3-Way Switches with only 1 neutral?

[KHouse]

I know this isn't an ISY994i / Insteon communication issue, but was hoping someone with the knowledge on this board could help me with this.

 

So far all of the Insteon switches I have installed have had a neutral wire in the box where the switch was located, so no problem.

 

Today I decided to replace my master bedroom switches to Insteon, which also happens to be the first 3-way configuration I'm switching over to Insteon.

 

I'm finding one box has the neutrals in it, like usual, but the other box does not have any neutrals.

 

Do both switches need to have the netrual connected, or is just one (presuming the main one, their "secondary" switch as they call it) good enough?

 

Thanks for any help.

[Brian H]

No both need a Neutral Power Connection.

Many times you can rewire the traveler wires between them to provide the needed Line and Neutral in both locations.

If you see a White wire on one of the switches terminals it is not a Neutral. Probably a Line feed and should have a black stripe on it to indicate that. Neutrals are many times bundled to together in the back of the box with a wire nut.

 

If you have not downloaded the full manual for them. I believe three way installations is covered in it.

You power both with the Line and Neutral and feed the Load from one of them and cap off the Load in the other position. Then link them together so each controls the other one.

[KHouse]

Thanks for the tip.

 

The neutral in the one box is in fact a neutral (a few of them bundled together), so will "steal" one of the travelers to pull the neutral from one box to the other.

[stusviews]

In a standard 3-way configuration, the neutral is never connected to a switch. The white wire that is connected to a 3-way switch is never a neutral wire, but it can be re-purposed to be one. BTW, see my response where you posted in another forum for terminology.

[KHouse]

In a standard 3-way configuration, the neutral is never connected to a switch. The white wire that is connected to a 3-way switch is never a neutral wire, but it can be re-purposed to be one. BTW, see my response where you posted in another forum for terminology.

 

I saw your response, and thanks for the help there and here.

 

Yes, the white wires / neutral were not connected to the existing 3 way setup at all.  The white wires/neutral wires were bundled together and only to each other in the box.  I tapped into this bundle for the neutral, and setup the 2 switches by re-purposing one of the traveler wires to bring neutral over to the other box where there were no neutrals.

 

So far all is good.  Everything works correctly, and no smoke or fire. 

 

On a side note:

 

When linking these devices to the ISY, should I only link the "primary" switch, and not link the secondary switch to the ISY at all?  Or should I link them both to the ISY and make one a controller and one a responder?  I did cross link them to each other, and they both operate correctly and move the LED up and down from off/on for each other as should.  They switches are operating correctly, but just want to be sure I link them to the ISY correctly now.

 

I use the ISY to control certain programs, and use MobiLinc to control the lights from my phone.

[stusviews]

The ISY doesn't recognize any links you create manually, but that doesn't matter if you create a scene. Make both devices controllers, that's it.

 

Edit: use scenes wherever/whenever possible. Programs introduce a delay and won't work if the ISY is down for any reason. Once a scene it created, the ISY is not needed at all.

[KHouse]

The ISY doesn't recognize any links you create manually, but that doesn't matter if you create a scene. Make both devices controllers, that's it.

 

Is there any harm in leaving off the 2nd switch (the secondary switch)?  I'm thinking about just linking the primary switch to the ISY, as this is "the" switch that will be used to turn the lights on or off from MobiLinc, and if I have all lights turn on (say when a fire alarm goes off and an ISY program triggers all lights to come on).

 

Is that reasonable, to link just 1 switch and leave the other out of the ISY completely, or is there a good reason to link both of them to the ISY?

[stusviews]

If both switches are on and you turn off the primary switch, then the secondary will still indicate that it's on; if they're both off and you turn on the primary, then the secondary will still show as being off.

 

If both switches are on and you turn off the secondary switch, then nothing will happen at all; if they're both off and you turn on the secondary, then the load will still be off.

 

If the manual cross-linking remains in place, then manually controlling the switches should still work. But why would you not include the secondary switch in the scene? Do you have a good reason for doing so, or should I say not doing so?

[KHouse]

If both switches are on and you turn off the primary switch, then the secondary will still indicate that it's on; if they're both off and you turn on the primary, then the secondary will still show as being off.

 

If both switches are on and you turn off the secondary switch, then nothing will happen at all; if they're both off and you turn on the secondary, then the load will still be off.

 

If the manual cross-linking remains in place, then manually controlling the switches should still work. But why would you not include the secondary switch in the scene? Do you have a good reason for doing so, or should I say not doing so?

 

Is there a scene particularly they should be tied to?

