What did you do today?

[larryllix]

I almost forgot about this. I got my shelf finished, stained, and urethaned and mounted on the wall. This allowed me to lower my TV and move the TV back a few inches where I saved some wiring connection room behind the cabinet. See construction posts about 6 back.

This made the TV look a little more "built-in" and a little less abnoxious to the room.

It was a little scary loading the shelf up with about 100 pounds of equipment sticking out over 20" from the wall, that high, over the television..

Side effect: Got a place for my Dolby 5.1 "hieght" speakers.  I haven't noticed any increased effects from that addition yet. Some modern TV movies contain great "Atmos" sound now and the effects can be a little scary causing us to pause movies and search the house for fallen objects or intruders.

 

Edited June 19, 2018 by larryllix

[Scottmichaelj]

[/url] I almost forgot about this. I got my shelf finished, stained, and urethaned and mounted on the wall. This allowed me to lower my TV and move the TV back a few inches where I saved some wiring connection room behind the cabinet. See construction posts about 6 back. This made the TV look a little more "built-in" and a little less abnoxious to the room.

It was a little scary loading the shelf up with about 100 pounds of equipment sticking out over 20" from the wall, that high, over the television..

Side effect: Got a place for my Dolby 5.1 "hieght" speakers.  I haven't noticed any increased effects from that addition yet. Some modern TV movies contain great "Atmos" sound now and the effects can be a little scary causing us to pause movies and search the house for fallen objects or intruders.

 

 

ATMOS requires more speakers than 5.1 - so if your upmixing or doing ATMOS with only 5.1 your actually loosing sound for the rears and side. IMHO it would sound better just at 5.1.

 

Otherwise looks good!

[larryllix]

21 minutes ago, Scottmichaelj said:

 

ATMOS requires more speakers than 5.1 - so if your upmixing or doing ATMOS with only 5.1 your actually loosing sound for the rears and side. IMHO it would sound better just at 5.1.

 

Otherwise looks good!

Strange. I always thought and manual indicates same (I think) that Atmos is only the encoding method and my amp uses whatever speakers are spec'd in the setup. Of course the more the better for sound positioning control.

I thought adding the height speakers would be and implementation of 7.1.2 but when I went to add them into the decoding setup, it didn't exist. Manual indicated config layout but it was still 5.1.2 with height speakers.

Darn! I still have four channels unused.

Strange thing it's all setup for two seating positions but I sit off the the side of the watching area online and wife watches show with bullets whizzing past my face. I have been known to duck at times. Some of the sat TV sounds are incredible now. Only 1080i but sound is something else!
This is where the P2P downloads (and many popular  streaming services)  really suck. Most are 2ch flat or have Dolby forgotten about. Most  would never know.

 

ADDENDUM: I just did some lookup on Dolby Atmos and it can be done with minimal surround speakers. Atmos appears to be more about the height with sounds reflecting off the ceiling. I have always had my rear speakers hanging from a 9' ceiling pointing down on a 45 degree shot so maybe that is why I get the overhead sounds so effectively with the Atmos decoding. Just now I tuned those little height speakers to a tilt up to the ceiling more to cater to that better. We'll see how that works out.

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/speaker-setup/index.html

 

Edited June 19, 2018 by larryllix

[DrLumen]

Shelf looks nice.

As to speaker placement and aiming, it is more dependent on speaker design than any encoding. For example, designated bookshelf speakers are intended to be used in an environment with a high Reflection factor. Regardless, high frequencies are easily lost. Speaker tweeters should be directed at the listeners without any type of reflection. Reflections could also cause some delays, dead spots and potential phasing effects. If that is what you want and you like that effect then so be it.

Unless Atmos (I'm not familiar with all the specs there) is cranking the highs, the HF reflections should be minimized. If they are cranking the high frequencies then they are coloring the sound beyond what is typical. That will affect music listening.

Personal preference and YMMV...

[larryllix]

6 hours ago, DrLumen said:

Shelf looks nice.

