Smoke Bridge was necessary.  The First Alert alarm uses a differently shaped connector than the Kidde alarms do, but it's easy to swap.  My hardwired Kidde and First Alert alarms are compatible, as I can smoke a Kidde alarm (at the other end of the house from the First Alert), and the ISY runs my programs. 

I am actually planning to implement the solution above. My only question is if the First Alert smoke detector can determine the difference alarms (CO, smoke, test, low battery) coming from the Kidde interconnected network, in line to the different channels available on the Insteon smoke bridge. My understanding is that the Kiddle devices send different signal types based on the triggered alarm.

[Bumbershoot]

4 hours ago, jeshab said:

I am actually planning to implement the solution above. My only question is if the First Alert smoke detector can determine the difference alarms (CO, smoke, test, low battery) coming from the Kidde interconnected network, in line to the different channels available on the Insteon smoke bridge. My understanding is that the Kiddle devices send different signal types based on the triggered alarm.

I'm sorry, but I can't help you with that question.  My Kidde alarms are smoke only, and my CO alarms are separate.  That's something I'll fix eventually, likely by integrate both alarms into my Elk system, but for now, this works well for the smoke alarms.

[jeshab]

1 hour ago, Bumbershoot said:

I'm sorry, but I can't help you with that question.  My Kidde alarms are smoke only, and my CO alarms are separate.  That's something I'll fix eventually, likely by integrate both alarms into my Elk system, but for now, this works well for the smoke alarms.

What about the other alarm types? I will assume that low battery and test alarms from the Kidde detectors aren't propagated when comparing to how an integrated First Alert OneLink interconnected network works.

[Bumbershoot]

2 minutes ago, jeshab said:

What about the other alarm types? I will assume that low battery and test alarms from the Kidde detectors aren't propagated when comparing to how an integrated First Alert OneLink interconnected network works.

No, low battery alarms are not.  A press of the "Test" button on any of the alarms propagates through to the ISY, as does an actual alarm, but nothing else.

[jeshab]

3 minutes ago, Bumbershoot said:

No, low battery alarms are not.  A press of the "Test" button on any of the alarms propagates through to the ISY, as does an actual alarm, but nothing else.

Is the test alarm coming as a test notification from the smoke bridge? If this is the case, that should be a good sign that a CO alarm would be notified as so.