First issue (didn't take long)....

[apostolakisl]

Yes, I'm familiar with the reasons for three phase.  That is the whole reason I have 4 single phase to three phase transformers.

 

It seems to me that there is some magical considaration about 180 degree phase.  True, put two 180 degree phase shifted sine waves together and you can't tell it isn't single phase.  But it seems to me that it really shouldn't be so magical.

[stusviews]

Nothing magical about 180º. Consider that in DC electron flow in one direction. The electrons in one wire flow from the source toward the device and electrons in the other wire flow back to the source, so the electrons in each wire are always 180º out of phase with each other.

 

AC is exactly the same except that the direction reverses 60 times per second. There's another consideration. That's basically true when the load is balanced between the two opposing legs. If the loads are not perfectly balanced, then the neutral carries the difference.

 

That's also why only one neutral is needed for both opposite legs. The neutral can never carry more than the full load of any one leg because the maximum difference occurs only when one leg has no load at all.

[apostolakisl]

Nothing magical about 180º. Consider that in DC electron flow in one direction. The electrons in one wire flow from the source toward the device and electrons in the other wire flow back to the source, so the electrons in each wire are always 180º out of phase with each other.

 

AC is exactly the same except that the direction reverses 60 times per second. There's another consideration. That's basically true when the load is balanced between the two opposing legs. If the loads are not perfectly balanced, then the neutral carries the difference.

 

That's also why only one neutral is needed for both opposite legs. The neutral can never carry more than the full load of any one leg because the maximum difference occurs only when one leg has no load at all.

I'm talking about the "magic" of deciding to call 180 degrees "legs" and not "phases".  Not the electrons.

[larryllix]

Curious.  I haven't heard of that.  Is that pulling from two phases on the utility pole?  Not sure why that even exists, seems like it would cost a lot more and add no benefit.

 

So here is one,  single phase to 3 phase transformers are becomming fairly common now.  I've got 4 of them in my house.  Is that 3 phase or 3 legged single phase?  

This exists for a few reasons.

 

On the street, the utility can place three single phase transformers (or one three phase four wire secondary transformer),  feed a 3 phase 4 wire commercial customer, and then take a few houses off the same  transformer secondaries. Each home gets two of the three phases and a neutral.

 

Now the trouble starts with low voltage on 240 volt appliances running at only 208 Volts, by transformer design.  In this case the utility then would use transformers specially wound for this network style application, rated at 125 volts secondary. The residential customers then get 125 // 216 volts. The 240 volts runs a little low, and the 120 volts runs a little high but all within the +/- 10% allowed deviation, from the 120/240 mandated by North American laws.

 

The other scenario that comes to mind is usage in apartment buildings. A three phase four wire transformer bank is connected in the transformer vault/room and heavy bus bars are run vertically up a shaft in the high-rise building. Each apartment/condo gets two of the three phases tapped off, achieving the same voltages,  as above. The savings in this case is one neutral, saving some copper costs in the system.

 

The metering costs in this style are higher than the single phase three wire metering as it takes two full metering elements to get accurate metering. In the single phase case a fudged split coil meter can be used and costs much less. If the wrong metering is used the customer gets a 15% discount on 240 volt loads.

[larryllix]

I'm talking about the "magic" of deciding to call 180 degrees "legs" and not "phases".  Not the electrons.

The name "two phase" was already taken by systems that should be called "four-phase".

 

Two actual phases are created by splitting the single phase into two phases when you connect a  neutral to the centre tap of the transformer. If one end was connected to neutral there would be only one phase with two voltages. Without further connection definition neutral/ground is always assumed to be the reference point to measure phase and magnitude from and creates two phases by struct definition.

Grounding the centre tap also avoids higher voltages.

 

In 35 years working with utility legal meterology, I had never heard of "split-phase single phase" until Stu brought it up once. Wikipedia had never heard of a few years ago either. It was called "single phase three wire" in the utility field in my area/culture.

 

Despite it actually being two phases, nobody calls it "two phase" , from my experience.

 

This is all relative also. "Phase" can also refer to a live wire  that is  not a "neutral" in another context.  "Phase" can refer to your teenage daughter that drove you crazy.

