apostolakisl Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 Perhaps someone may find use of my experience. I needed to get ISY comm from one building to another that is about 100 feet away at the closest spot. 1) First try was to put an RF device on each building as near as possible to each other. It worked like crap. 2) Second try works perfectly. We have a conduit between the two buildings which I installed to run fiber in to link IP networks on the two buildings. I ran a small gauge lamp wire (it took 250') between the two buildings through the conduit and installed a plug at each end. At the ISY side, it plugs into the same outlet as my PLM. In the second building I plugged an RF repeater which is centrally located. To my shock, the RF covers the entire building without any more repeaters (I only have RF thermostats in that second building at present). The RF repeater is basically just at the end of a 250 foot extension cord. Since it pulls less than 1 watt, no big deal on a 250 foot 18 gauge extension cord. So long as I don't do anything to physically connect the wiring between buildings, I should be fine with lightening strikes and other ground potential issues. Which is why I used fiber for the IP stuff. I think I may epoxy in the rf repeater so no one gets any ideas about plugging something else in to it. Or I suppose I could open it up and hardwire the power cord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 Wow, simple solution. Sometimes it is just thinking outside the box for the solution to a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryllix Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 Excellent! What is the "Rf repeater"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apostolakisl Posted July 5, 2017 Author Share Posted July 5, 2017 Excellent! What is the "Rf repeater"? I'm using a on/off wall module. Probably I should plug up the outlet on it so no one tries to use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 It's a code violation to run electric power through the same conduit as fiber optic cable. It's also a code violation to use lamp cord for that purpose. Your Certificate of Occupancy for both buildings is at risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apostolakisl Posted July 6, 2017 Author Share Posted July 6, 2017 It's a code violation to run electric power through the same conduit as fiber optic cable. It's also a code violation to use lamp cord for that purpose. Your Certificate of Occupancy for both buildings is at risk. Yup, not worried about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryllix Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 Yup, not worried about it. IIRC You're in Northern Pennsyltucky. The code is different there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 It's a violation of both the Canadian and National electric codes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apostolakisl Posted July 6, 2017 Author Share Posted July 6, 2017 It's a violation of both the Canadian and National electric codes. I'll put a 100ma fuse on it. Might not make it code, but damn near rules out anything bad that could possibly happen even in the most creative person's mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 That doesn't rule out the risk of discovery even if something unrelated occurs. My only reason for posting was to make you aware in the event you didn't already know. There's probably no extant structure without a code violation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apostolakisl Posted July 6, 2017 Author Share Posted July 6, 2017 That doesn't rule out the risk of discovery even if something unrelated occurs. My only reason for posting was to make you aware in the event you didn't already know. There's probably no extant structure without a code violation No one is going to discover anything. This in not in any city limits and following code is pretty much optional. There is no CO. The only inspection is the fire marshal since the closest city runs the fire here. The don't know squat about inspecting for any code aside from fire ratings on walls, fire extinguishers, fire exits, fire signs, fire lighting . . you get the drift. The "safety" of this does slightly concern me only in that someone might try to use the power through this wire to do something besides run a .7 watt device. The fuse will fix that. 100ma would blow around 12 watts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtara92101 Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 No one is going to discover anything. This in not in any city limits and following code is pretty much optional. There is no CO. The only inspection is the fire marshal since the closest city runs the fire here. The don't know squat about inspecting for any code aside from fire ratings on walls, fire extinguishers, fire exits, fire signs, fire lighting . . you get the drift. Just the post-fire inspection by the insurance company... I see no reason why it's not possible to design a fiber-optic Insteon extender. As well, it could be done using ANY transmission medium (TCP/IP Ethernet/WiFi). Wonder why nobody has done so? Or have they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apostolakisl Posted July 6, 2017 Author Share Posted July 6, 2017 Just the post-fire inspection by the insurance company... I see no reason why it's not possible to design a fiber-optic Insteon extender. As well, it could be done using ANY transmission medium (TCP/IP Ethernet/WiFi). Wonder why nobody has done so? Or have they? I asked about an IP