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Need a good source to learn z-wave technical details


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I’m running an ISY994I that I upgraded with the z-wave daughter card. I WAS running about 65% Insteon and 35% z-Wave.

 

Last Thursday, my PLM added itself to a rather long list of Insteon hardware that has gone south shortly after the warranty expired. I made the decision that I was now done with Insteon and would go all z-wave (and never look back).

 

I’m somewhere around an advanced beginner (maybe a little stronger) regarding z-wave technical operation. Any good sources of technical information?

 

 

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I’m running an ISY994I that I upgraded with the z-wave daughter card. I WAS running about 65% Insteon and 35% z-Wave.

 

Last Thursday, my PLM added itself to a rather long list of Insteon hardware that has gone south shortly after the warranty expired. I made the decision that I was now done with Insteon and would go all z-wave (and never look back).

 

I’m somewhere around an advanced beginner (maybe a little stronger) regarding z-wave technical operation. Any good sources of technical information?

 

 

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People on this forum have been a magnificient help for me, so I encourage you to post questions.

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I'm not a zwave user, however the wikis have good information. Here are some Zwave related entries that will help you with z-wave on the ISY.

 

http://www.universal-devices.com/docs/production/zw.pdf

 

http://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=Main_Page#Z-Wave

 

http://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=Main_Page#Z-Wave_2

 

The manual has a lot on z-wave as well, but has to be searched through

 

FWIW, there is opportunity cost in cutting completely to zwave to be aware of:

  • When you set up insteon, you needed to bridge phases of your electrical system... there is a similar infrastructure project for zwave to create a "full mesh" that covers your property.. plan and implement that early
  • Not all switches support local status. If you want the local operation of the switch reported to the ISY, you need switches that have that feature
  • The same applies to double-tap -  you don't want to replace switches, and then be dissatisfied with them and have to replace them again.
  • There is no substitute, that I'm aware of, for the Insteon Keypad. The functionality of the keypad is a key part of my power line setup

I know replacing PLMs is annoying, and I've been lucky that I've only lost one 1 of them in 6 years. The opportunity cost of z-wave is too high for me, and I keep a spare PLM in a box, ready to go.

 

Not trying to talk you out of it, but I would consider and plan the journey

 

Paul

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I hate to say it but as fast as I tried to expand my Insteon system, devices kept dyeing. Nothing fancy just On/OFF Toggles and a few hidden sensors. Then the PLM (less than a year old). I gave up and switched to Z Wave. Jasco Toggles, Aeotec hidden sensors and window/door sensors. The only thing with Z Wave is compatibility, especially Gen 5. Not all the functionality may be supported. No problems since I switched. I don't think it is too much to ask that a device that you rely on functions 100% of the time with few hard failures.

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I don't think it is too much to ask that a device that you rely on functions 100% of the time with few hard failures.

 

If a device is to function 100% of the time, then there would be no hardware failures. BTW, have you been using Z-wave devices for as long as your failed Insteon devices?

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Ive been using Insteon for many years and zwave for a few years. Ive never really had a high failure rate for either one. I have taken some basic measures in my homes which may have helped with longevity. 

 

I can say from my experiences, many times people will think a device is bad when it isnt (not saying that's your case). Sometimes it is environmental and devices get blamed.

 

I have both Insteon and Zwave devices. Insteon switches (1 zwave switch), zwave sensors and zwave outlets (some insteon outlets as well)IMO I like Insteon much better than Zwave. The way insteon devices talk to one another has yet to be matched by zwave devices. Dont get me wrong, I do love the devices I do use, I've just found the way Insteon works with each other to be much better. 

 

I havent had PLM issues like yourself (or device failures in general) but I do feel like a new PLM every few years is not a big deal. I spend more going out to dinner or hanging out with friends in 1 night than the cost of a PLM. When I take into consideration the cost of new devices, its still cheaper to stick with insteon than to simply switch to the same quality version of zwave devices.

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I almost never had an X10 device fail. But the features and flexibility of Insteon was too good to pass up. Coupled with the ISY, there's little I can't accomplish. HA is an expensive hobby, there will be failures. For me, the added benefits are worth the cost and as a DIYer, it's fun as well. Well, maybe not the cost, but everything else about HA is.