 

Insteon's  "phase coupler" is named quite accurately because it can signal couple two different phases, regardless of 180, 120, 90, 60 or 30 degrees apart phase connections. Insteon does not specify single phase.

 

Too much time has been spent, on several forums, trying to bully  posters to talk the same, when the meaning is typically  clear,  regardless of term used.

[stusviews]

I'm talking about the "magic" of deciding to call 180 degrees "legs" and not "phases".  Not the electrons.

 

Two-phase electric supply has the legs 90º apart.  I did use the common 3-wire, split phase term, but split, single-phase became popular and, at least to me, seemed more descriptive as it is single-phase as opposed to two-phase and three-phase.

[apostolakisl]

Two-phase electric supply has the legs 90º apart.  I did use the common 3-wire, split phase term, but split, single-phase became popular and, at least to me, seemed more descriptive as it is single-phase as opposed to two-phase and three-phase.

OK, I grant you that in Philadelphia, 2-phase kind of has a specific meaning.  What a nightmere to be an electrician in Philli and have a system that exactly no one in the world uses but you.

[stusviews]

OK, I grant you that in Philadelphia, 2-phase kind of has a specific meaning.  What a nightmere to be an electrician in Philli and have a system that exactly no one in the world uses but you.

 

When in Rome ...

[thbrewst]

To check the PLM radio, 4 ways if you don't have a filter linc. OK, I'm sure there are more, but here I list 4. 

 

Also, just to be clear, I'm not referring to a bad PLM power supply (which is what the posts above refer to), I'm talking about a PLM that works except for the radio.  I have one that has a dead radio which I only discovered when I moved it to a new building where the only Insteon devices were thermostats (which are radio only).

 

1) If you have a UPS, this is the easiest thing to do. Plug the PLM into an uninterupted power supply (UPS). Then pull the plug on the UPS so that it is running on battery (and thus the PLM is totally separate from the house wires). Now check to see if the PLM can communicate with any dual band or rf-only device.

 

2) use RF only devices. Insteon makes a number of those. thermostats, water detectors, and some other things. With only the PLM and the rf-only device powered on (in other words, unplug all your lamp lincs and pull the disconnect on any installed switchlincs, etc), see if the PLM will communicate.

 

3) Plug an extension cord into your neighbors house and plug the PLM/ISY into it, bringing the PLM/ISY close to your house. Then see if it will communicate with anything.

 

4) Find two outlets in your house that are on separate phase (yes I know Stu), Turn the circuit breakers off to all 240v devices. Plug PLM/ISY into an outlet on one phase, plug a dual band device into plug on other phase, remove all other insteon devices. See if they talk.  FYI, generally speaking, circuit breakers have every other breaker on the same phase.  That is why 240v breakers tap two adjacent spots, so they can bridge the two 120's and get 240.

 

Interesting.  Per #2, Some of the new items I was trying to add (never used them before) were some water leak sensors.  Tried to link the first one and it did not read it even inches from the PLM.  Does that mean the radio in the PLM is not working?

 

Edit, scratch that.  It would not find it, but it let me add it manually.  Does that mean anything or is that typical?

[stusviews]

The leak sensor is RF only. If you were able to add it by any method, then the PLM is receiving RF. But, specifically, how did you add the leak sensor to the ISY manually?

[apostolakisl]

Interesting.  Per #2, Some of the new items I was trying to add (never used them before) were some water leak sensors.  Tried to link the first one and it did not read it even inches from the PLM.  Does that mean the radio in the PLM is not working?

 

Edit, scratch that.  It would not find it, but it let me add it manually.  Does that mean anything or is that typical?

Probably the device was "asleep".  Battery powered devices don't respond to external commands unless first "woken up".  Battery powered devices are used as sensors and are designed to be aspleep except when they sense something which wakes them up and lets them transmit.  Otherwise the battery would die very quickly.

 

Anyway, provided your PLM and the water sensor were the ONLY two devices in your Insteon setup that were powered on at the time, then your rf works.  (Just to be clear, if you had another dual band device plugged in, then it could receive a power line command and repeat to the rf which the leak sensor would pick up).