solution to extended Insteon a while ago. Lots of "it could be done" but no one could say how to do it. You would need to AD/DA converters, one at each end that hears all at 915mhz, delivering/receiving the digital part of the signal to IP. Or maybe you could "hack" an RF extender and attach an antenna lead to it that you run between buildings. This is not a fire hazard. It runs in a conduit in the ground. What is going to catch fire? The dirt? I suppose if there is a failure in the wire insulation and it shorts either to ground or neutral, it could over-draw the circuit and if the circuit breaker fails, then it could start a fire in the building. Of course, any power consuming item can do that. . . that is why circuit breakers exist (it's not to stop electrocution, it's to stop fires), Adding a 100ma fuse to the wire will put an end to that particular risk. Of note: the wire is not running in enclosed wall spaces. There is a box at each end of the conduit which is mounted on the outside wall where the conduit enters the buildings. At that point it runs into a room in each building, not into the walls. So the wire within the building at each end is no different than any extension cord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwester Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 ... I see no reason why it's not possible to design a fiber-optic Insteon extender. As well, it could be done using ANY transmission medium (TCP/IP Ethernet/WiFi). Wonder why nobody has done so? Or have they? Economics. In a nutshell, one would have to completely reverse-engineer the Insteon protocol to do it effectively, and based on Smarthome/Smartlab's previous behavior, one would get ZERO assistance or support from them. This would make QA and testing very challenging. And the return on this? Very few customers, so the unit cost would be huge. Frankly, I'd much rather spend the same effort (or less, since it's more open) building a fiber long-distance relay for z-wave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apostolakisl Posted July 6, 2017 Author Share Posted July 6, 2017 Economics. In a nutshell, one would have to completely reverse-engineer the Insteon protocol to do it effectively, and based on Smarthome/Smartlab's previous behavior, one would get ZERO assistance or support from them. This would make QA and testing very challenging. And the return on this? Very few customers, so the unit cost would be huge. Frankly, I'd much rather spend the same effort (or less, since it's more open) building a fiber long-distance relay for z-wave. I agree, putting the signal onto fiber would have very few interested parties. Putting into IP could be popular. If you had two wifi devices that talk to each other and repeat insteon signals the same as the current ones repeat the rf or plc it could see a reasonably sized market. Once the signal is on IP, it can travel via CAT wire, fiber, wifi, cellular data, or whatever other IP method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwester Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 I agree, putting the signal onto fiber would have very few interested parties. Putting into IP could be popular. If you had two wifi devices that talk to each other and repeat insteon signals the same as the current ones repeat the rf or plc it could see a reasonably sized market. Once the signal is on IP, it can travel via CAT wire, fiber, wifi, cellular data, or whatever other IP method. Hmmm... good thought -- and IP tunnel protocol for HA would indeed have huge potential. It would be challenging for Insteon, since it has a lot of timing-related issues as the protocol stands (so it's more suited to something like "bridging" aka link-level tunneling, requiring quality-of-service support for timing, etc. I think something like that already exists for z-wave (Zwave-over-IP IIRC). But I'm compelled to wonder if an ISY<->ISY tunnel might be the ideal answer here. If a pair of ISYs could "mirror" each other's nodes, using a dedicated TCP connection, that opens up worlds of possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apostolakisl Posted July 6, 2017 Author Share Posted July 6, 2017 Hmmm... good thought -- and IP tunnel protocol for HA would indeed have huge potential. It would be challenging for Insteon, since it has a lot of timing-related issues as the protocol stands (so it's more suited to something like "bridging" aka link-level tunneling, requiring quality-of-service support for timing, etc. I think something like that already exists for z-wave (Zwave-over-IP IIRC). But I'm compelled to wonder if an ISY<->ISY tunnel might be the ideal answer here. If a pair of ISYs could "mirror" each other's nodes, using a dedicated TCP connection, that opens up worlds of possibilities. A "slave" ISY at your remote locations could effectively be the same thing. And perhaps cost less since the slave unit could just be the basic model and you already bought the primary unit. Perhaps the tunnel could be managed by the ISY portal. It wouldn't repeat all insteon traffic, it would only repeat traffic from linked devices (which would almost certainly be everything, but it wouldn't have to be). