240VAC NC Relay problem after power failure

[steve-elves]

I'm using the relay module as part of a well pump program.  I have wireless leak detectors in the house, and have a program that checks to see if any of them are reporting wet; if so, the program turns the well pump off (to avoid flooding the house if I'm not home).

 

I have another program that checks to see if ALL the leak detectors are dry, and if so, it will turn the pump back on.

 

The problem I'm seeing has occurred twice.  After a power failure for the whole house, when the power returns and the ISY is back on line, the pump relay is stuck in the off position.  I can turn it on over the internet and it shows "on", but it almost instantly turns off again.  I can turn it on using the button on the front of the relay, but it turns off again.  The only way I can seem to fix the problem is to delete the device from the ISY, and add it back in again.

 

I have an identical relay module on my hot water tank, and it doesn't have the same issue.  I've looked in the event log, and I see that when I turn the pump on over the web, some program turns it off again right away.  This is more than a minor issue for me, since I share my well with a neighbor and he is unable to get water if the pump is off.  I trust him completely (he has access to my house when I am gone), but he's not a programmer and it seems a little much to ask him to figure out the ISY!

 

I think the problem might lie in my program for turning the pump off:

 

Water Shutoff - [iD 0009][Parent 000F][Run At Startup]

 

If

        Status  'Leak Sensors / LaunRm Leak Sens-Dry / LaunRm Leak Sens-Wet' is On

     Or Status  'Leak Sensors / WS Leak Sens-Dry / WS Leak Sens-Wet' is On

     Or Status  'Leak Sensors / BathRm Leak Sens-Dry / BathRm Leak Sens-Wet' is On

     Or Status  'Leak Sensors / Kitchen Leak Sens-Dry / Kitchen Leak Sens-Wet' is On

     Or Status  'Leak Sensors / BathRm Leak Sens-Dry / BathRm Leak Sens-Wet' is On

 

Then

        Set 'Waterline Valve' Off

        Set 'Pump Relay' Off

 

Else

   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

I don't understand why the status line for each sensor shows "Leak Sensors / LaunRm Leak Sens-Dry / LaunRm Leak Sens-Wet".  If I look at the program that restores the pump, it looks like this:

 

Water Restore - [iD 0008][Parent 000F][Run At Startup]

 

If

        Status  'Leak Sensors / LaunRm Leak Sens-Dry' is On

    And Status  'Leak Sensors / WS Leak Sens-Dry' is On

    And Status  'Leak Sensors / Kitchen Leak Sens-Dry' is On

    And Status  'Leak Sensors / BathRm Leak Sens-Dry' is On

    And Status  'Leak Sensors / Ensuite Leak Sens-Dry' is On

 

Then

        Set 'Pump Relay' On

 

Else

   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

As you can see, the status line is different.  I'm pretty much at a loss to figure this out.  The Event Log is a bit of help, but I can't see where it shows me the exact program that is sending the off command.  I've looked in all my other programs, and I don't see anything else turning the pump off.

 

I'd appreciate any help that anyone can give me.

 

Steve Elves

 

ISY Event Log 09-14-2017.zip

[steve-elves]

One other thing just came to mind.  The shutoff program actually tries to write to two devices - the waterline valve and the pump relay - while the restore program only writes to the pump.  The waterline valve device is actually not installed, and it shows up as a "bad" device in my main list (red exclamation point),

 

Is it possible that this is having an unexpected effect on the program? 

[stusviews]

The unreachable device (!) will have no effect on the program per se.However, the problematic device will not respond to the program's commands The device certainly will not respond it it's not installed.

 

 Some leak sensors require that they be reset manually. Have you tried that?

[apostolakisl]

I don't have any leak sensors, but I looked at the manual and it appears that thy can be linked directly to other insteon devices just like usual.

 

So why use a program?  Just create a scene with the relay and the leak sensors and put the leak sensors as controllers.

 

It looks like you have the normally open version of the relay, so you need to set the scene "on level" for the relay as "off" (yes that seems weird, but it works)

 

This basically means any time the leak sensor is triggered either from wet to dry or dry to wet, the pump shuts off.  This means that once a leak sensor has gotten wet, you would need to fix the leak, dry it off, and then manually turn the relay on.  It would not turn back on automatically . .. which is a good thing in my mind.