 

Z-Wave will have more features available in v.5+, but I don't want to wait. The WAF keeps me with v.4+

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If a device is to function 100% of the time, then there would be no hardware failures. BTW, have you been using Z-wave devices for as long as your failed Insteon devices?

Started building the Insteon system two years ago with ISY.  About 10 On/Off toggles and 5 other sensors.  As fast as I was adding to it devices failed.  Sometimes communications, bad solder joints in the toggles, had one toggle with a plastic part break, two toggles the microcontroller just failed then the PLM failed.  What really bothered me was the random communication issues on the same house circuit on a dual band system.  This was shades of my X10.  All I have left insteon is an 8button keypad and one toggle on/off.  I have been using Z Wave for about 4 months now error free.  I do keep track of device errors by variables within the ISY.   It is my gut feel that the PLM does not handle errors and communication interfearance well and sometimes gets "lost" if you will.  The PLM just does not have the same "robustness" as the ISY. 

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If a device is to function 100% of the time, then there would be no hardware failures. BTW, have you been using Z-wave devices for as long as your failed Insteon devices?

To be fair, I have not been using the z-wave devices for that long. On the other hand, if I need to add or replace a switch or plug, I can just drive to Home Depot (or other places) and pick one up for 25% less that the Insteon device that performs the same function.

 

That was almost a bigger issue than the failure. If I needed to replace something, it was a minimum of 2-days if I could get it from Amazon, or longer (and more expensive) if I needed to order it from someplace else.

 

In about 4 years, I lost:

An Insteon Hub (replaced by a very reliable ISY)

3 ApplianceLinc’s

1 Motion detector

3 Insteon Cameras

2 standard wired dimmer switches; high wattage version of the same

1 plug in dimmer

3 Insteon 7w LED bulbs (controller errors, not burned out)

And lastly, my PLM.

 

 

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Started building the Insteon system two years ago with ISY. About 10 On/Off toggles and 5 other sensors. As fast as I was adding to it devices failed. Sometimes communications, bad solder joints in the toggles, had one toggle with a plastic part break, two toggles the microcontroller just failed then the PLM failed. What really bothered me was the random communication issues on the same house circuit on a dual band system. This was shades of my X10. All I have left insteon is an 8button keypad and one toggle on/off. I have been using Z Wave for about 4 months now error free. I do keep track of device errors by variables within the ISY. It is my gut feel that the PLM does not handle errors and communication interfearance well and sometimes gets "lost" if you will. The PLM just does not have the same "robustness" as the ISY.

I will probably replace the PLM, but mostly to get the remote functionality again. There are a few unique products in the Insteon product line that I may use, but I doubt that I will ever fully trust the operation of my house on it going forward.

 

 

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  • When you set up insteon, you needed to bridge phases of your electrical system... there is a similar infrastructure project for zwave to create a "full mesh" that covers your property.. plan and implement that early

Paul

Thanks for the sources. Setting up the mesh is the area that I think I need to get a handle on first.

 

 

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  • 1 month later...

Z-wave products vary too much for there to be a general guide. But, here's a start.

 

Oddly enough.. this was a fantastic find for me. 

 

I last researched Z-Wave in detail about 4 years ago (late 2012).  At that time it was still proprietary and under wraps so I discarded any notion of using it.

 

I chose Insteon, bought a developers kit, learned their protocol and did my thing.  Then shortly thereafter Insteon changed its strategy and the developer vine died.  I had the basics I needed so I abandoned all further work in home automation in favor of robotics development (lots of ZigBee and bluetooth).  

 

When my bed ridden mother moved into my house, my requirements for home automation exploded again.  So I did my research and settled on ISY as my primary "Appliance / server" principally on its combined support for both Insteon and Z-Wave .   I am not a fan of "Internet Hubs".  I am not a fan of anything Apple, I may use an iPhone but I refuse to commit major infrastructure to Apple.  

 

Insteon, my opinion

Is dated yet robust and reliable.