As to speaker placement and aiming, it is more dependent on speaker design than any encoding. For example, designated bookshelf speakers are intended to be used in an environment with a high Reflection factor. Regardless, high frequencies are easily lost. Speaker tweeters should be directed at the listeners without any type of reflection. Reflections could also cause some delays, dead spots and potential phasing effects. If that is what you want and you like that effect then so be it.

Unless Atmos (I'm not familiar with all the specs there) is cranking the highs, the HF reflections should be minimized. If they are cranking the high frequencies then they are coloring the sound beyond what is typical. That will affect music listening.

Personal preference and YMMV...

The Atmos decoding in the amp is made to accomodate those factors by tailoring each speaker's tonal response and compensating for the delay it measures during the testing setup process. It also calculates and sets the proper crossover frequencies for each speaker so that only the sub-woofer and full range speakers get the lower freqs.

Each amp is supplied with a calibrated response microphone. The amp goes through a long series of pink noise shots of varying amplitudes and frequency ranges. In the end it charts every speaker distance to the user's ear / mic, the freq. range, and any speker that is connected out of phase. I have been very impressed how this thing can place sounds behind us, above us, beside us, or through us. That was before I added the new height front speakers I had laying around.  I have had Dolby decoding since it was implemented by analogue phase shifting RLC networks. I went thrugh a few digital dolby decoding amps also, but nothing ever like Dolby Atmos before.

Of course, some of the new audio technicians love to make TV shows/movies with overdone effects causing bullets to ricochet through the room several times each shot, or smash something in our front foyer, 30 feet behind the  TV surround sound field area. We have spent many a time looking for broken things in the rest of the house, that repeated when rewound and played again. I had considered disconnecting the rear speakers a few times, over the years, due to over realism wasting our time looking for home accidents.

Yes the musiv suffers badly but the newer amp now realises this and compensates for that also. Previous receivers just blasted through all 8 speakers but now they just shut all the special speakers off, realising that mixed reflected and phase delayed sound does not sound good for music. Things are much better than the previous 3-4 amplifiers with Dolby sound.

Edited June 19, 2018 by larryllix

[DrLumen]

4 hours ago, larryllix said:

The Atmos decoding in the amp is made to accomodate those factors by tailoring each speaker's tonal response and compensating for the delay it measures during the testing setup process. It also calculates and sets the proper crossover frequencies for each speaker so that only the sub-woofer and full range speakers get the lower freqs.

Each amp is supplied with a calibrated response microphone. The amp goes through a long series of pink noise shots of varying amplitudes and frequency ranges. In the end it charts every speaker distance to the user's ear / mic, the freq. range, and any speker that is connected out of phase. I have been very impressed how this thing can place sounds behind us, above us, beside us, or through us. That was before I added the new height front speakers I had laying around.  I have had Dolby decoding since it was implemented by analogue phase shifting RLC networks. I went thrugh a few digital dolby decoding amps also, but nothing ever like Dolby Atmos before.

Of course, some of the new audio technicians love to make TV shows/movies with overdone effects causing bullets to ricochet through the room several times each shot, or smash something in our front foyer, 30 feet behind the  TV surround sound field area. We have spent many a time looking for broken things in the rest of the house, that repeated when rewound and played again. I had considered disconnecting the rear speakers a few times, over the years, due to over realism wasting our time looking for home accidents.

Yes the musiv suffers badly but the newer amp now realises this and compensates for that also. Previous receivers just blasted through all 8 speakers but now they just shut all the special speakers off, realising that mixed reflected and phase delayed sound does not sound good for music. Things are much better than the previous 3-4 amplifiers with Dolby sound.

If the RTA actually works then that should compensate for different issues. I have had different 5.1 - 7.2 systems in the past and yes the realism at times can be surprising.

A few years ago we got on a minimalist, KISS type bent and got rid of all that and a lot of other stuff.  We have the TV and a yamaha soundbar and sub for the living room and that's it. I have a standing honeydo to hang them from the ceiling and I'll do that eventually. I thought I would miss the surround but it turned out ok. There are still times when it sounds like things are happening in other parts of the house. IMO, music through it sucks but the war dept doesn't care about that as much as I do. Luckily, when I want to listen to music outside of the headphones I have my near field studio monitors in the office/studio. She won't be prying those out of my hands anytime soon!