 

Power failures would have no impact on this setup.  Except I suppose if you had a leak start during the power failure, then power came back on, it would not turn the pump off since the pump relay would be unpowered during the power outage and not get the signal from the leak detector.  But what are the chances of that?  I suppose you could set up a program that when isy reboots it shuts the pump off to be extra careful.

 

EDIT:  Just noticed you have the NC relay (it was in the title  ).  I made my NO assumption based on the fact that your program tells the relay to turn "on", which would open the connection and turn off the pump.  Could that be your issue?

[larryllix]

You have both programs to "Run at startup", and are using status instead of "control / switched", and may not be resetting the leak detectors after detecting wet or possibly testing / installation.

 

You could use "control /switched" in all cases but then an leak detector that has already triggered would be blind to more wet triggers.

 

I see the purpose of the "Run at startup" for both programs and this is causing you the trouble. However, until you dry and reset the offending Leak Detector they are doing their jobs properly.

 

_{Corrected as per Apostolakisl below}

You cannot create scenes with more than one Controlling Device and scenes do not support And / Or logic. You need ISY programs for this as you have been doing.

 

Check the state of each LD to see whih one is locked on Wet.

[apostolakisl]

You have both programs to "Run at startup", and are using status instead of "control / switched", and may not be resetting the leak detectors after detecting wet or possibly testing / installation.

 

You could use "control /switched" in all cases but then an leak detector that has already triggered would be blind to more wet triggers.

 

I see the purpose of the "Run at startup" for both programs and this is causing you the trouble. However, until you dry and reset the offending Leak Detector they are doing their jobs properly.

 

You cannot create scenes with more than one Controlling Device and scenes do not support And / Or logic. You need ISY programs for this as you have been doing.

 

Check the state of each LD to see whih one is locked on Wet.

Whaaaaat?  I don't know if there is something special about leak sensors, but scenes can have as many controllers as you want, anywhere from zero to every device in the scene.  The converse is not true, a device can only control one scene, but there is no need for two scenes here.

 

I don't see any need for and/or logic.  It is a simple premise, if any leak sensor triggers (sends an "on") the scene turns on.  From your description of "resetting" a leak sensor, I'm assuming that leak sensors only send an "off" when manually reset (which is probably a good thing).

 

Run at startup would not be the issue.  Once startup is complete, changing the status of the relay would not trigger the program.  Frankly, I don't see how this program is triggering since it should only trigger on a change in status of one of the leak sensors.  Do you have a program not listed here that calls this program?  ie does a "run if", or "run then".

[larryllix]

Whaaaaat?  I don't know if there is something special about leak sensors, but scenes can have as many controllers as you want, anywhere from zero to every device in the scene.  The converse is not true, a device can only control one scene, but there is no need for two scenes here.

 

I don't see any need for and/or logic.  It is a simple premise, if any leak sensor triggers (sends an "on") the scene turns on.  From your description of "resetting" a leak sensor, I'm assuming that leak sensors only send an "off" when manually reset (which is probably a good thing).

 

Run at startup would not be the issue.  Once startup is complete, changing the status of the relay would not trigger the program.  Frankly, I don't see how this program is triggering since it should only trigger on a change in status of one of the leak sensors.  Do you have a program not listed here that calls this program?  ie does a "run if", or "run then".

Quite right about the number of controllers for scenes. My bad there. I don't use multiple device scenes with controllers at all.

 

Leak Detectors only send out wet/dry signals when triggerred wet by water detection, and when manually reset by a tap of the button. ISY remembers the status until told otherwise.

 

Scenes with muliple leak detectors cannot work to reset as the AND function is required to ensure all detectors are reset to dry status.

 

He is using all statuses in his "If" section  so "Run at Startup" works fine.

If he was using Control / Switched conditions, this would not be the case ('Run at Startup" could not work). Control/ switched logic always tests False unless they, themselves are doing the triggerring at the time. More than one logic line can never be true simultaneously. With AND logic the If section could never be True.

[apostolakisl]

Quite right about the number f controllers for scenes. My bad. I don't use scenes with controllers at all.

 

Leak Detectors only send out wet/dry signals when triggerred wet by water detection, and when manually reset by a tap of the button. ISY remembers the status until told otherwise.

