gregf Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 I just had a Kinetico water softener installed. Being non-electric with no motors or timers hopefully less to go wrong. Trying to think of a way to keep track of how often it regenerates. Any ideas ? Thanks, Greg
mwester Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 I could google, guess at your model number, try to hunt down or dig up technical manuals and parts diagrams for it... but I guess I'm just not willing to go through all that effort! Sorry, nothing personal, I'm just busy with my own stuff. On the other hand, if YOU were to post a url to the technical manual and parts breakout, I'd be sufficiently curious to see what might be possible and practical...
gregf Posted June 28, 2017 Author Posted June 28, 2017 I don't believe anything other than the owners manual is available except to dealers. https://www.kinetico.com/water-softeners/kinetico-signature-series/ https://www.kinetico.com/media/1618/15066a_manual_owners_kinetico_signature_series_wqa_extranet_032015.pdf It's a closed unit with nothing to access. There is a dial on top that indicates which of the two tanks it is using but that is it. Nothing to see here. Water drains into a the sump. Someway to detect that happening.? Or an ultrasonic detector watching the water level in the brine tank?
Teken Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 Hello Greg, I'm going to assume your looking for a Insteon solution? If so, the easiest solution is to use a Insteon *Open / Close* (Trigger Linc) sensor via its external I/O ports. Simply use a two conductor wire and insert the wire pair into the tank at the defined level you believe is the best. Right now Smarthome has their 20% off sale and if you don't care about a two year warranty you can purchase a refurbished open / close sensor before the 20% discount for $19.99: http://www.smarthome.com/refurbished-insteon-2843-222r-wireless-open-close-sensor.html A new sensor with the 2 year warranty is $34.99 before the 20% discount: http://www.smarthome.com/insteon-2843-222-wireless-open-close-sensor.html Just a simple option ~ Let us know what you end up going with.
larryllix Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 Hello Greg, I'm going to assume your looking for a Insteon solution? If so, the easiest solution is to use a Insteon *Open / Close* (Trigger Linc) sensor via its external I/O ports. Simply use a two conductor wire and insert the wire pair into the tank at the defined level you believe is the best. Right now Smarthome has their 20% off sale and if you don't care about a two year warranty you can purchase a refurbished open / close sensor before the 20% discount for $19.99: http://www.smarthome.com/refurbished-insteon-2843-222r-wireless-open-close-sensor.html A new sensor with the 2 year warranty is $34.99 before the 20% discount: http://www.smarthome.com/insteon-2843-222-wireless-open-close-sensor.html Just a simple option ~ Let us know what you end up going with. Hey Teken!! Ready for some summer at the north pole? You may have misunderstood the request (Or maybe I did?). OP is looking to detect softener regeneration by brine or water flow in a totally mechanical water softener, not when low on salt. Somebody needs to design an inside pipe impeller, with magnetic induction pulse output, we could use for flow rates and/or just flow period.
Brian H Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) Did a quick search. You can find all kinds of water flow sensors. You could find one that could pulse a I/OLinc Sensor Input or maybe the the external input on an Open/Closed sensor. Some have sealed Hall Effect sensor that may work. Others have small impellers the move on water flow. Both had pulsed outputs. Edited June 28, 2017 by Brian H
gregf Posted June 28, 2017 Author Posted June 28, 2017 The two wires from a Triggerlinc is an amazingly simple idea! Assuming the salt water will close the contacts. The water level drops during the brining and refills to the level determined by the float, so that should do exactly what I was looking for. I have an I/O Linc somewhere, just need to remember where somewhere is. Had looked at the pulsing output from a flow sensor, didn't think about connecting directly to an I/O link. Also a good idea worth trying. Wonder how the flow sensors will stand up to the salt water, or if the salt will build up on the impeller. I've seen a couple of artilcles using an ultrasonic sensor to monitor the salt level, connected to an Aurdino. A possibility to maybe try some time. I usually remember to check the salt every few weeks. Wasn't familiar with the Trigger Linc, looking at that gave me an idea for another project. A float switch to let me know if the water level is low in a fountain and turn off the pump. Thanks for the ideas! Greg
Teken Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 Hello Greg, Wire is cheap and can be had almost anywhere hence why I made that initial suggestion. If you find the two wire method doesn't offer the results you need you can always purchase a very cheap (sub $5.00) float and attach the same to the I/O ports of the Open-Close sensor. I always try to come in with the cheapest solution first and build up from there. When cheap doesn't work just throw money at it I say!!