Edited June 19, 2018 by DrLumen

[Scottmichaelj]

Check out the Dolby website

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/brands/dolby-atmos.html

Then go to “Home” for full speaker setup.

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/home/dolby-atmos.html

You can half *** anything...lol

On most AVRs you set the speaker setup either 5.1, 7.1 or full ATMOS 7.1.2

Check this out for speaker setup

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/dolby-atmos-speaker-setup/index.html

Then on newer AVRs if your watching an ATMOS movie with a 5.1 setup it will down-mix. Sometimes though as I said going to the DTS soundtrack sounds better. Each setup/room varies though.

As mentioned ATMOS does use “reflections” of sound - which so do soundbars which try to fake Dolby Digital 5.1. Sometimes it’s fine and other times it sounds terrible. All depends on the room size, dimensions and materials.

For my personal home theater I have Kinetics sound baffles on my walls and ceiling, so no sound is getting reflected, so ATMOS won’t work for me. My room dimensions and decor would not allow ATMOS. Such is life. I am happy with my 7.2 setup and ATMOS is only on newer movies. A properly setup 5.1/7.1 still could give a half assed room a run for the money.

I personally have heard a “true” ATMOS in a theater here in the Seattle area and the effects are truly amazing. It makes home theaters cool again bringing sounds within the “3D Space” of the room. Going from top right to bottom left smoothly and helicopter sounds going in a smooth 360 pattern using the Dolby ATMOS Demo disc. John Wick ending fight is crazy good as well as Mad Max Road Fury. Just add a JVC PJ and a Screen Innovations Black Diamond screen! I have both and install these a lot and I and my clients LOVE them!

[larryllix]

Dolby 7.1 doesn't do anything for Atmos sound, according to Dolby's definitions.  Dolby 7.1 is about more horizontal speaker/sound image  placements, over Dolby 5.1 placements. Check the link I supplied for examples of this.

 The vertical dimension of sound is what Atmos is about and Dolby 5.1 and  7.1 accomplish that  that  exactly the same.

Dolby is trying to show how reflected sound can accomplish the Atmos (height) effect. I don't reflect any sound off the ceiling. I use high speaker placements to create it directly using a slightly modified Dolby 5.1.4 setup.

[DrLumen]

11 hours ago, Scottmichaelj said:

...

Then on newer AVRs if your watching an ATMOS movie with a 5.1 setup it will down-mix. Sometimes though as I said going to the DTS soundtrack sounds better. Each setup/room varies though.

As mentioned ATMOS does use “reflections” of sound - which so do soundbars which try to fake Dolby Digital 5.1. Sometimes it’s fine and other times it sounds terrible. All depends on the room size, dimensions and materials.

For my personal home theater I have Kinetics sound baffles on my walls and ceiling, so no sound is getting reflected, so ATMOS won’t work for me. My room dimensions and decor would not allow ATMOS. Such is life. I am happy with my 7.2 setup and ATMOS is only on newer movies. A properly setup 5.1/7.1 still could give a half assed room a run for the money.

I personally have heard a “true” ATMOS in a theater here in the Seattle area and the effects are truly amazing. It makes home theaters cool again bringing sounds within the “3D Space” of the room. Going from top right to bottom left smoothly and helicopter sounds going in a smooth 360 pattern using the Dolby ATMOS Demo disc. John Wick ending fight is crazy good as well as Mad Max Road Fury. Just add a JVC PJ and a Screen Innovations Black Diamond screen! I have both and install these a lot and I and my clients LOVE them!

ATMOSphere I guess huh?. More for ambience than source.

I had a 5.1 JVC amp back when... Music also sounded good through it too. I'm not sure what they did but there was some separation of instruments (or likely harmonics) from front to back that gave a really cool surround effect with standard stereo CD's. It was lost in a burglary though. The lowlife bastiges!

[marcin]

Thanks for starting this topic. Since my Wife and I expecting our firs baby in November we decided to change floors in the baby's room. we got rid off carpet and put nice hickory floor, with new subfloor and soundproofing rubber. I started project on Saturday and happily finished this morning.