  • The combination of power line and RF communications is powerful.  In many cases integrated power line & RF communication is uniquely suited to a use case.  There are places where power line (meaning hard wired)  communication is the only "reasonable" solution in terms of cost.
  • The mesh design (communication protocol) is excellent especially since it is integrated across RF and PL.
  • Bottom line as a technology I find little fault with Insteon.

Insteon my concerns,

  • Insteon published their protocol device definitions etc. but they have not maintained the documents.  Insteon has not been consistent in providing design information and many new devices are not documented.
  • Insteon seems to have lost it's way after the introduction of the Hub strategy.  They made a huge investment around a hub strategy back in 2012-14 (Insteon in Best Buy, Target, Walmart etc.)  They had a lot of returns and have been pulled from those marketing channels.
  • There has been very little innovation in responders over the past few years (Sensors etc.)
  • Insteon "the company" was sold in 2017 and seems to be refocusing on an Apple HomeKit strategy (buy out play?)  This is not good for traditional Insteon users,  I expect HomeKit will aggressively pursue  both "lock in" and exclusionary tactics through a "HomeKit" certification process.

 

Summary:  I do not expect a lot of future innovation from Insteon using the pre-2017 business model.   There may be increased movement towards proprietary and HomeKit devices however.  I am concerned that support for the installed base of devices may move towards a harvesting strategy where prices are increased for both "replacement parts" and those parts needed for the incremental expansion of installed systems. 

 

Public domain Z-Wave

 

Here we need to look at the recent past and the future.

  • Many of the problematic parts of the z-wave protocol have been depreciated (meaning don't use this in the future unless you really have to) so future devices are more likely to integrate smoothly.
  • Innovation in the Z-Wave space is exploding.  There a many different vendors in this public domain space.  Aeon Labs is a good example.  In my opinion lots of vendors is a very good thing for both innovation and price.
  • There is also substitute for Power Line communication called Z-Wave over IP.  This has the potential for many different RF wave guides.  For example electrical wiring or (cat 5, 6) or optical or any radio frequency or infrared or even high frequency sound.  For example, there are Ethernet over powerline routers now. Additionally  Z-Wave over IP is at the center of the IoT push http://zwavepublic.com/developer
  • In my opinion, it is simple a matter of time before all Insteon functional types (KeypadLinc) that not protected by patent are available in Z-Wave  

Bottom line

Insteon owns the past but has stumbled, at least so far, in embracing the future.  Insteon is still study and very capable just like like a great pair of old shoes.  I shall continue to use them until they are cost prohibitive.

As a protocol, Open Z-Wave Plus owns the future.  It remains to be seen what company, if any, dominates this space.

 

I chose Universal Devices ISY944i ZW Pro as my bridge between the past and the future.  I really hope there is a plan for ISY to support Z-Wave Gen 5 and Z-Wave Plus.  Particularly the infield upgrade capability.  Imagine the ISY updating the firmware on your favorite devices at the touch of a button "ISY go upgrade all switches of type B now!"?

 

In answer to the OP's question I would also add the Aeon Labs site to the list, they provide a lot of information on thier devices.  https://aeotec.com/support This provides a good point of reference when reading the other materials identified in this post.

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Oddly enough.. this was a fantastic find for me. 

 

I last researched Z-Wave in detail about 4 years ago (late 2012).  At that time it was still proprietary and under wraps so I discarded any notion of using it.

 

I chose Insteon, bought a developers kit, learned their protocol and did my thing.  Then shortly thereafter Insteon changed its strategy and the developer vine died.  I had the basics I needed so I abandoned all further work in home automation in favor of robotics development (lots of ZigBee and bluetooth).  

 

When my bed ridden mother moved into my house, my requirements for home automation exploded again.  So I did my research and settled on ISY as my primary "Appliance / server" principally on its combined support for both Insteon and Z-Wave .   I am not a fan of "Internet Hubs".  I am not a fan of anything Apple, I may use an iPhone but I refuse to commit major infrastructure to Apple.  

 

Insteon, my opinion

Is dated yet robust and reliable.

  • The combination of power line and RF communications is powerful.  In many cases integrated power line & RF communication is uniquely suited to a use case.  There are places where power line (meaning hard wired)  communication is the only "reasonable" solution in terms of cost.
  • The mesh design (communication protocol) is excellent especially since it is integrated across RF and PL.
  • Bottom line as a technology I find little fault with Insteon.