 

This is my first 3-way setup that I've converted to Insteon, so I guess I just assumed that if I cross linked them, they would work as one.  (turn one on, and the other will also show turned on, turn one off, and the other will also show turned off (as indicated by the LEDs on them), and also either one would turn the actual light on or off).

 

Last night I realized that is not the case (as you mentioned in your post), as I think the manual cross link broke and it wasn't working as I thought it should/would.

 

Is there a scene I need to set specifically in the ISY to handle 3 way switches correctly so that they both turn the light on/off, and they both show the proper indication via the LEDs on the switches if the light is on or off?

 

Thanks again for your help.

[paulbates]

Is there a scene particularly they should be tied to?

 

This is my first 3-way setup that I've converted to Insteon, so I guess I just assumed that if I cross linked them, they would work as one.  (turn one on, and the other will also show turned on, turn one off, and the other will also show turned off (as indicated by the LEDs on them), and also either one would turn the actual light on or off).

 

Last night I realized that is not the case (as you mentioned in your post), as I think the manual cross link broke and it wasn't working as I thought it should/would.

 

Is there a scene I need to set specifically in the ISY to handle 3 way switches correctly so that they both turn the light on/off, and they both show the proper indication via the LEDs on the switches if the light is on or off?

 

Thanks again for your help.

 

• Remove all manual links (factory resetting them is easiest)
• On the admin console link menue, create a new scene
• Drag and drop each switch on to the scene
• When the pop up asks, make each a controller in the scene

When you want the ISY to turn this new "virtual circuit" on or off,

• use Set <scene name> On (or Off).. with ISY programs don't directly control each switch
• turn the scene on and off with mobile apps, not the individual switches

 

Paul

[jtara92101]

ISY serves/can serve several roles in an Insteon network:

 

- automation via programs

- a configuration tool for Insteon networks

- gateway to mobile apps, etc

 

If you fail to link any devices to the ISY, you are not taking advantage of one of the primary purposes of ISY - configuration of your network.

 

Manual configuration is painful, and doesn't leave a documentation trail. It is MUCH easier to configure your network using ISY, and then you have it documented with no additional effort.

 

Link EVERY device to the ISY, and only configure devices with ISY.

 

----

Why neutral? It's how the device itself gets power. Thus, EVERY device needs neutral (save some special 2-wire devices that don't! Those are only usable with incandescent lighting, and only when wired to a load, as they complete the circuit through the load to power the device.)

[stusviews]

If you cross-linked the switches, then you do NOT need to unlink them. When you create a scene with both switches as controller, the ISY cross-links then exactly as manually cross-linking does. The switches see identical links whether manually created or via a scene. The only difference is that the ISY is aware of the scene only, not the manual links.

[KHouse]

Thanks for the input folks.  I've got a busy morning tomorrow, but hoping to play around with the switches / links / scenes, etc....tomorrow afternoon or evening.  I'll report back here if I have any questions regarding that as I'm still confused as to why I should create a scene to run the 3-way setup...but maybe after toying around a little bit with it it will make sense.

[stusviews]

You do not need a scene if you manually cross-linked the devices and will control them only manually ever. You do need a scene if you want to use the ISY in any way at all with the 3-way configuration.

[paulbates]

+ 1

 

With local linking, the ISY will see and control the individual switches.  However, the ISY will be completely blind to, and unaware of, the locally/manually established linking and the existence of the 3 way. You won't be able to control the 3 way with ISY programs, mobile apps, alexa, etc .. if its manually linked and not a scene.

 

Paul

[larryllix]

Thanks for the input folks.  I've got a busy morning tomorrow, but hoping to play around with the switches / links / scenes, etc....tomorrow afternoon or evening.  I'll report back here if I have any questions regarding that as I'm still confused as to why I should create a scene to run the 3-way setup...but maybe after toying around a little bit with it it will make sense.

ISY makes scene management easier than doing it manually at the switches, plus the benefits mentioned by Stu and Paul.

 

You could write ISY programs to do a three way switch  configuration but you will always see a delay that can be annoying.

[lilyoyo1]

Technically you don't have to link them in the ISY and create a scene. You can manually link them as stated. However, should you later decide to write programs to automate that scene, you could run into potential issues.

 

Manually doing anything with insteon when you have a system that does it for you will end up causing you more problems than they solve. While it may seem like a small and trivial item everyone is pushing you towards proper use due to their own and others experiences. They ISY is not a device that you want to take short cuts with or develop bad habits with as it will be a greater headache later.

 

If you have multiple 3 ways, you could always link 1 with the ISY and leave the other alone. Live with it and see what the difference is. Maybe it doesn't bother you and maybe it does. That experience will however help you understand why people say what they say