asbril Posted March 18, 2017 Posted March 18, 2017 Can anyone put me in the right connection on how to wire a 4 way ? I assume that I need 1 GE Z-Wave 12722 and 2 GE Add-On 12723 switches ?
oberkc Posted March 18, 2017 Posted March 18, 2017 Have you tried downloading the instructions that come with those devices? Most have wiring diagrams.
stusviews Posted March 18, 2017 Posted March 18, 2017 Are you replacing an existing multi-way configuration?
asbril Posted March 18, 2017 Author Posted March 18, 2017 Are you replacing an existing multi-way configuration? Yes, I am replacing a standard multi-way configuration. On switch A (GE 12722) I have LINE and 2 TRAVELLERS On switch B ( GE 12723 in the middle of 3 switches) I have 2 TRAVELLERS connecting to switch A and 2 TRAVELLERS connecting to switch C On switch C ( GE 12723 ) I have LOAD and 2 TRAVELLERS NEUTRAL is available for all 3 switches. The issue seems to be how to connect the two pairs of TRAVELLERS on switch B
asbril Posted March 18, 2017 Author Posted March 18, 2017 Have you tried downloading the instructions that come with those devices? Most have wiring diagrams. The instructions are only for 3 way, and I have had no issues with installing 3 way solutions. My problem is with a 4 way, which I assumed to be same as 3 way, but no luck so far.
stusviews Posted March 18, 2017 Posted March 18, 2017 Connect the primary switch to line, neutral and load. Connect a traveler from the primary switch to each secondary switch. Also, connect a neutral to each secondary switch.
asbril Posted March 18, 2017 Author Posted March 18, 2017 Connect the primary switch to line, neutral and load. Connect a traveler from the primary switch to each secondary switch. Also, connect a neutral to each secondary switch. Thanks. I understand about the traveller connection, but I believe (need to check) that I can get line and load on same switch, as I believe that line is on A and load on C. However if I can get line on C as well, then I make C the primary switch. I will post follow-up in a few days.
oberkc Posted March 18, 2017 Posted March 18, 2017 Does your cable between boxes A, B, and C include two condutors (not counting ground)? Three? More? As I look at the instructions, it appears to require three conductors, plus ground. How confident are you that these switches can be used in four-way configuration?
stusviews Posted March 19, 2017 Posted March 19, 2017 I'm quite confident that the wiring I suggested will work. If there's a neutral in each box including the 4-way, then there should be adequate wiring in place.
oberkc Posted March 19, 2017 Posted March 19, 2017 If there's a neutral in each box including the 4-way Yes, but I did not see this in the diagram from asbril. It seems like many of the 4-way switches I have seen do not have a neutral conductor. Hopefully, his does.
TrojanHorse Posted March 19, 2017 Posted March 19, 2017 Yes, but I did not see this in the diagram from asbril. It seems like many of the 4-way switches I have seen do not have a neutral conductor. Hopefully, his does. I agree with you guys, except oberkc I don't see this really needing 3 conductors, unless you count the load as a 3rd conductor. I don't use z wave I use insteon but if I may comment, isn't the wiring similar? Remembering when I needed to hire an electrician for a few 3 way insteon switches here (2 of 7 gang boxes are tricky to work with) and my explanation of the wiring that clicked with him was that basically every switch box needs to be wired as if you can put a simple outlet on there and have it work. You need neutral and line (and ground) to each box. Find the box with the line (i.e. connected to the breaker panel) and connect an existing traveler wire to the line to get to the next box. Repeat for other boxes in the circuit. Only one box of course will have the load wire that you connect to that switch. Oh, and use a multimeter or get a pro.
stusviews Posted March 19, 2017 Posted March 19, 2017 Yes, but I did not see this in the diagram from asbril. It seems like many of the 4-way switches I have seen do not have a neutral conductor. Hopefully, his does. See post #4.
stusviews Posted March 19, 2017 Posted March 19, 2017 I agree with you guys, except oberkc I don't see this really needing 3 conductors, unless you count the load as a 3rd conductor. I don't use z wave I use insteon but if I may comment, isn't the wiring similar? Remembering when I needed to hire an electrician for a few 3 way insteon switches here (2 of 7 gang boxes are tricky to work with) and my explanation of the wiring that clicked with him was that basically every switch box needs to be wired as if you can put a simple outlet on there and have it work. You need neutral and line (and ground) to each box. Find the box with the line (i.e. connected to the breaker panel) and connect an existing traveler wire to the line to get to the next box. Repeat for other boxes in the circuit. Only one box of course will have the load wire that you connect to that switch. Oh, and use a multimeter or get a pro. No. The wiring for an n-way configuration for Z-Wave (and X10) requires a single traveler between the primary and secondary switches. Conventional wiring requires two travelers between all switches. Insteon needs no travelers at all. In all cases, only one switch connects to the load. Both Insteon and Z-Wave require that the load switch also have line and neutral. Insteon secondary device connect to line and neutral only, Z-Wave secondary switches are wired to a traveler (from the primary switch) and a neutral wire. Conventional n-way wiring has one end switch connected to the line and the other end switch connects to the load. Middle switches connect to two travelers from each side (total 4-travelers). Only the load needs a neutral wire. BTW, when it comes to wiring, I am a pro
asbril Posted March 19, 2017 Author Posted March 19, 2017 Yes, but I did not see this in the diagram from asbril. It seems like many of the 4-way switches I have seen do not have a neutral conductor. Hopefully, his does. Yes there are Neutral connectors and Neutral wires accessible in the switch boxes. The diagram was to show my confusion regarding the other wires / connections (traveller, line, load).