[Mustang65]

Really a VERY NICE job!!!! But that leaves me with on "Off the WALL" question... or should I say "On the WALL" question, is that outlet plate on an angle or do I need to see the eye doctor?

Again VERY NICE JOB!!

[Scottmichaelj]

Dolby 7.1 doesn't do anything for Atmos sound, according to Dolby's definitions.  Dolby 7.1 is about more horizontal speaker/sound image  placements, over Dolby 5.1 placements. Check the link I supplied for examples of this.
 The vertical dimension of sound is what Atmos is about and Dolby 5.1 and  7.1 accomplish that  that  exactly the same.
Dolby is trying to show how reflected sound can accomplish the Atmos (height) effect. I don't reflect any sound off the ceiling. I use high speaker placements to create it directly using a slightly modified Dolby 5.1.4 setup.

Only half right. Think of it this way - with any of these Digital Encodings (DTS, DD, ATMOS) whatever, each speaker has its own “soundtrack”. That’s why I said going back to a 5.1 or 7.1 DD or DTS may actually sound better.

BTW what AVR do you own? Make and model? Only newer AVRs have true ATMOS and only newer titles are encoded via Blu-ray. Are you sure your hearing ATMOS?

[Goose66]

2 hours ago, marcin said:

Thanks for starting this topic. Since my Wife and I expecting our firs baby in November we decided to change floors in the baby's room. we got rid off carpet and put nice hickory floor, with new subfloor and soundproofing rubber. I started project on Saturday and happily finished this morning.

I love the picture with the micrometer in the foreground.  I am certain that was a handy tool in your floor replacement project! 

[Goose66]

1 hour ago, Scottmichaelj said:

 

Only half right. Think of it this way - with any of these Digital Encodings (DTS, DD, ATMOS) whatever, each speaker has its own “soundtrack”. That’s why I said going back to a 5.1 or 7.1 DD or DTS may actually sound better.

BTW what AVR do you own? Make and model? Only newer AVRs have true ATMOS and only newer titles are encoded via Blu-ray. Are you sure your hearing ATMOS?

 

Actually, Atmos is different from Dolby Digital and DTS in that it doesn't have a inidividual track per speaker. I.e, in Dolby 7.1, you had 8 tracks of audio, and the processor could mix certain tracks and/or adjusting the timings to match your speaker placement. In Atmos, the movie maker can assign a source location for different sounds, and the Atmos processor decides which speakers to use to create the sound based on your speaker placement and type.

[Scottmichaelj]

31 minutes ago, Goose66 said:

Actually, Atmos is different from Dolby Digital and DTS in that it doesn't have a inidividual track per speaker. I.e, in Dolby 7.1, you had 8 tracks of audio, and the processor could mix certain tracks and/or adjusting the timings to match your speaker placement. In Atmos, the movie maker can assign a source location for different sounds, and the Atmos processor decides which speakers to use to create the sound based on your speaker placement and type.

Right, your explanation is better than mine. I was trying to keep it simple.

EDIT: I have had awesome experience with Klipsh ATMOS speakers.

https://www.klipsch.com/dolby-atmos-speakers

Also there is no AVR right now available that allows full 7.1.2 ATMOS speaker setup without a second amp.

Edited June 20, 2018 by Scottmichaelj

[Goose66]

56 minutes ago, Scottmichaelj said:

Right, your explanation is better than mine. I was trying to keep it simple.

EDIT: I have had awesome experience with Klipsh ATMOS speakers.

https://www.klipsch.com/dolby-atmos-speakers

Also there is no AVR right now available that allows full 7.1.2 ATMOS speaker setup without a second amp.

At least high-end 9 and 11 channel Denon AVRs, like the AVR-X4400H and AVR-X6400H,  support Atmos 7.1.2 and 7.1.4 respectively. 

My 7 channel Denon AVR supports Atmos 5.1.2, and I am wondering if I would be better off with that (requiring new ceiling speakers and wiring) or just sticking with my current 7.1 setup and letting Atmos remix everything.

