Access Point

[ABLE1]

Hello all,

 

I have been reading about various communication issues on a few threads.

 

Needless to say I would not be doing this if I was not having troubles .  In the threads 

that I have read there is mention of a "Access Point" being used to help with signal

communication for the PLM and Insteon Devices.   It was mentioned a few times 

of using a "Access Point" to piggyback the PLM.  

 

My challenge is that when I do a search on Smarthome Web Page the item that comes

up is the ITEM #: 2992-222  Insteon Plug-in Range Extender.    This device does not appear

to have the ability to piggyback anything.  

 

If possible would someone please provide an Item Number for the "Access Point" that is being 

discussed.  I would like to get a few but to help with the system I am presently working 

on to correct some problems.

 

Another part of the discussions talks about a "Filterlinc".  When I search for that the only

device that comes up in the  

INSTEON PLUG-IN 10-AMP PLUG-IN POWERLINE NOISE FILTER  ITEM #: 1626-10

 

Again is that the device being discussed??  Sorry to be asking for information that may

already common knowledge but I do find this challenging to say the least.  Adding that 

to the other issues makes for a very bad day.  

 

Thanks for the help and have a good rest of your weekend.

 

Les

 

 

 

[larryllix]

Hello all,

 

I have been reading about various communication issues on a few threads.

 

Needless to say I would not be doing this if I was not having troubles . In the threads

that I have read there is mention of a "Access Point" being used to help with signal

communication for the PLM and Insteon Devices. It was mentioned a few times

of using a "Access Point" to piggyback the PLM.

 

My challenge is that when I do a search on Smarthome Web Page the item that comes

up is the

ITEM #:

2992-222

Insteon Plug-in Range Extender. This device does not appear

to have the ability to piggyback anything.

 

If possible would someone please provide an Item Number for the "Access Point" that is being

discussed. I would like to get a few but to help with the system I am presently working

on to correct some problems.

 

Another part of the discussions talks about a "Filterlinc". When I search for that the only

device that comes up in the

INSTEON PLUG-IN 10-AMP PLUG-IN POWERLINE NOISE FILTER ITEM #: 1626-10

 

Again is that the device being discussed?? Sorry to be asking for information that may

already common knowledge but I do find this challenging to say the least. Adding that

to the other issues makes for a very bad day.

 

Thanks for the help and have a good rest of your weekend.

 

Les

Forget the Access Points. That was a concept used before dual band Insteon devices replaced the concept.

 

Two dual band Insteon plug-ins will do the same thing to transport Insteon signals wirelessly between house electrical phases or legs.

 

The side benefit is they will also echo your other devices signals, strengthening your Insteon network, as well as performing as lamp or appliance controllers in each unit.

 

Sent from my SGH-I257M using Tapatalk

[stusviews]

Access Point is the old name for the Range Extender. The current PLM is dual-band so there's no sense plugging anything into it. In fact, the PLM does not have a pass-through, so it's not possible to piggyback anything.

 

It is common to plug a Range Extender into the pass-through-outlet on an I/O Linc because the I/O Linc is powerline only.

 

The filter you referred to is the FilterLinc and is the only filter available. Some years ago there was both a 5 amp and 10 amp filter, but now just the 10 amp filter.

 

But, what are the troubles you are having?

[ABLE1]

Hi Larry & Stu,

 

So then I guess I may have been reading some old posting or something.  

 

I have installed for a customer last year and ISY with PLM and about 15 ToggleLink switches.

All was working fine and now certain devices stopped working and are not even communicating.

 

Today, I swapped out one of the switches with a new and the tried to auto learn.  Would not connect.

 

They have recently added some new WiFi Points in the house with some other network devices.

Didn't think that was the problem but I thought maybe it would be helpful to add some extra

devices to help with the communications.  

 

I do have a signal bridge at the breaker panel and also check today and some of the non working are

on the A phase and some are on the B phase.  So that should not be the issue.

 

This is the first system of this type that I have installed and it worked basically "out of the box".