gregf Posted June 28, 2017 Author Posted June 28, 2017 Cheap and simple are always a good combination. Though I am a fan of Rube Goldberg. Just ordered a triggerlinc and a watersensor, thanks for the sale info. The rest of the water softener story is: Who else knows that a water softener resin tank can rupture ? I sure didn't. The good news is that it's in the same room as the sump pump. Not sure how long water was pouring into the sump. Noticed the sump running constantly on a Sat morning. Hence the watersensor, though I expect this softener to outlive me. Greg
larryllix Posted June 29, 2017 Posted June 29, 2017 In the few softeners I have owned the brine tank salt levels are always higher then the liquid levels, unless the brine tank is almost empty of salts. I converted my old one to an iron filter by dumping out the resin and adding a different granular material and flushing it with some powerful, toxic, purple solution every so often. It did spring a leak at the bottom and I had to get rid of it after about 20 years of the combined functions.
gregf Posted June 29, 2017 Author Posted June 29, 2017 I'll have to measure the water level in the "float well", for lack of a better term for it. A tube that runs to the bottom that houses the float that shuts off the water going into the tank. Testing the I/O link the salt water doesn't conduct enough to trigger it. It must be right on the edge, the led comes dimly on but the status doesn't change. A float switch would have to be small to fit in the well, and not interfere with the float.
larryllix Posted June 29, 2017 Posted June 29, 2017 I'll have to measure the water level in the "float well", for lack of a better term for it. A tube that runs to the bottom that houses the float that shuts off the water going into the tank. Testing the I/O link the salt water doesn't conduct enough to trigger it. It must be right on the edge, the led comes dimly on but the status doesn't change. A float switch would have to be small to fit in the well, and not interfere with the float. I don't have a float tube in my current brine tank. I forgot about those. Perhaps a very strong magnet (coated with epoxy or other salt resistant material) could trigger a reed sensor outside the tank in a safer environment. On second thought an Insteon Garage Door Kit would probably work well. The supplied sensors can pick up the magnet from many inches away, and the ioLink comes with it and wire making it everything you would need.
gregf Posted June 29, 2017 Author Posted June 29, 2017 Will look at the float assembly to see if I could put a magnet on it and a reed switch. Another good idea. I found a 9 volt water alarm with dry contacts in addition to the alarm in my junk box. An earlier attempt to monitor my sump for high water. Could disc the alarm and have it trigger the contacts. Corrosion on the probe/wires could be a problem. Heading down the Rube Goldberg path. Fun though.
gregf Posted June 29, 2017 Author Posted June 29, 2017 I think I know. A piece of 1 inch pvc to make my own float tube, and put a float switch in it. No chance of interfering with the real float tube. 1
Teken Posted June 29, 2017 Posted June 29, 2017 I think I know. A piece of 1 inch pvc to make my own float tube, and put a float switch in it. No chance of interfering with the real float tube. Greg, Would love to see the final product once you get it all hammered out.
apostolakisl Posted June 29, 2017 Posted June 29, 2017 A float switch that is installed inside a pvc tube that you run all the way down to the bottom of the tank and have drilled some holes in it to let water in and out. Since the water level doesn't get above the salt, with a tube such as this, it won't matter, it will be "protected" from the salt and only contain water when water is present. I would design as follows. 1 inch pvc tube a float made of some material that fits inside of the pvc tube a pole or rod that you can attach to that float which is a bit shorter than the pvc tube/float como a magnet that can be attached to the top end of the pole above caps for both ends of the pvc. Reed style open/close switch as used for alarm systems. Assemble the float/rod/magnet. Drill holes along the side of the pvc to allow water in/out but not hunks of salt. Put the float/rod/magnet assembly inside of pvc, float side at the end with the holes Cap the ends Attach reed switch to outside of end of pvc with magnet Shove the hole assembly into the tank so that it sits below the level of water when the tank is making new brine. Attach magnetic reed switch to io link. Now, when water is in brine tank, it enters holes in pvc and floats the float/magnet/rod assembly to the top of the pvc where the reed switch detects the magnet and closes the circuit. Attach
KeviNH Posted June 30, 2017 Posted June 30, 2017 There are a few WiFi-enabled water softeners, but as far as I can tell, no WiFi or Z-Wave enabled control head to retrofit a standard water softener.
