Thermostat Issue

[apostolakisl]

I have had this happen twice.  Not sure if it is a com issue or a bug in the firmware of the thermostat.

 

I use ISY to set a thermostat from off to cool mode.  This all appears to work, however, the unit doesn't turn on.  In this case, it is 78 degrees and the unit is set to cool at 70, but it is sitting idle.  I checked in it on it 45 minutes after the switch and it was idle and based on my logging, it was idle the whole time (plus neither the temp nor humidity changed, so I'm pretty sure it was actually idle)  I query the thermostat and it responds that indeed it is set to cool at 70, and is idle despite the temp being 78.  I was not physically there to confirm that the thermostat was on cool mode based on its own screen display. 

 

I set the thermostat to off then back to cool via ISY, and then it started cooling.

 

Could the thermostat have two places where it stores such info such that it would report one thing to ISY but in its own functional settings still be in off mode?

 

Thoughts?  Others ever have this issue?  

 

This is 2732-242 heat pump thermostat

 

Of note, when I first configured the thermostats, they were set to the correct o/b status for the reversing valve, but were heating when they should have been cooling.  I had to toggle it from o to b, then back to o again for it to work.  So, clearly the thermostats can say one thing, but be something else.  I have 5 of them, and all 5 required the same toggling back and forth to work.

[Dr Pepper]

I have the same thing with heating.  Have to cycle the power and it will work.  I think there is a thread on cocoontech or the smarthome forum about it.

[apostolakisl]

I wrote a couple programs to alert me in the future and to hopefully self correct the issue.  But this really sucks.

confirmAN1 - [ID 003B][Parent 003A]

If
        'Alter North' Mode is Cool
 
Then
        Wait  3 minutes 
        $i.AlterNCoolSetpoint  = 'Alter North' Cool Setpoint °
        Wait  1 second
        Run Program 'confirmAN2' (If)
 
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

confirmAN2 - [ID 003C][Parent 003A][Not Enabled]

If
        'Alter North' Heat/Cool State is Idle
    And 'Alter North' Temperature > '$i.AlterNCoolSetpoint Degrees'
 
Then
        Send Notification to 'Lou' content 'Alter North Problem'
        Set 'Alter North' Mode Off
        Wait  10 seconds
        Set 'Alter North' Mode Cool
 
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

[apostolakisl]

I changed all the programs now so the mode stays on Auto all the time.

 

I now change the temps to values that will almost certainly result in the units being idle when I want them idle.

[stusviews]

Although you found a work around, my concern (it need not concern you) is if the thermostat itself changed mode and the compressor didn't start (one type of problem) or if the thermostat itself didn't change mode (a different problem).

[apostolakisl]

Although you found a work around, my concern (it need not concern you) is if the thermostat itself changed mode and the compressor didn't start (one type of problem) or if the thermostat itself didn't change mode (a different problem).

 

I'm pretty sure the thermostat simply was "ignoring" the setting and sitting idle.  I have logs of the temp and humidity in the building from multiple thermostats and when the unit kicks on, you see things change right away.

 

I suppose that the compressor could have flipped on but not the fan, I sure hope that didn't happen.  That can't be good for the compressor and would have probably frozen up the coil.  No way to know that without being there.  Or the fan could have flipped on but not the compressor.  That wouldn't really cause any harm, but again, no way to tell without being there.  My gut feeling is that neither of those happened.  There is a wedding today and I was making sure that my algorithms were behaving properly when I discovered this issue.

[apostolakisl]

OK, I think this is a com issue.  I just set a device to cool at 94, but it kept saying "cooling".  I decided to just drive in and look at things.  The unit was not cooling, it was idle.  I did a query, yet it still said "cooling".  The query was clearly successful since the temp and humidity both changed slightly.  

 

In summary, it would seem that a query does not include cooling/heating/idle.  It must only send that at the time it changes from one to the other.

 

So, there is a good chance that when I saw "idle" earlier on the unit that should have been running, it probably was running and my queries simply don't report that value.

 

I have tried re positioning the PLM and see if that helps.

[paulbates]

There is a very long thread on this forum about how these units can be affected by noise on the 24VAC wiring from the HVAC unit. The way tell if this is it: It works immediately after you restart the unit. After X cycles, it begins to operate erratically. 

 

If this is it, the thread discusses how to put a filter between the unit and the thermostat. I experienced this with 2 units. 

[apostolakisl]

There is a very long thread on this forum about how these units can be affected by noise on the 24VAC wiring from the HVAC unit. The way tell if this is it: It works immediately after you restart the unit. After X cycles, it begins to operate erratically. 

 

If this is it, the thread discusses how to put a filter between the unit and the thermostat. I experienced this with 2 units. 