Now, it has become a pain and I am trying to relearn what little I learned previously.  

 

Any thoughts or direction I should be look at??

 

Thanks,

 

Les

[larryllix]

Missing links....

 

In the devices. ISY makes it easy to check, compare, and restore links.

 

Sent from my SGH-I257M using Tapatalk

[ABLE1]

Missing links....

 

In the devices. ISY makes it easy to check, compare, and restore links.

 

Sent from my SGH-I257M using Tapatalk

 

Yes, I will need to do that.

It is challenging when the customer is asking questions, comments, and making changes

all the while I am trying to figure out what is or is not working.

 

Thanks,

 

Les

[ABLE1]

BTW are there any known issues with CFL's, LED's or Dimming LED's ??

[stusviews]

There are known issues with CFLs, fewer with LEDs, dimmable or not. That's Insteon in general. ToggleLinc dimmers are rated for incandescent bulb only, the on/off ToggleLinc is rated for incandescent bulbs and/or inductive loads (e.g., motors, heaters).  Did they change from incandescent to another type of bulb? If so, then that's the culprit.

[ABLE1]

There are known issues with CFLs, fewer with LEDs, dimmable or not. That's Insteon in general. ToggleLinc dimmers are rated for incandescent bulb only, the on/off ToggleLinc is rated for incandescent bulbs and/or inductive loads (e.g., motors, heaters).  Did they change from incandescent to another type of bulb? If so, then that's the culprit.

Ok, they had changed the foyer lights to LED's.  So what happens when bulbs are not incandescent?? 

Does the electronics of the bulb absorb the signals or corrupt the data in some way??

 

As a test we removed all (about 11) and replaced one(1) with a incandescent.  Nothing changed.

But, if the thinking is that the ToggleLink switches lost the link then they wouldn't work.  There are

about 4 ea. ToggleLink switches on that 4-way circuit.

 

In another circuit there was four(4) lamps one(1) of which was a CFL.  Removed the CFL and nothing.

That is where I replaced the switch with a spare new unit, and could not link.  It was at that point

I had to leave in order to recapture my brain, and regroup. 

 

Again thanks for any insight!!

 

Les

[Brian H]

It depends on the LED bulbs design.

Some have a capacitor across the AC input to kill internal noise. This cap will also absorb Insteon power line signals. Sometimes causing a can turn On but not Off symptom. When On it absorbs the power line Off command.

Some add a small coil on the Line input to isolate the capacitor from the AC. They are fine most times.

Some are just plain AC noise makers and can cause issues.

 

The 2274 Two Wire RF only Switchlinc. Gets is power through the load. It only works with an incandescent or 120 volt halogen power saver as a load.

It will choke on a CFL or LED load.

 

If anything has changed or added to the system. It maybe making power line noise or doing signal absorption.

Jeff has a good set of troubleshooting tutorials for X10. Much of the information on things like noise makers and signal suckers can also apply to Insteon power line commands.

http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm

[ABLE1]

Thanks Brian,

 

I am concerned that the problems are due to multiple LED's and some CFL's being added to various circuits.

This system is strictly lighting only.  The latest is that they have added some new WiFi Points in the house

with some other network devices.  Also, there are presently no filtering devices installed.  There are of course

UPS, Router, Computers, Printers, and all of those other devices that can cause unseen problems.

 

I think I will get a few of the plug-in noise filters #1626-10 units.  Then do a Restore of Links.

Hopefully that will clear up most of the issues.

 

Thanks again.

 

Les

[Brian H]

If the WiFi Points are powered by switching wall warts. Some of them have been known to cause issues.

[ABLE1]

If the WiFi Points are powered by switching wall warts. Some of them have been known to cause issues.

They are PoE with an injector plugged into the wall outlet.

[mwester]

Ok, then the injector plugged into the wall outlet may be an issue...

 

Basically, any switching power supply can cause interference.  That includes almost every modern power supply -- transformer-based power supplies are pretty much ancient history at this point.