gregf Posted June 30, 2017 Author Posted June 30, 2017 A float switch that is installed inside a pvc tube that you run all the way down to the bottom of the tank and have drilled some holes in it to let water in and out. Since the water level doesn't get above the salt, with a tube such as this, it won't matter, it will be "protected" from the salt and only contain water when water is present. I would design as follows. 1 inch pvc tube a float made of some material that fits inside of the pvc tube a pole or rod that you can attach to that float which is a bit shorter than the pvc tube/float como a magnet that can be attached to the top end of the pole above caps for both ends of the pvc. Reed style open/close switch as used for alarm systems. Assemble the float/rod/magnet. Drill holes along the side of the pvc to allow water in/out but not hunks of salt. Put the float/rod/magnet assembly inside of pvc, float side at the end with the holes Cap the ends Attach reed switch to outside of end of pvc with magnet Shove the hole assembly into the tank so that it sits below the level of water when the tank is making new brine. Attach magnetic reed switch to io link. Now, when water is in brine tank, it enters holes in pvc and floats the float/magnet/rod assembly to the top of the pvc where the reed switch detects the magnet and closes the circuit. Attach Thanks !
gregf Posted July 7, 2017 Author Posted July 7, 2017 I found another solution, a flow switch. http://www.ebay.com/itm/322288846235 Put this on the end of the drain pipe that dumps into the basement sump. Connected this to the I/O linc. Worked as desired with no fuss. Hopefully it will not clog over time. I ordered a mag switch to pursue the float tube solution, has not arrived yet. 1
larryllix Posted July 7, 2017 Posted July 7, 2017 I found another solution, a flow switch. http://www.ebay.com/itm/322288846235 Put this on the end of the drain pipe that dumps into the basement sump. Connected this to the I/O linc. Worked as desired with no fuss. Hopefully it will not clog over time. I ordered a mag switch to pursue the float tube solution, has not arrived yet. That's awesome! Many people will have usage for that find. Softeners do a lot of clear water flushing at the end of the cycle but the salt could be a problem for some internal part maybe. Hopefully not, Price is excellent too. You da' man!
KeviNH Posted July 9, 2017 Posted July 9, 2017 Softeners do a lot of clear water flushing at the end of the cycle but the salt could be a problem for some internal part maybe. Hopefully not, Price is excellent too. It should survive exposure to salty water. These"reed switch" type flow sensors are very simple devices, there's a plastic-encapsulated captive magnet in the switch body; when water is flowing, it pushes the magnet in the direction of flow, bringing it into range to close the sealed reed switch. Sometimes it is returned by gravity, sometimes by a metal spring. 1
builderb Posted July 10, 2017 Posted July 10, 2017 Atlas Scientific has saltwater capable flow sensors, just FYI. Not the cheapest solution, but if the cheap stuff fails ya... https://www.atlas-scientific.com/flow-meters.html
larryllix Posted July 10, 2017 Posted July 10, 2017 One thing to keepin mind is that the backwashing requires fast flow to "fluff up" the resin beads and break down any calcium clumping. A sensor that creates any restriction make damage your softener function, and in the latest case I saw last year, all the plumbing fixtures in the house. Insurance does NOT like to pay for home owner negligence replacing every clogged water fixture. It's mainly at the tee intersection restriction for the three hole fixtures and steam heads in showers may require replacement of all stall tiling to access. It can get complicated real quick.
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