[larryllix]

1 hour ago, Scottmichaelj said:

Right, your explanation is better than mine. I was trying to keep it simple.

EDIT: I have had awesome experience with Klipsh ATMOS speakers.

https://www.klipsch.com/dolby-atmos-speakers

Also there is no AVR right now available that allows full 7.1.2 ATMOS speaker setup without a second amp.

http://filedepot.onkyousa.com/Files/sell_sheets/TX-NR656-Product-Sheet-US_4.5.17.pdf

"Supports Dolby Atmos^® up to 5.1.2 Channels".
The Atmos "Height" channels required, do not count for the Dolby spec leaving it rated at 5.1.2 even though using seven  channels  of the nine  available. That is assuming the sub-woofer output channels are just a slave of other outputs and do not count as "channels".

 

I remember laughing along  with sound guys,  when speakers were rated "Digital Ready". The 1s and 0s bit noise was incredible.

 

Edited June 20, 2018 by larryllix

[Scottmichaelj]

http://filedepot.onkyousa.com/Files/sell_sheets/TX-NR656-Product-Sheet-US_4.5.17.pdf
"Supports Dolby Atmos up to 5.1.2 Channels".
The Atmos "Height" channels required, do not count for the Dolby spec leaving it rated at 5.1.2 even though using seven  channels  of the nine  available. That is assuming the sub-woofer output channels are just a slave of other outputs and do not count as "channels".
 
I remember laughing along  with sound guys,  when speakers were rated "Digital Ready". The 1s and 0s bit noise was incredible.
 

I am not talking about “decoding” ATMOS, although *I think* only 2016 and newer AVRs started allowing decoding of ATMOS. As far as true spec I don’t recall any AVRs that have full 11 channel AMPs to power each speaker. You need a second amp for the additional two channels. For example the Yamaha 3080 is an amazing AVR and can decode all 11 ATMOS channels HOWEVER it can not power all the speakers. Sorry if I wasn’t clear.

All anyone is doing is playing ATMOS via 5.1 or 7.1 is upmixing but this not spec. Your system is “faking” it. That’s why I stand behind my comments that DTS MA or DD/TrueHD will most likely sound better. I have ATMOS demo disc from Dolby labs and IMHO even my home theater I don’t up mix because I think it sounds better in DTS MA/DD TrueHD.

At the end of the day you can do what you want and people debate this stuff all day long on the AVS forum till death. If you want to learn more or get crazy check it out there.

[Scottmichaelj]

At least high-end 9 and 11 channel Denon AVRs, like the AVR-X4400H and AVR-X6400H,  support Atmos 7.1.2 and 7.1.4 respectively. 

My 7 channel Denon AVR supports Atmos 5.1.2, and I am wondering if I would be better off with that (requiring new ceiling speakers and wiring) or just sticking with my current 7.1 setup and letting Atmos remix everything.

 

If you can wire it, then it will be awesome. Upmixing is like saying a sound bar is true 5.1. I think you would be shocked to hear the true difference. Make sure your receiver has enough channels otherwise you might have to add another small amp. They are cheap for decent stuff now but it is an investment.

[Goose66]

1 hour ago, Scottmichaelj said:

 

If you can wire it, then it will be awesome. Upmixing is like saying a sound bar is true 5.1. I think you would be shocked to hear the true difference. Make sure your receiver has enough channels otherwise you might have to add another small amp. They are cheap for decent stuff now but it is an investment.

The Denon AVRs listed have 9 and 11 discrete amps so they can drive Atmos 7.1.2 and 7.1.4 directly.  With Atmos, none of it is "upmixing" - it's taking the sound objects and outputting them from the speakers in the setup that give them the most accurate placement. That's the difference between Atmos and Dolby Digital. You have to stop thinking of channels of recorded audio and start thinking of sound objects.

Of course, you have to have at least some overhead speakers to get any realistic Atmos playback. My Denon X1200W just died and I just bought a cheap Denon 7 channel with Atmos to replace it like a month ago. I wish I had researched this more before because I would definitely sprung for at least a 9 channel amp and added two overhead speakers.