 

Note that size is irrelevant.  Some of the worst noise generators I've ever encountered were cell phone chargers -- a cheap Chinese clone of the ubiquitous Samsung charger.  I threw them out; that was cheaper than buying yet more of the Insteon FilterLincs.

 

And yes, this may mean that you will have almost everything in the house plugged into an Insteon FilterLinc.  I do - my walls are littered with those ugly FilterLincs.  And extension cords and power strips in an attempt to minimize the number of FilterLincs (they're expensive as well as ugly).

 

As for lighting -- I've tossed most of the cheap LED bulbs, along with all of the CFLs I used to have.  I use nothing but the Phillips Warm Glo bulbs at this point (they are well-behaved), with the exception of a bunch of very old LED bulbs (explanation: the very expensive first-generation LED bulbs seemed to have higher-quality internal power supplies that play well with Insteon; these same manufacturers quietly lowered their costs later on by using cheaper designs while leaving the product number the same -- these include Cree and Feit; avoid these at all costs).

 

And of course, UPS systems need to be on filterlincs too.  Along with many powerstrips that are labelled "surge suppressor"; these devices do not generate noise, but they suck out the Insteon signal.

 

<opinion>

I've stated many times here: given the realities of technology and economics, it's naive to assume that every home automation enthusiast will be willing to replace all their LED bulbs, or put all their appliances, devices, chargers, etc, behind FilterLincs.  Insteon had a good run, but the days of power-line signaling are over, much like the days of Morse Code and spark-gap transmitters are over.  Alas, Insteon's dual-band technology is tied so tightly to the powerline zero-crossing that it doesn't really solve the problem.  The conclusion is clear: it's time to diversify.  UDI sees this (they've added z-wave support, and are working to make it a full peer to the Insteon devices) -- encourage your customer to sit tight for a while, until the 5.x version of ISY firmware is out of "alpha" test, and then start moving to z-wave devices.  And by-the-way, z-wave is not a panacea either, but at least it has a future.

</opinion>

[stusviews]

Consider one circuit at a time. Turn off all circuits except on that has a problem. On that particular circuit, unplug or disconnect anything electronic or is not lighting. They must be unplugged, Turning something off is inadequate. Replace all the lighting on that circuit with incandescent bulbs or simply unscrew the bulb. Leave an incandescent bulb as the load in for the errant ToggleLinc.

 

If the problem disappears, then fixing the rest of the Insteon network will be easier.

[oberkc]

One consideration is a failing PLM.  Unfortunately, I cannot think of a way to troubleshoot that problem, short of replacing it with another.

[ABLE1]

I will be starting with some Insteon Plug-in 10-Amp Plug-In Powerline Noise Filter  ITEM# 1626-10

Then Re-link everything and hopefully regain control.

 

At least that is the plan.  Subject to change on the fly of course. 

 

>>>>>>>>>>

However, doing one circuit at time is another solution.  

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>

If the issue is with the PLM?? 

What are the symptoms that would be observed??

I would have thought it would be that it either worked or not. 

Is it possible for the PLM to communicate with some devices and not others??

Based on the PLM being damaged or defective that is.

 

Thanks,

 

Les

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

Les

[oberkc]

What are the symptoms that would be observed??

I would have thought it would be that it either worked or not. 

Working or not would have been my assumptions about most electronic devices, including the PLM.  However, my experience suggests that the PLM performance can degrade gradually over time, such that communications can become inconsistent and unpredictable, sometimes working sometimes not.  I had a system which had become less (though still decent) reliable over time.  Replacing the PLM was like a new system for me.  I was surprised and amazed.  Of course, I cannot say with any certainty that you are having these problems...only that you should consider the possibility.

[ABLE1]

Working or not would have been my assumptions about most electronic devices, including the PLM.  However, my experience suggests that the PLM performance can degrade gradually over time, such that communications can become inconsistent and unpredictable, sometimes working sometimes not.  I had a system which had become less (though still decent) reliable over time.  Replacing the PLM was like a new system for me.  I was surprised and amazed.  Of course, I cannot say with any certainty that you are having these problems...only that you should consider the possibility.