Insteon my concerns,

  • Insteon published their protocol device definitions etc. but they have not maintained the documents.  Insteon has not been consistent in providing design information and many new devices are not documented.
  • Insteon seems to have lost it's way after the introduction of the Hub strategy.  They made a huge investment around a hub strategy back in 2012-14 (Insteon in Best Buy, Target, Walmart etc.)  They had a lot of returns and have been pulled from those marketing channels.
  • There has been very little innovation in responders over the past few years (Sensors etc.)
  • Insteon "the company" was sold in 2017 and seems to be refocusing on an Apple HomeKit strategy (buy out play?)  This is not good for traditional Insteon users,  I expect HomeKit will aggressively pursue  both "lock in" and exclusionary tactics through a "HomeKit" certification process.

 

Summary:  I do not expect a lot of future innovation from Insteon using the pre-2017 business model.   There may be increased movement towards proprietary and HomeKit devices however.  I am concerned that support for the installed base of devices may move towards a harvesting strategy where prices are increased for both "replacement parts" and those parts needed for the incremental expansion of installed systems. 

 

Public domain Z-Wave

 

Here we need to look at the recent past and the future.

  • Many of the problematic parts of the z-wave protocol have been depreciated (meaning don't use this in the future unless you really have to) so future devices are more likely to integrate smoothly.
  • Innovation in the Z-Wave space is exploding.  There a many different vendors in this public domain space.  Aeon Labs is a good example.  In my opinion lots of vendors is a very good thing for both innovation and price.
  • There is also substitute for Power Line communication called Z-Wave over IP.  This has the potential for many different RF wave guides.  For example electrical wiring or (cat 5, 6) or optical or any radio frequency or infrared or even high frequency sound.  For example, there are Ethernet over powerline routers now. Additionally  Z-Wave over IP is at the center of the IoT push http://zwavepublic.com/developer
  • In my opinion, it is simple a matter of time before all Insteon functional types (KeypadLinc) that not protected by patent are available in Z-Wave  

Bottom line

Insteon owns the past but has stumbled, at least so far, in embracing the future.  Insteon is still study and very capable just like like a great pair of old shoes.  I shall continue to use them until they are cost prohibitive.

As a protocol, Open Z-Wave Plus owns the future.  It remains to be seen what company, if any, dominates this space.

 

I chose Universal Devices ISY944i ZW Pro as my bridge between the past and the future.  I really hope there is a plan for ISY to support Z-Wave Gen 5 and Z-Wave Plus.  Particularly the infield upgrade capability.  Imagine the ISY updating the firmware on your favorite devices at the touch of a button "ISY go upgrade all switches of type B now!"?

 

In answer to the OP's question I would also add the Aeon Labs site to the list, they provide a lot of information on thier devices.  https://aeotec.com/support This provides a good point of reference when reading the other materials identified in this post.

Many thanks for this excellent expose. It comforts me in my choice to have gone Zwave all the way.

I have some 60 Zwave devices and because of the mesh technology I have never had any communication issues. That is why the double technology of Insteon (Power and RF) is a non-issue for me.

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Oddly enough.. this was a fantastic find for me. 

 

I last researched Z-Wave in detail about 4 years ago (late 2012).  At that time it was still proprietary and under wraps so I discarded any notion of using it.

 

I chose Insteon, bought a developers kit, learned their protocol and did my thing.  Then shortly thereafter Insteon changed its strategy and the developer vine died.  I had the basics I needed so I abandoned all further work in home automation in favor of robotics development (lots of ZigBee and bluetooth).  

 

When my bed ridden mother moved into my house, my requirements for home automation exploded again.  So I did my research and settled on ISY as my primary "Appliance / server" principally on its combined support for both Insteon and Z-Wave .   I am not a fan of "Internet Hubs".  I am not a fan of anything Apple, I may use an iPhone but I refuse to commit major infrastructure to Apple.  

 

Insteon, my opinion

Is dated yet robust and reliable.