asbril Posted March 19, 2017 Author Posted March 19, 2017 Does your cable between boxes A, B, and C include two condutors (not counting ground)? Three? More? As I look at the instructions, it appears to require three conductors, plus ground. How confident are you that these switches can be used in four-way configuration? I am very confident that they CAN be used for 4-way.
asbril Posted March 19, 2017 Author Posted March 19, 2017 No. The wiring for an n-way configuration for Z-Wave (and X10) requires a single traveler between the primary and secondary switches. Conventional wiring requires two travelers between all switches. Insteon needs no travelers at all. In all cases, only one switch connects to the load. Both Insteon and Z-Wave require that the load switch also have line and neutral. Insteon secondary device connect to line and neutral only, Z-Wave secondary switches are wired to a traveler (from the primary switch) and a neutral wire. Conventional n-way wiring has one end switch connected to the line and the other end switch connects to the load. Middle switches connect to two travelers from each side (total 4-travelers). Only the load needs a neutral wire. BTW, when it comes to wiring, I am a pro I think that you have given me the solution. I must find out if there is a Line wire at C (there should be...) and make C the primary and follow your suggestions regarding te traveller between the 3 switches. As I mentioned before, there are Neutral wires in each of the switch boxes. THANKS
stusviews Posted March 19, 2017 Posted March 19, 2017 asbril, if you have three wires (a neutral and two travelers) from each 3-way switch at the 4-way switch, then is shouldn't matter where the line and load wires are--as long as line and neutral are at any one of the boxes.
asbril Posted March 19, 2017 Author Posted March 19, 2017 asbril, if you have three wires (a neutral and two travelers) from each 3-way switch at the 4-way switch, then is shouldn't matter where the line and load wires are--as long as line and neutral are at any one of the boxes. Thanks Stu. The add-on switches only have receptacles for traveller and neutral. Therefore I would think that line and load must be connected to the main switch. That seems to be my challenge. I am not installing these switches myself and will have to wait till my electrician comes and then I will ask him to find a line cable at C, so that we can move the main switch from A to C.
oberkc Posted March 19, 2017 Posted March 19, 2017 See post #4. I saw post 4. I still do not see a neutral indicated...Just two travelers.
TrojanHorse Posted March 19, 2017 Posted March 19, 2017 No. The wiring for an n-way configuration for Z-Wave (and X10) requires a single traveler between the primary and secondary switches. Conventional wiring requires two travelers between all switches. Insteon needs no travelers at all. In all cases, only one switch connects to the load. Both Insteon and Z-Wave require that the load switch also have line and neutral. Insteon secondary device connect to line and neutral only, Z-Wave secondary switches are wired to a traveler (from the primary switch) and a neutral wire. Conventional n-way wiring has one end switch connected to the line and the other end switch connects to the load. Middle switches connect to two travelers from each side (total 4-travelers). Only the load needs a neutral wire. BTW, when it comes to wiring, I am a pro Interesting. Thanks for educating. So does that mean the secondary slave switches communicate over the traveler wire back to the master switch? I thought z wave was wireless only. In an n-way setup, I assume the slave switches share the traveler wire? I see there's only a single connection for a single traveler at the master switch. Does the traveler in effect provide constant power to the slave switches? I'm not trying to get a lesson at the expense of answering the OP's question but I'm always interested in learning. Thanks.
asbril Posted March 19, 2017 Author Posted March 19, 2017 I saw post 4. I still do not see a neutral indicated...Just two travelers. I did not draw Neutral on my graphic, but I have Neutral on all 3 switches
stusviews Posted March 19, 2017 Posted March 19, 2017 Install the primary switch in box C and the secondary switches in boxes A & B. Connect the primary switch to the load. All the white wires are neutrals. Connect all three switches to a neutral wire. connect all black wires (line) together. Connect the primary switch to line. Use the red wires as the traveler from the primary switch to each secondary switch.
asbril Posted March 20, 2017 Author Posted March 20, 2017 Install the primary switch in box C and the secondary switches in boxes A & B. Connect the primary switch to the load. All the white wires are neutrals. Connect all three switches to a neutral wire. connect all black wires (line) together. Connect the primary switch to line. Use the red wires as the traveler from the primary switch to each secondary switch. Yes.... I do this over the weekend. Thanks Stu. In the unlikely case that I do not find a Line wire in C switch box , I will use one of the two Travel wires to get Line from switch box A to C.
stusviews Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 Yes.... I do this over the weekend. Thanks Stu. In the unlikely case that I do not find a Line wire in C switch box , I will use one of the two Travel wires to get Line from switch box A to C. That's exactly correct. Use the original black traveler wires to get line to all of A, B, and C and use the original red traveler wires to provide a traveler from the primary Z-Wave switch to each secondary Z-Wave switch.
stusviews Posted March 23, 2017 Posted March 23, 2017 Interesting. Thanks for educating. So does that mean the secondary slave switches communicate over the traveler wire back to the master switch? I thought z wave was wireless only. In an n-way setup, I assume the slave switches share the traveler wire? I see there's only a single connection for a single traveler at the master switch. Does the traveler in effect provide constant power to the slave switches? I'm not trying to get a lesson at the expense of answering the OP's question but I'm always interested in learning. Thanks. You are correct. Z-Wave device ordinarily use RF only to communicate (Insteon uses the powerline as a means of communication. Insteon RF is a back-up and may not be as strong/dependable as Z-Wave, but I'm unable confirm that.) But, Z-Wave secondary switches are different and use a traveler wire, not RF, to communicate with the primary switch in both directions. That makes them somewhat less costly.
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