 

I don't think that is the issue, but could be wrong.  This is a 100% radio setup, only have the 5 thermostats and nothing else at all.  I pulled the logs and graphed them and it was obvious the unit actually did start at the expected time based on the precipitous change in humidity starting exactly at the scheduled time.  The PLM never picked up the com that it changed from idle to cooling, or perhaps the unit never sent it?  The change from idle to cooling would be a separate com from the thermostat as compared to the ACK in response to setting the temp and mode. It takes the thermostat a good 10 seconds after you change the mode before it actually engages the hvac and switches from idle to cooling.

 

It is clear that queries do not generate a value for the idle/cooling/heating state.  It appears to be a one off com at the time of change and if you miss it then you are done and the only way to correct it is to cycle the unit.  I did multiple queries which clearly succeeded based on other parameters updating, but not that one.

 

I don't understand why a query does not return that value.  Perhaps someone who knows the nitty gritty of com can confirm that indeed a query does not include that value.  I don't know that anyone will be able to tell me why it was done that way, makes no sense to not include it.

[larryllix]

I have found with WiFi, and Insteon, that mounting any device tight to a solid wall made of gypsum or plywood, such as a stat is, causes a comm vacuum behind it. It seems the RF signal can't get through a barrier that is very close to the antenna, very well. Make sure an Insteon rf receptor is in front of the stat, not through the wall.

[stusviews]

I have found with WiFi, and Insteon, that mounting any device tight to a solid wall made of gypsum or plywood, such as a stat is, causes a comm vacuum behind it. It seems the RF signal can't get through a barrier that is very close to the antenna, very well. Make sure an Insteon rf receptor is in front of the stat, not through the wall.

 

I had an Insteon thermostat for years and now have an Ecobee3 thermostat (WiFi) mounted on gypsum over plywood. Absolutely no difficulties with either thermostat. I don't know what caused your specific problem. Each environment differs.

[larryllix]

I had an Insteon thermostat for years and now have an Ecobee3 thermostat (WiFi) mounted on gypsum over plywood. Absolutely no difficulties with either thermostat. I don't know what caused your specific problem. Each environment differs.

I have a Venstar WiFi and a Insteon stat mounted on medium density particle board on the "away side of my router" and most Insteon dual banders. They both constantly have occasional problems. I had my house router / AP mounted against that same wall, (other side) with the same problems throughout my house. I moved it but the stats? not that critical, and no other convenient spot for an AC adapter or central heat sensing.

 

Another 10 feet away, I have a CAO Tag and an Insteon stat in my cold cellar, and on the backside of the 10" concrete basement wall beside a steel insulated door, with a steel pan and 6" concrete porch slab on top (encased), with never a comm problem. Those items are not mounted against the concrete but rather sitting on boxes about 12 inches away.

Of course the CAO Tags are not good examples as those things work through double wall steel refrigerators  / freezers without problems here.

[apostolakisl]

I continue to have issues with the thermostat report of "cooling" "heating" "idle" not getting picked up by the PLM/ISY.   

 

This is very frustrating.  There is open air between the PLM and the thermostats with the closest thermostat only about 15 feet away, and it sometimes fails just like the ones further away.  I have had failures when setting multiple thermostats all at once, or when I am only setting a single thermostat.  So I don't think it is bandwidth congestion.  

 

On the flip side, sending commands to the thermostats appears to have never failed.  And I never have issue with queries returning values.  Is there some protocol difference with the reporting of the unit status that makes this com so much more prone to failure?  And since it does not respond to query, it is a non-recoverable failure.  I have to actually get the unit to change status and then change back to get the correct reading.

 

I'm assuming that this is not an ISY issue but rather a com issue.  I'm running 100% radio as the thermostats are the only Insteon devices.

[stusviews]

No matter how many thermostats you have, only one thermostat at a time can control your HVAC (per zone). Do you have more than one zone or are the other thermostats wireless. Which thermostats are not reporting their status?

[apostolakisl]

No matter how many thermostats you have, only one thermostat at a time can control your HVAC (per zone). Do you have more than one zone or are the other thermostats wireless. Which thermostats are not reporting their status?

It is 5 separate hvac systems.

[stusviews]

Just for clarification and a recap: Are all five HVACa heat pumps? All five have the difficulty? Is control via scenes or programs? Are the scene controllers/program triggers modes or Heat/Cool Ctl?

[apostolakisl]

Yes, they are all heat pumps and I have had this issue with many, maybe all of the 5, I haven't tracked it that closely and I use some of them far more than others so those have many more opportunities to have a problem than others.  But none of that is really the issue.  This is not a problem between the thermostat and the heat pump, this is a problem between ISY/PLM and thermostat.  The actual and properly functioning state of the thermostat (heating/cooling/idle) It is not being reflected in ISY.

 

I can only assume that an "ACK" is not part of the comm for cooling/heating/idle state?  I don't know.  But when I change any of the thermostat parameters on ISY, they always are reflected on the thermostat (never had a failure changing the temp or changing the mode), but when the thermostat initiates the change from idle to cooling, or vice-versa, that comm is not necessarily making it to ISY.