  • The combination of power line and RF communications is powerful.  In many cases integrated power line & RF communication is uniquely suited to a use case.  There are places where power line (meaning hard wired)  communication is the only "reasonable" solution in terms of cost.
  • The mesh design (communication protocol) is excellent especially since it is integrated across RF and PL.
  • Bottom line as a technology I find little fault with Insteon.

Insteon my concerns,

  • Insteon published their protocol device definitions etc. but they have not maintained the documents.  Insteon has not been consistent in providing design information and many new devices are not documented.
  • Insteon seems to have lost it's way after the introduction of the Hub strategy.  They made a huge investment around a hub strategy back in 2012-14 (Insteon in Best Buy, Target, Walmart etc.)  They had a lot of returns and have been pulled from those marketing channels.
  • There has been very little innovation in responders over the past few years (Sensors etc.)
  • Insteon "the company" was sold in 2017 and seems to be refocusing on an Apple HomeKit strategy (buy out play?)  This is not good for traditional Insteon users,  I expect HomeKit will aggressively pursue  both "lock in" and exclusionary tactics through a "HomeKit" certification process.

 

Summary:  I do not expect a lot of future innovation from Insteon using the pre-2017 business model.   There may be increased movement towards proprietary and HomeKit devices however.  I am concerned that support for the installed base of devices may move towards a harvesting strategy where prices are increased for both "replacement parts" and those parts needed for the incremental expansion of installed systems. 

 

Public domain Z-Wave

 

Here we need to look at the recent past and the future.

  • Many of the problematic parts of the z-wave protocol have been depreciated (meaning don't use this in the future unless you really have to) so future devices are more likely to integrate smoothly.
  • Innovation in the Z-Wave space is exploding.  There a many different vendors in this public domain space.  Aeon Labs is a good example.  In my opinion lots of vendors is a very good thing for both innovation and price.
  • There is also substitute for Power Line communication called Z-Wave over IP.  This has the potential for many different RF wave guides.  For example electrical wiring or (cat 5, 6) or optical or any radio frequency or infrared or even high frequency sound.  For example, there are Ethernet over powerline routers now. Additionally  Z-Wave over IP is at the center of the IoT push http://zwavepublic.com/developer
  • In my opinion, it is simple a matter of time before all Insteon functional types (KeypadLinc) that not protected by patent are available in Z-Wave  

Bottom line

Insteon owns the past but has stumbled, at least so far, in embracing the future.  Insteon is still study and very capable just like like a great pair of old shoes.  I shall continue to use them until they are cost prohibitive.

As a protocol, Open Z-Wave Plus owns the future.  It remains to be seen what company, if any, dominates this space.

 

I chose Universal Devices ISY944i ZW Pro as my bridge between the past and the future.  I really hope there is a plan for ISY to support Z-Wave Gen 5 and Z-Wave Plus.  Particularly the infield upgrade capability.  Imagine the ISY updating the firmware on your favorite devices at the touch of a button "ISY go upgrade all switches of type B now!"?

 

In answer to the OP's question I would also add the Aeon Labs site to the list, they provide a lot of information on thier devices.  https://aeotec.com/support This provides a good point of reference when reading the other materials identified in this post.

 

Thanks very much for your post.  I enjoyed reading it, as well as all the other UDI posts, and share a lot of your views.  I came up with X10 and moved to Insteon.  I selected it because of the availability of varied device types. My last change, to Z-Wave, I believe  gives me a more reliable system; being without an additional single point failure (PLM) and random comm problems. The ISY allowed me flawless transition from Insteon to ZWave without ever "missing a beat".

 

I do like the Aeon Labs devices.  They are built a bit better and the operation of the device matches the technical documentation.  I believe ZWave Plus has allowed for device functionality expansion which puts it on par or better than some of the more elaborate Insteon/Smarthome Devices, I.E. multi inputs and outputs, etc.  Generation 5 and ZWave Plus support is a must for the ISY to move into "today's" control environment.  I am anxiously awaiting this.

 

As for detail documentation; protocol, compatibility, operation, etc,  I have had to "mine" most everything.  Even after exhaustive research I have sadly selected devices that didn't match the documentation or advertised functionality.  Some just do not work well with the hub or they require a lot of tweaking to make them work.  This becomes costly and frustrating, especially to the new user on a budget.

