Suggestion: Mutually Exclusive and Toggle Windows

[Mark Sanctuary]

I think the Manually Exclusive Buttons Mode window is a bit under supported in design which leads to lack of understanding. It would be helpful if it was a bit more informative like the example I have included. I can't remember if this has been suggested yet or not so I hope I am not duplicating anyone’s request.

 

 

Also I don't know what the last two lines mean in the old GUI so I left them out of the example, are they for 8 button mode?

 

 

I am guessing that the keypadlinc can't be queried for the status of mutually exclusive modes but nor can toggle mode be queried either so just keeping the status local in the ISY should be good until a keypadlinc is reset. Then the toggle mode and mutually exclusive modes would need user synchronizing anyways.

[Mark Sanctuary]

Or if you want to really do it up right the maybe two should be consolidated to a table like this in the same window. This way you could see the interactions between the settings. I am not sure if the LED can be controlled by creating a responder scene in the background so this table could also control the LEDs too.

 

[Michel Kohanim]

Mark,

 

Thank you very much for the suggestion. Unfortunately, though, your suggestion does not reflect the reality: unlike the toggle mode, where each button is on its own, mutual exclusive buttons only find meaning in relationship with other buttons.

 

For instance: when button A and B are mutually exclusive then when A is on B is off and vice versa. Assuming that buttons C and D are mutually exclusive as well, then it means that when C is on D is off and vice versa. And that's precisely why you didn't know what the last two icons were: they are the groups with capture the ME relationship between buttons.

 

I think the problem is not that this feature is "under supported in design" but that we have not provided sufficient documentation to ease the misunderstanding.

 

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

 

 

Or if you want to really do it up right the maybe two should be consolidated to a table like this in the same window. This way you could see the interactions between the settings. I am not sure if the LED can be controlled by creating a responder scene in the background so this table could also control the LEDs too.

 

[Mark Sanctuary]

That’s true because I still don't really know how it works other than it is doing something with the variables inside the keypadlincs. It’s a very confusing option and I just play with it until things work. There must be a way to make it obviously simple. Change its naming, improve it visual GUI cues, and as you suggested better docs. There has to be something because I am going to say, out of all the features in the ISY it is the hardest one to understand at the moment. I started this post because of the confusion surrounding the feature.

[Mark Sanctuary]

The reason I am providing this feedback and others is I reset my keypadlincs and it has been months since I did that. So now I am going thru the process of reprogramming them back to what I had. I have found along the journey of doing that things that are forgotten because they have not been used in months. Users should be able to return to things months later and the design should be able to provide the needed reminders and visual queues to make it easy to use again and again.

 

This is a very hard thing to do; I know because with the many tools I create for Intel I run into this same issue all the time. What I think from my side is easy to understand but I am usually looking at it from a code perspective and not a user interface perspective. I am just trying to help in this area.

[Mark Sanctuary]

Let me do this; Maybe if I understand how it works better I might be able to come up with a better suggestion for this feature. Here is what I am trying to setup with my keypadlinc:

 

    Main On
------------------
Evening | Movie
Time (A)| Time (
------------------
Night   | All
Off  (C)| Off  (D)
------------------
   Main Off

 

Evening time, Movie Time, Night Off are all the same lights, but are with seprate scenes.

- Evening time is a LED on scene that sets the default lighting.

- Movie time is a LED on Program that calls an On scene with movie time levels of lighting.

- Night off is a LED off scene that turns off the lights for evening and movie time.

- All Off is a LED off scene that turns every inside house light off.

- Main On/Off is just the load on the keypadlinc for the main can lights in the room.

 

How would I set the Exclusive modes?

[Mark Sanctuary]

So is the Exclusive Groups so you can setup a two button teeter-totter for a single scene with "one button as on" and the "other button as off"?

[Sub-Routine]

I think you want to make A, B, C an Exclusive Group and make the buttons non-toggle. A & B would be non-toggle on and C & D non-toggle off.

 

--

To make a button non-toggle on the button must be on when the non-toggle setting is created. Opposite for off, of course.

--

 

Or you could make A & B a group and allow them to toggle. Then whichever is illuminated would be the one which will turn off the scene. This would free up button C for another use.

 

I would suggest leaving All Off a toggle for All On as well.

 

This is pretty much theory on my part, I am also confused about some of the settings and I haven't experimented with a KPL much.

 

Rand

[Mark Sanctuary]

Here is a spreadsheet of what your saying I think. I do believe the two interact with each other the more I think about it. Guys please help me come up with some other situations so we can brainstorm some more on this topic.

 

[Mark Sanctuary]

So lets discuss this one on how it would be configured for toggle and exclusiveness; this situation is a fan/light combo. I am thinking the desired result would be that a LED would be on for just the fan speed that is in use.

 

    Light On
------------------
High    | Medium
Fan  (A)| Fan  (
------------------
Low     | Off
Fan  (C)| Fan  (D)
------------------
   Light Off

[Michel Kohanim]

Mark,

 

Thanks.

 

Toggle/Mutual Exclusive do not have much to do with each other. Furthermore, Toggle mode is superseded by any group command sent to that device: i.e. if you have button A in non-toggle, and if you have this button as a responder in a scene, then a controller in that scene can turn on your non-toggle button even though you had it on the "off" position.

 

Granted that our UI needs more documentation, but I believe the way we have it set up/depicted right now is the best solution (as you note, you are getting closer and closer to our original dialog).

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

 

So lets discuss this one on how it would be configured for toggle and exclusiveness; this situation is a fan/light combo. I am thinking the desired result would be that a LED would be on for just the fan speed that is in use.

 

    Light On
------------------
High    | Medium
Fan  (A)| Fan  (
------------------
Low     | Off
Fan  (C)| Fan  (D)
------------------
   Light Off

[Mark Sanctuary]

But maybe the two should be in one window called keypadlinc options so you can adjust both without having to go from window to window.

[Mark Sanctuary]

Yeah I dislike that a group command changes a non-toggle button. I have to change back my LEDs every so often its a bummer.

[Mark Sanctuary]

Since there is not much documentation and not much in this forum about these two features; we should discuss it so all can understand it. I searched the forum over and over again for this stuff but most all I found was some things before the exclusive mode was created. I tend to learn about things from their low level function and work my way up to high level interactiveness.

[Michel Kohanim]

Mark,

 

You are right. The documentation issue shall be addressed in our Wiki.

 

The concept is the same as described in KPL user guide (button grouping).

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Since there is not much documentation and not much in this forum about these two features; we should discuss it so all can understand it. I searched the forum over and over again for this stuff but most all I found was some things before the exclusive mode was created. I tend to learn about things from their low level function and work my way up to high level interactiveness.

[Mark Sanctuary]

Cool, info is what we need for the feature. Sorry about if I got pushy in this tread, I like the ISY enough I want it be the best it can. I trust you guys will get this easier to use down the road.