 

Scenes with muliple leak detectors cannot work to reset s the AND function is required to ensure all detectors are rest to dry status.

 

He is using all statuses in his "If" section  so "Run at Startup" works fine.

If he was using Control / Switched conditions, this would not be the case ('Run at Startup" could not work). Control/ switched logic always tests False unless they, themselves are doing the triggerring at the time. More than one logic line can never be true simultaneously. With AND logic the If section could never be True.

 

A leak sensor that didn't get wet shouldn't need to be reset.  I would very much doubt that leak sensors respond to the scene "on" command so it would presumably still be off.  

 

If any device in a scene sends an "off", then the whole scene shuts off.  My guess is that a leak sensor that is in a scene simply does not respond to that "off" command since they must be reset locally.  A leak sensor would really only work properly if it could only be a controller.  There is no logical reason for a leak sensor to respond to anything but locally getting wet.  Having a leak sensor respond to an on/off remotely is like saying the leak sensor can control its wetness, makes no sense.

 

Assuming standard Insteon logic, any leak sensor in the scene that sends an "off" would turn the scene "off" and thus turn the pump back on.  Now, my question would be, if you reset a leak sensor that was never tripped, does it send an "off" or does it just do nothing?  If it sends an "off" no matter what, the scene would turn off even if another leak sensor were still wet.  Unless, of course, a wet leak sensor keeps periodically sending "on" commands even if it isn't reset (which would be how I would make it work).

[steve-elves]

Thanks very much to everyone that has commented so far!  It is great to hear from so many, as everyone has different experiences with the ISY.

 

I just want to clarify the particular issue I'm having.  The leak sensors are ALL physically dry - there has not been a leak at all, anywhere in the house.  The problem specifically arises after a whole-house power failure (in the latest case, our electrical utility was doing a broad upgrade in our area and power was shut off for 6 hours for the whole municipality).

 

After power was restored, all line-powered devices (such as the ISY, lights, relays, etc.) all seem to come back as visible to the ISY; the leak detectors all seem to be in an "unknown" state, as there is neither an "ON" or an "OFF" in the current state box for the wet and dry conditions.  It would be nice to know if this is actually the cause of the problem, but I don't know how to tell what program is actually turning the relay off - I can only go by the fact that there is only one program that writes to the relay!

 

Even if this is the case (which I suspect it is), this doesn't seem to explain what is going on when I "fix" the problem by deleting and re-acquiring the relay from the ISY.  I make no changes to the leak program (which is the one that turns it off) - I don't even disable it - and everything seems to be fine afterwards.

 

As a bit of background, my real-life occupation is writing and implementing control code for huge industrial control systems.  I've been doing this for 25 years, and I have worked on multiple vendors' platforms (Fisher ProVox, Emerson DeltaV, Bailey, Modicon & GE PLCs, etc.).  I think I'm reasonably proficient with Boolean and ITTT logic, which is partly responsible for my intense frustration with this problem!

 

There's clearly something going on in the background that I don't understand, and I think it is likely that it is some hardware-related "quirk" that I just don't know about.  I'd appreciate any further thoughts that anyone might have!

[apostolakisl]

If you reboot ISY only (power cycle it) but don't power cycle the whole house, does it still do it?

[paulbates]

You might try using "If Control" rather than "If Status" in your program. The issue is that that ISY is not able to query wireless insteon sensors, it has to patiently wait for them to trigger, either actual sensor reading or the heartbeat message which confirms daily that the sensor is still there and alive. When the ISY reboots, all status of the sensor is lost and that may explain it. I use "If control" with my motion sensors programs.

 

When using IF Control with a wireless device, you'll want to put a "Wait 5 Seconds" as the first line of your program before any insteon commands. Wireless devices typically transmit their messages twice, and the second transmission may clash with your program statements.

 

Using "If Control", the program will wait to get the real message from any of the sensors to act, not try to assess status

 

Paul

 

Thanks very much to everyone that has commented so far!  It is great to hear from so many, as everyone has different experiences with the ISY.

 

I just want to clarify the particular issue I'm having.  The leak sensors are ALL physically dry - there has not been a leak at all, anywhere in the house.  The problem specifically arises after a whole-house power failure (in the latest case, our electrical utility was doing a broad upgrade in our area and power was shut off for 6 hours for the whole municipality).