[larryllix]

36 minutes ago, Goose66 said:

The Denon AVRs listed have 9 and 11 discrete amps so they can drive Atmos 7.1.2 and 7.1.4 directly.  With Atmos, none of it is "upmixing" - it's taking the sound objects and outputting them from the speakers in the setup that give them the most accurate placement. That's the difference between Atmos and Dolby Digital. You have to stop thinking of channels of recorded audio and start thinking of sound objects.

Of course, you have to have at least some overhead speakers to get any realistic Atmos playback. My Denon X1200W just died and I just bought a cheap Denon 7 channel with Atmos to replace it like a month ago. I wish I had researched this more before because I would definitely sprung for at least a 9 channel amp and added two overhead speakers.

Does Dolby Amos have discrete sound placement spots or is it analogue placement like other encoding/decoding methods? I keep reading this about Atmos but I have a hard time thinking they would create a finite number of sound placement spots to make decoding easier and more accurate.  Now sound motion would have "resolution" too.

[Scottmichaelj]

The Denon AVRs listed have 9 and 11 discrete amps so they can drive Atmos 7.1.2 and 7.1.4 directly.  With Atmos, none of it is "upmixing" - it's taking the sound objects and outputting them from the speakers in the setup that give them the most accurate placement. That's the difference between Atmos and Dolby Digital. You have to stop thinking of channels of recorded audio and start thinking of sound objects.

 I am not disagreeing with you regarding the channels. “Neither Atmos nor DTS:X are channel based. The information a receiver requires to create the additional channels is supplied via the metadata associated with Atmos and DTS:X soundtracks. Atmos encoded discs don't come with both an Atmos and a TrueHD soundtrack, they come with just one 7.1 TrueHD soundtrack and the Atmos metadata. What diffentiates an Atmos enabled AV receiver from a non Atmos enabled receiver is that receiver's ability to read and interpret the associated Atmos metadata streamed along with the 7.1 TrueHD audio. There are no additional discrete channels included that correspond to the additional Atmos speakers and the channels are created by the receiver according to the information within the Atmos metadata.”  

BUT your still “up-mixing” by “faking” the additional other ATMOS channels if you only have 5.1 setup.

 

From Klipsh

https://www.klipsch.com/blog/upmixing-with-dolby-atmos  

 

From the Yamaha RX-A3070 website: 

11.2-channel processing (up to 7.2.4-ch expandability with external 2-ch amplifier) - which means it can decode ATMOS to full spec BUT it needs two more AMPS/Full channels to work. Therefore while it maybe can “fake” ATMOS by, yes up mixing, but it needs 7.2.4 aka 11 powered channels with two subs, amplified & powered to properly be ATMOS. YAPO does do a good job calibrating the speakers.

 

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio_visual/av_receivers_amps/rx-a3070_u/index.html

 

Edit: So I do see some of the newest Denon X amps have 13 powered amp channels with up to 150W @8ohms. I think these just became available in the newest 2018 models.

 

https://usa.denon.com/us/product/hometheater/receivers/avrx8500h

 

I haven’t used those is a long time so I need to look at them. Then again TBH clients are not requesting ATMOS installs yet or UHD Blu-ray. Everyone is streaming now. I have noticed Amazon Prime original shows like Bosch are in UHD and Dolby Digital 5.1.

 

Edit 2: Looks like I need to refresh myself with the new 2018 models. Marantz also has a 11 channel SR8012 AVR

 

http://m.us.marantz.com/us/mobile/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=AVReceivers&SubCatId=&ProductId=SR8012

 

[Goose66]

I agree that this all new. That's why I am kicking myself for not looking into it more before replacing the AVR in my theater. Oh well, I am only in for $400 and am have been waiting to do a 4K setup and projector in the theater anyway. If I could just win that lottery!

[Scottmichaelj]

If I could just win that lottery!

That makes two of us!

[Scottmichaelj]

Sold my home.

https://www.windermere.com/listing/WA/Redmond/10609-Elliston-Wy-NE-98053/93309332

https://player.vimeo.com/video/327407073