 

This points to you having a very "noisy" power line situation.  Extreme power line noise somehow blinds devices even to rf.  That would explain the lack of your dual band device working even at the close range you described.

[thbrewst]

The leak sensor is RF only. If you were able to add it by any method, then the PLM is receiving RF. But, specifically, how did you add the leak sensor to the ISY manually?

 

Link Mgt > New Insteon Device > Filled in the device ID and it found it.

[thbrewst]

After I finished adding these in, I spread them around the house to see if the ISY could communicate to them and it seems to.  Guess the only thing I don't really have an answer to is why it would not add the devices unless they were plugged in right beside the PLM.  Weird, but workable for now.

 

Next I plan to start adding the wall switches.  I've already order those connectors mentioned earlier.  Had never seen those they were pretty cool.  Way easier than wire nuts.

 

Thanks again to everyone for the ideas and guidance so far.  I'm sure this is just the beginning of my questions, but hopefully they won't be so elementary moving forward.

[thbrewst]

Further observation just now.  Was turning them all off again via the Admin console to ISY, I noticed on multiple occasions the fluorescent light in the storage room 'flashed' as I executed the command.  I assume that is telling me something...

[stusviews]

Fluorescent lights or rather the ballast are usually powerline noise injectors.

[apostolakisl]

Further observation just now.  Was turning them all off again via the Admin console to ISY, I noticed on multiple occasions the fluorescent light in the storage room 'flashed' as I executed the command.  I assume that is telling me something...

 

I assume this light is on an Insteon switch?  Is it a dimmer?  Is the light deisgned for a dimmer?  Most fluorscent lights are not.

[thbrewst]

I assume this light is on an Insteon switch?  Is it a dimmer?  Is the light deisgned for a dimmer?  Most fluorscent lights are not.

The fluorescent lights are not on an insteon, they are on a motion sensor switch so they turn on as you walk in the room. Just based on proximity I would bet that switch is on the same power line run as the outlet I am using for the ISY and PLM as they are literally 18" from the motion detector switch. In the long run will I be better off to find another place to put the ISY?

 

Also, the way the previous homeowner put the motion switch in would not be my preference so I also may just redo the wiring to make it a normal switch by the door into the room. That would not change the circuit but it would remove the motion switch if that could be causing some/all of the problem.

[paulbates]

The fluorescent lights are not on an insteon, they are on a motion sensor switch so they turn on as you walk in the room. Just based on proximity I would bet that switch is on the same power line run as the outlet I am using for the ISY and PLM as they are literally 18" from the motion detector switch. In the long run will I be better off to find another place to put the ISY?

 

 

Ideally the PLM should be located very close / at your electrical panel. The panel is the center of your electrical system and serves as the "master antenna system" for powerline communications.

 

I added a dual gang box to my panel, installed the insteon signalinc bridge in one gang, and an outlet for the PLM in the other. that gets the signal out from the powerline in both directions. I have a number of single band, powerline only devices and have no plans to change them as this setup gives my great coverage all over my house.

 

If you don't want add things to your panel or pay someone to do it, then have 2 dual band devices (one of them is the PLM) near the panel, and run the test documented in the directions for dual band device that make sure you have a dual band device on each leg. You can't tell by looking at an outlet which leg its on, the test is the best way. You may have to try the test on several outlets.

 

If you start with a signalinc and/or 2 dualband devices tested on opposite leg, that's the foundation to move forward from to start adding devices

 

Paul

[thbrewst]

Ideally the PLM should be located very close / at your electrical panel. The panel is the center of your electrical system and serves as the "master antenna system" for powerline communications.

 

I added a dual gang box to my panel, installed the insteon signalinc bridge in one gang, and an outlet for the PLM in the other. that gets the signal out from the powerline in both directions. I have a number of single band, powerline only devices and have no plans to change them as this setup gives my great coverage all over my house.

 

If you don't want add things to your panel or pay someone to do it, then have 2 dual band devices (one of them is the PLM) near the panel, and run the test documented in the directions for dual band device that make sure you have a dual band device on each leg. You can't tell by looking at an outlet which leg its on, the test is the best way. You may have to try the test on several outlets.