 

After power was restored, all line-powered devices (such as the ISY, lights, relays, etc.) all seem to come back as visible to the ISY; the leak detectors all seem to be in an "unknown" state, as there is neither an "ON" or an "OFF" in the current state box for the wet and dry conditions.  It would be nice to know if this is actually the cause of the problem, but I don't know how to tell what program is actually turning the relay off - I can only go by the fact that there is only one program that writes to the relay!

..

 

There's clearly something going on in the background that I don't understand, and I think it is likely that it is some hardware-related "quirk" that I just don't know about.  I'd appreciate any further thoughts that anyone might have!

[Teken]

INFORMATION ONLY: During the initial release of the original leaks sensor there have been several updates and revision to the firmware and hardware. Older hardware automatically reset from wet to dry (IF) and when that area was no longer wet. Later revisions of this leak sensor required the person to physically to press the set button to reset the sensor from wet to dry once you dried the sensor.

 

Older leak sensors also sent either a heart beat (ON) vs (OFF). Later Insteon firmware with the exact same version sent the opposite of (OFF) heart beat vs (ON) heart beat. As others have noted if and when the ISY Series Controller is rebooted the current status of the wet / dry nodes becomes unknown and blank. Best practices is to place the ISY Series Controller on a small dedicated UPS to ensure its last known state for all battery operated devices remain intact.

 

 Also, from personal experience do not ever assume a sensor can not trip because there is no *Visible* water. If a Insteon Leak Sensor is left on bare concrete and depending upon environment and moisture content this can absolutely trip a sensor or cause it to toggle from wet to dry at random times.

 

Don't ask me how I know this . . .

 

Lastly, if you remove the *Run at start up* for both programs let me know if you see the same behavior. You may be very surprised to see that problem(s) goes away.

[apostolakisl]

The fact that deleting the device from ISY and re-adding fixes the problem leads me to believe there is some issue with the relay itself, maybe the links are corrupted after a power cycle.  There isn't any reason that removing then re-adding the device would change the behavior of a program.

 

To test this

 

1) reboot ISY and not the relay

2) power cycle the relay and not ISY

3) power cycle both at the same time, but not the whole house

 

Which if any of these 3 things reproduces the result.

 

And I agree that it is a good idea to put ISY on a UPS (not the PLM).  I have mine set this way.

[larryllix]

Thanks very much to everyone that has commented so far!  It is great to hear from so many, as everyone has different experiences with the ISY.

 

I just want to clarify the particular issue I'm having.  The leak sensors are ALL physically dry - there has not been a leak at all, anywhere in the house.  The problem specifically arises after a whole-house power failure (in the latest case, our electrical utility was doing a broad upgrade in our area and power was shut off for 6 hours for the whole municipality).

 

After power was restored, all line-powered devices (such as the ISY, lights, relays, etc.) all seem to come back as visible to the ISY; the leak detectors all seem to be in an "unknown" state, as there is neither an "ON" or an "OFF" in the current state box for the wet and dry conditions.  It would be nice to know if this is actually the cause of the problem, but I don't know how to tell what program is actually turning the relay off - I can only go by the fact that there is only one program that writes to the relay!

 

Even if this is the case (which I suspect it is), this doesn't seem to explain what is going on when I "fix" the problem by deleting and re-acquiring the relay from the ISY.  I make no changes to the leak program (which is the one that turns it off) - I don't even disable it - and everything seems to be fine afterwards.

 

As a bit of background, my real-life occupation is writing and implementing control code for huge industrial control systems.  I've been doing this for 25 years, and I have worked on multiple vendors' platforms (Fisher ProVox, Emerson DeltaV, Bailey, Modicon & GE PLCs, etc.).  I think I'm reasonably proficient with Boolean and ITTT logic, which is partly responsible for my intense frustration with this problem!

 

There's clearly something going on in the background that I don't understand, and I think it is likely that it is some hardware-related "quirk" that I just don't know about.  I'd appreciate any further thoughts that anyone might have!

If the status fields are blank then ISY has never received a Dry signal from the Leak Detectors. The reset buttons must be pressed to accomplish this.