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Pepper Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 You would think Insteon RF would get 100 feet easy open air. We decided not to go with Insteon at work and support Zwave because of reliability and QC issues plus no locks. Zwave open air testing exceeded 300 feet and we stopped (one of the guys was across the street and could go no further). That was using el cheapo Intermatic Brand devices (discontinued years ago). We make some proprietary 900 Mhz transceivers at work. We have gotten 150 feet in a factory setting with lots of intervening walls, tons of EMI from the manufacturing environment etc so it is possible (I am sure someone has done even better). Open air some guys went to the beach (they are battery powered) and got almost 500 feet I heard. Some neighbors and I considered adding a few Insteon switches to their houses and also linking our alarms in a manner that if someones system trips (alarm or outside motions) to turn the outside lights and strobes on in the adjacent houses as well to scare people off. My house with the ISY would be the central controller. We get a TON of car break ins here (a bunch just last night a few blocks over). Guys wearing camo face masks, hats, black clothing and a lookout/getaway driver last night per the Facebook posts. They are getting into locked and alarmed cars without setting the alarms off. County police arrived in less than three minutes when someone driving by saw and called them. They were gone when the police arrived so we suspect that they had a scanner and were not just some drug addicts looking for misc things to fence for drug money. I have significant outside lighting on all night and 9 exterior cameras and have been lucky so far. Its a nice neighborhood the perps are usually from Brooklyn or Queens (I am in Western Suffolk Long Island 20 miles away). I placed a dual band device on each corner of my house (outside) plus 4 Outletlincs on the front just to cover my little 75 x 100 ft property (controlling the outside lights). Tried a remotelinc in the car but was no real benefit as you had to almost be in the driveway before it would work. Bottom line I find Insteon RF range disappointing compared to what it could be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwilson Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 They should offer a RF repeater or linking device with a external antenna hat can be mounted outside.. or maybe the entire unit can be outside Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbates Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 38 minutes ago, cwilson said: They should offer a RF repeater or linking device with a external antenna hat can be mounted outside.. or maybe the entire unit can be outside Welcome to the UDI Forums! There's the outdoor outlet. The outlet doesn't have to be used, and its a dual band device that's designed to be outside, NEMA 3R tested. Despite what the temp specs say, I have outletlincs on the outside of my house that have been fine < -20F https://www.smarthome.com/insteon-2634-222-on-off-outdoor-module-dual-band.html Of course distance is a factor, and insteon devices' rf is omni directional. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbates Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 I saw your other post. 75' is plausible. You'll want both to be 'line of site' to each other if at all possible and test it pretty good over a few weeks. RF is half thinking it through and half luck.. different combinations of outlets is worth trying Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwilson Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 15 minutes ago, paulbates said: Welcome to the UDI Forums! There's the outdoor outlet. The outlet doesn't have to be used, and its a dual band device that's designed to be outside, NEMA 3R tested. Despite what the temp specs say, I have outletlincs on the outside of my house that have been fine < -20F https://www.smarthome.com/insteon-2634-222-on-off-outdoor-module-dual-band.html Of course distance is a factor, and insteon devices' rf is omni directional. Paul Wow Thank you Paul. I wasn't aware of the outdoor outlet. That might be all I need! In my case, both my buildings already have exterior outlets that face each other. On another note, relating to the earlier posts, the could offer a line carrier device that puts the signal on a wire pair isolated from power. One on each end of a piece of telephone wire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwilson Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 Thanks for the advice, sir.! cw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryllix Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 I have an out building completely coated in foil board insulation as well as a metal roof. Radios do not receive any signals unless close to a window inline with the transmitter. However, my Insteon devices there work just fine, over the powerline to my house, through a main panel in each building down the various branch circuits at each end. Some have reported Insteon over powerline at 500 feet working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwilson Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, larryllix said: I have an out building completely coated in foil board insulation as well as a metal roof. Radios do not receive any signals unless close to a window inline with the transmitter. However, my Insteon devices there work just fine, over the powerline to my house, through a main panel in each building down the various branch circuits at each end. This is good to know too. I guess I should just bite the bullet and buy a couple pieces and see what works for me!... I just wish it was a little more predictable. I hate to do a bunch of work and money and then have to return products, etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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