 

If you start with a signalinc and/or 2 dualband devices tested on opposite leg, that's the foundation to move forward from to start adding devices

 

Paul

The PLM is very close to the panel, just a few feet away. I will definitely keep playing with it and testing to see if I need to add something. All of this is one of those frustrating situations where I am educated enough to know how to 'try things' but not educated enough to actually troubleshoot when it is not working as expected. I'm in a similar boat with our home network, so getting frustrated on 2 fronts at the same time.

[paulbates]

The PLM is very close to the panel, just a few feet away. I will definitely keep playing with it and testing to see if I need to add something. All of this is one of those frustrating situations where I am educated enough to know how to 'try things' but not educated enough to actually troubleshoot when it is not working as expected. I'm in a similar boat with our home network, so getting frustrated on 2 fronts at the same time.

Yes, I've shared in that frustration in the past. All of these HA technologies have a platform/infrastructure phase where you have to get your unique property working at a signal level. The good news is that you figure it out relatively soon and then can get on with your functional automation tasks.

 

My guess is that you are pretty close. Insure phase bridging and see if you can find any noise or interference sources... motors, low voltage power transformers (including yard lights), electronics like TVs. Some of these things need a filter of some kind to keep their noise out. You find them by identifying a switch that can't be added or doesn't work... if the TV is nearby, unplug it.. .did things start working? Plug the TV into a filter linc... or if you turn off the low voltage lights, did things start working... ect

 

Paul

[apostolakisl]

The fluorescent lights are not on an insteon, they are on a motion sensor switch so they turn on as you walk in the room. Just based on proximity I would bet that switch is on the same power line run as the outlet I am using for the ISY and PLM as they are literally 18" from the motion detector switch. In the long run will I be better off to find another place to put the ISY?

 

Also, the way the previous homeowner put the motion switch in would not be my preference so I also may just redo the wiring to make it a normal switch by the door into the room. That would not change the circuit but it would remove the motion switch if that could be causing some/all of the problem.

 

If the lights are not connected to an Insteon switch, then I have no idea how they possible could be affected by your Insteon devices.  The only thing that they would be subjected to is the power line communications themselves.  Perhaps the motion sensor has some circuitry in it that is affected by Insteon com?  I have been on this forum for something like 8 years and have no recollection of anyone having random lights flicker with Insteon com.

 

The fact that you ISY/PLM is near it should not be relavent.  The PLM produces no more of a signal (rf and powerline) than any other Insteon device.  

 

The flickering I suspect is the doings of the motion sensor.  I would try removing it and see if the light still flickers.

[Brian H]

I have seen some posts. Where the Insteon power line signals caused lights not on an Insteon module to flash. Mostly LED or lights on manual dimmers.

Possible the Insteon power line commands are effecting the fluorescent lights ballast.

[stusviews]

The motion sensor is an unlikely culprit. The fluorescent ballast is highly suspect. Device do NOT need to be controlled by an Insteon device to cause noise on the powerline. In fact, most noise producers are not controlled by Insteon, a wall wart for example.

 

Disconnect the fixture and test again.

[apostolakisl]

The motion sensor is an unlikely culprit. The fluorescent ballast is highly suspect. Device do NOT need to be controlled by an Insteon device to cause noise on the powerline. In fact, most noise producers are not controlled by Insteon, a wall wart for example.

 

Disconnect the fixture and test again.

We aren't talking about noise, we are talking about the light that is controlled by the motion sensor is flickering during power line com.  This light is not being controlled by an Insteon device.  The flicker's source could either be the motion sensor or the ballast, it would be a lot easier to test remove the motion sensor than the ballast.

 

He probably hase noise as well.  But there has been no discussion as to what is causing it.  Probably not this light since it is probably off a lot of the time being that it is on a motion sensor.

[thbrewst]

For most folks the install is a one time affair. But I always suggest people go into this thinking maintenance will need to be performed.

 

Buy some Wago Nuts as they allow quick insertion and removal and saves your fingers from spinning the standard Marrettes.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I have one of these cables built and was getting ready to try it, but forgot about the 'extra wire' in the insteons.  How do you wire these into the Wago's?

 

Black and Red -> Black

White -> White

Green -> Green

 

??