 

@Paul. He is using four LDs with AND logic. Using control / switched with AND logic can not work as four will never be processing True signals simultaneously inside ISY.  It can't work with the intermittent nature of the signal logic.  Status must be used for that program only and the "Run at Startup will never function either. The Wet program can use other but I would prefer not to use status at all.

[steve-elves]

As per the suggestion of @apostolak, I first tried rebooting the ISY.  Problem did not appear.  I then turned off the pump from my breaker panel, and then back on again.  Problem did not appear.  Finally, I powered both the ISY and the pump relay off, waited 30 seconds, then powered both back on (within 5 seconds of each other).  Voila!  Problem reoccurred. 

 

I have another identical relay (same revision) on my hot water tank.  No problem with it at all.

 

Again I had to delete and add back the pump relay to ensure it would stay on.

 

Anyone have any ideas?  

[apostolakisl]

As per the suggestion of @apostolak, I first tried rebooting the ISY.  Problem did not appear.  I then turned off the pump from my breaker panel, and then back on again.  Problem did not appear.  Finally, I powered both the ISY and the pump relay off, waited 30 seconds, then powered both back on (within 5 seconds of each other).  Voila!  Problem reoccurred. 

 

I have another identical relay (same revision) on my hot water tank.  No problem with it at all.

 

Again I had to delete and add back the pump relay to ensure it would stay on.

 

Anyone have any ideas?  

 

Hmmmmmm.  Well I am at a loss.  I was hoping it would only happen when you rebooted the relay.

 

Another idea would be two swap the two relays and see if the problem follows the relay or stays with the application.

[steve-elves]

Well, it remains quite a mystery to me.  I've decided that I will purchase a UPS for my ISY.  If it doesn't go off, the problem won't happen (I hope).  

 

Thanks to everyone who took the time to think about this and reply!

 

Steve

[Teken]

Hello Steve,

 

Would you please disable both run at startup programs and repeat the test(S) and let us know the results.

 

I also forgot to ask you to disable the query on start up.

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[larryllix]

Well, it remains quite a mystery to me.  I've decided that I will purchase a UPS for my ISY.  If it doesn't go off, the problem won't happen (I hope).  

 

Thanks to everyone who took the time to think about this and reply!

 

Steve

Please check the status of each leak detector in the admin console device page for each unit.

 

Just because there has never been a leak doesn't mean one didn't last send a Wet signal and one, or more, Wet statuses stuck  on would do exactly what you are complaining of. Surely you must have tested each unit when you installed them.

[steve-elves]

@larryllix

 

As I suspect happens each time the ISY is power cycled, 4 out of 5 leak sensors all come up in an unknown state (i.e. blank).  I have to manually push the reset button on each of them.

 

The whole point of having the leak program was to prevent flooding my house if I'm not home and there is a problem.  The wrinkle here is that I share my well pump with my neighbor, so if there is a power outage they cannot get the water to come back on if I'm not home.  The way it works now is that he phones or texts me, and I log in remotely and remove/replace the pump relay from the ISY configuration.  That's OK as far as it goes, but some day I won't be available and they will be without water as a result.  He's got three young kids, so the situation could be a bit dire.

 

I'll have to give this a lot more thought.  It may be that the whole program thing is a red herring, and the problem actually lies within the relay itself.  I've done a "restore device" from the ISY, and tomorrow morning I'll run my "power off" test again and see if there is any difference.

 

Sigh.

[stusviews]

As has been stated, battery powered devices will not show their status unless there's a change of state or they're queried after placing the device into linking mode. That they don't show their status after an outage in no way affects the functioning of the device.

[larryllix]

@larryllix

 

As I suspect happens each time the ISY is power cycled, 4 out of 5 leak sensors all come up in an unknown state (i.e. blank).  I have to manually push the reset button on each of them.

 

The whole point of having the leak program was to prevent flooding my house if I'm not home and there is a problem.  The wrinkle here is that I share my well pump with my neighbor, so if there is a power outage they cannot get the water to come back on if I'm not home.  The way it works now is that he phones or texts me, and I log in remotely and remove/replace the pump relay from the ISY configuration.  That's OK as far as it goes, but some day I won't be available and they will be without water as a result.  He's got three young kids, so the situation could be a bit dire.