 

Thanks!!  Point taken.   

Any thoughts as to what caused the lack reliability??

And what was the time frame when you noticed deterioration??

 

 

I need to work through this one step at a time.  

I feel that the Filters to be needed regardless.  So I will start there.

Do appreciated the extra input.

 

Thanks,

 

Les

[stusviews]

It's wasteful of both time and money to install a filter if you haven't determined that a filter is needed. Unplug or disconnect the suspected culrpit. Just turning it off is inadequate. Does communication improve? If not, then a filter won't help.

[G W]

I've never seen the need for filters. I have 50+ devices, no filters, all LED lights, several USB chargers and a lot of power supplies. No communication issues.

 

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk

[larryllix]

I have no extenders, access points o other "extras" and about 30 Insteon devices, 5 MiLight bulbs, 5 Hues, 5 LEDenet controllers and mostly LED/CFLs all through the house. Some run on inverters, on separates circuits.

 

Right now I am cosidering getting a filter to try on a few items but I very seldom have  signal failure. I suspect my inverters make some interference at very light loads. They would be hard to filter at 50 amperes each. I am thinking simple toroids over the phase wires.

[Brian H]

Any 2413S PLM over two years old is a candidate to fail and is a know issue to many of us. So are the hardware Version 2 2443 Access Points.

 

The power supply capacitors fail and the unit becomes unstable or dies.

 

Some symptoms are Link Database is close to empty or empty. Restoring fixes sometime for awhile.

AC power cycling reset. Sometimes restores operation for a short time.

LED on side real dim or out.

If the power supply is low. It may also effect the output of the power line transmitter.

 

Smarthome indicated that a fix was instituted with Hardware 2.3. Time will tell.

 

There is a long thread here on the issue and how some of us have rebuilt ours.

http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/13866-repair-of-2413s-plm-when-the-power-supply-fails/

[ABLE1]

Any 2413S PLM over two years old is a candidate to fail and is a know issue to many of us. So are the hardware Version 2 2443 Access Points.

 

The power supply capacitors fail and the unit becomes unstable or dies.

 

Some symptoms are Link Database is close to empty or empty. Restoring fixes sometime for awhile.

AC power cycling reset. Sometimes restores operation for a short time.

LED on side real dim or out.

If the power supply is low. It may also effect the output of the power line transmitter.

 

Smarthome indicated that a fix was instituted with Hardware 2.3. Time will tell.

 

There is a long thread here on the issue and how some of us have rebuilt ours.

http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/13866-repair-of-2413s-plm-when-the-power-supply-fails/

Brian,

 

I read most of that thread.  Very interesting reading.

The equipment I am working on was installed late 2013 so some info may apply.

However, the general input was that the PLM's just died.  My situation is that this

one works on some and not other devices. 

 

Would the same cap issue apply to a PLM that may just intermittently start to fail?? 

If the PLM is the real problem.................

 

Given the discussion and the age of the PLM maybe that is a good starting point 

as well.  I can see this being a "shotgun" method of repair.  Not the best in my thinking.

 

I am also thinking that applying some filters at key points would not be a bad thing.

I also realize that it is a cost factor but still not a bad thing.  That is unless someone

can point out some detrimental effect that may happen in doing so.

 

Even if I spend the time to do some testing by pulling the plug on certain items

to see if communication improves and I find something I will need to filter that 

item anyhow.  Having the filters in hand will be better.

 

Even though I would like to try the cap replacement adventure, I just don't have the

time right now to go that path.  Maybe sometime later as an experiment.  

 

Thanks for all the assist and input.  

 

Les

[lilyoyo1]

I would follow the method Stusviews said as it will allow you to determine exactly what is going on.

 

Due to the age of the plm (4 years old) I would start there since it's bound to go at some point (even if it's not now) preventing another call in the near future.

 

Putting filters on everything can be a waste of time and money. I'd recommend ordering 1 or 2 to have on hand just in case but I wouldn't order much more than that. More than likely you wouldn't need more than that if any.