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Thanks very much for your post.  I enjoyed reading it, as well as all the other UDI posts, and share a lot of your views.  I came up with X10 and moved to Insteon.  I selected it because of the availability of varied device types. My last change, to Z-Wave, I believe  gives me a more reliable system; being without an additional single point failure (PLM) and random comm problems. The ISY allowed me flawless transition from Insteon to ZWave without ever "missing a beat".

 

I do like the Aeon Labs devices.  They are built a bit better and the operation of the device matches the technical documentation.  I believe ZWave Plus has allowed for device functionality expansion which puts it on par or better than some of the more elaborate Insteon/Smarthome Devices, I.E. multi inputs and outputs, etc.  Generation 5 and ZWave Plus support is a must for the ISY to move into "today's" control environment.  I am anxiously awaiting this.

 

As for detail documentation; protocol, compatibility, operation, etc,  I have had to "mine" most everything.  Even after exhaustive research I have sadly selected devices that didn't match the documentation or advertised functionality.  Some just do not work well with the hub or they require a lot of tweaking to make them work.  This becomes costly and frustrating, especially to the new user on a budget.

"...............Generation 5 and ZWave Plus support is a must for the ISY ................" = ISY 6.0.X  ?

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To be fair, I have not been using the z-wave devices for that long. On the other hand, if I need to add or replace a switch or plug, I can just drive to Home Depot (or other places) and pick one up for 25% less that the Insteon device that performs the same function.

 

That was almost a bigger issue than the failure. If I needed to replace something, it was a minimum of 2-days if I could get it from Amazon, or longer (and more expensive) if I needed to order it from someplace else.

 

In about 4 years, I lost:

An Insteon Hub (replaced by a very reliable ISY)

3 ApplianceLinc’s

1 Motion detector

3 Insteon Cameras

2 standard wired dimmer switches; high wattage version of the same

1 plug in dimmer

3 Insteon 7w LED bulbs (controller errors, not burned out)

And lastly, my PLM.

 

 

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Wow. That's a lot. I'm in my 4th year of all insteon (formally x10) with about 25 total devices. Just lost my first PLM, but had a spare, ready to go. I've never lost another insteon device. I have had an occasional comm issue, but nothing significant. Almost 100% of my comm issues we're powerline only switches (used ones I bought cheap).

 

One thing I did early on was to install a whole house surge protector in the CB panel (Eaton for $100) I have 2-3 black/brown outs a year and hundreds of nearby lightning strikes a year. So I really can't imagine what's causing that many failures. Maybe I'm overdue.

 

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Wow. That's a lot. I'm in my 4th year of all insteon (formally x10) with about 25 total devices. Just lost my first PLM, but had a spare, ready to go. I've never lost another insteon device. I have had an occasional comm issue, but nothing significant. Almost 100% of my comm issues we're powerline only switches (used ones I bought cheap).

 

One thing I did early on was to install a whole house surge protector in the CB panel (Eaton for $100) I have 2-3 black/brown outs a year and hundreds of nearby lightning strikes a year. So I really can't imagine what's causing that many failures. Maybe I'm overdue.

 

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Same here with the Eaton whole house surge suppressor. It's hard to tell if it actually does anything but one can hope.

 

I can't speak to Insteon as I went from X10 to Zwave. No problems yet with ZWave except, as someone above noted, that some devices don't like others.

 

I have 3 of the Fibaro RGBW controllers and have been really impressed. I'm on ISY 5.0.11b and the web interface is a bit clunky but they work. They also worked well with ST. While I hate the look of that Fibaro eyeball motion sensor and I think they are a bit proprietary inside their ecosystem, so far what I have works great.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Coming late to this thread, if you’re really looking for a good technical reference, about the only thing around is “Z-Wave Basics” by Dr. Christian Paetz. It’s a few years old, and doesn’t cover newer Z-Wave technologies, but as the title suggests it’s a good overview of the foundations of the technology. It occurs to me that I should see if there’s an updated edition available.

 

Update: Just checked Amazon, and Dr. Paetz does indeed have a newer book out, “Z-Wave Essentialsl”. I’ve just ordered it.

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