 

I'll have to give this a lot more thought.  It may be that the whole program thing is a red herring, and the problem actually lies within the relay itself.  I've done a "restore device" from the ISY, and tomorrow morning I'll run my "power off" test again and see if there is any difference.

 

Sigh.

I read the problem in your previous post but you still have not stated what the status of each leak detector is showing now, while ISY is running. There should be no blanks.

 I have four leak detectors  and they all show Wet = off and Dry = On because I had to reset each one of them from installation, and after each flood I have detected. (I've had  few)

 

These LDs only send information when a change happens. That is the only way ISY can know the state of them.  ISY remembers the last time wet was detected, or the last time you tapped the button on each of them.  If neither of those have ever happenned then ISY will display a blank because it doesn't know what the LD states are and ISY programs cannot work properly with them.

 

Your power up program detection of wet has to go. ISY is not ready to make that decision right after power up with unknown parameters.

 

As Teken suggested, remove the "run at startup" from each program.

Check to make sure each device status shows Dry=On and Wet=Off. If not, tap the button for that unit and recheck. There should be no blanks.

Test again by power cycling your ISY.

 

Train the neighbour to reset the Leak Detectors after cleanup by tapping the buttons after the LD is dried off completely. This must be done, and remote resetting your programs without resetting the Lek Detectorss may cause further problems with your program logic.

 

I assume you also have heartbeat failure detection programs in place.

[apostolakisl]

The "issue" with no status is not really an issue.  Here is the deal.  Battery devices would burn through their battery very quickly if they were normal Insteon devices listening and responding to all the time to all the other devices in your house (including isy/plm).

 

Battery devices only participate in Insteon commands when they choose.  The choice is written into the firmware on the device and is designed to allow for proper operation and long battery.

 

For the most part, they are transmit only devices.  They will transmit a heartbeat at a time of their choosing, and they will transmit whenever their purpose is met (ie when a water detector gets wet or a motion detector senses motion).

 

ISY does not store device status through a power cycele (which makes sense since the status could easily change while the ISY is off).  When ISY comes back online, it queries all devices for their current status.  However, battery devices are not listening for that query so they do not respond.  The battery devices must be "woken up" either by you manually doing it or by the designed trigger (getting wet).

 

Having ISY show status unknown on the device should not impact your program.

[larryllix]

The "issue" with no status is not really an issue.  Here is the deal.  Battery devices would burn through their battery very quickly if they were normal Insteon devices listening and responding to all the time to all the other devices in your house (including isy/plm).

 

Battery devices only participate in Insteon commands when they choose.  The choice is written into the firmware on the device and is designed to allow for proper operation and long battery.

 

For the most part, they are transmit only devices.  They will transmit a heartbeat at a time of their choosing, and they will transmit whenever their purpose is met (ie when a water detector gets wet or a motion detector senses motion).

 

ISY does not store device status through a power cycele (which makes sense since the status could easily change while the ISY is off).  When ISY comes back online, it queries all devices for their current status.  However, battery devices are not listening for that query so they do not respond.  The battery devices must be "woken up" either by you manually doing it or by the designed trigger (getting wet).

 

Having ISY show status unknown on the device should not impact your program.

My four Leak Detectors all show status and no blanks. Those fields have been filled in somehow, without tapping the button or detecting Wet since my last ISY power cycle. ISY is getting that information sent contrary to how other battery operated devices report.

 

Perhaps status is also reported with each heartbeat?

[steve-elves]

Well, I've done as @Teken suggested and removed "run at startup" from my leak detection programs.  I've also run the "restore device" on the relay module a couple of times.

 

I think the status (or lack thereof) from the leak detector modules is a red herring.  When I went to bed last night, 2 of the 5 leak detectors had status information in them (dry = on, wet = off) because I had reset them manually; the other 3 had blank status for dry, wet, and HB.  When I got up this morning, 2 more showed the same statuses (dry = on, wet = off) all on their own.  I think these guys just report when they feel like it as long as there's no change in their moisture sensors.  I've replaced the batteries in all 5 units about 2 months ago.

 

When I ran my test again (power cycle ISY, pump, and PLM) to simulate a whole-house power failure, sure enough the pump relay came back in the Off state and I could not turn it on from the admin console or the relay itself - I had to delete and reinstall the device.