Advice on Filters and Bridging

[ScottAvery]

After a year of other things on the Honey-Do list I finally started installing automation equipment at my new house.  It is looking like I may need some extensive filtering of noisy circuits and bridging of multiple panels.  There are two full size panels, each appearing to get a direct feed from the utility rather than one being a subpanel of the other.  There are a lot of 12v lighting circuits in the house that I expect may be noisy, some already on Leviton dimmers, but most just on/off switched.

 

As a relevant but long-winded aside, I will mention that I had a circuit I could not find in the two electrical panels.  I was specifically looking to take an outlet out that was in a standard switch location, which it appears was added to power a telephone base on a pedestal.  I wanted to put a switch into it to control multiple lamplincs in the room.  I had gone through each circuit multiple times, running up the stairs looking for what would turn the lamp off I had plugged into it.  On the second or third session of searching for I finally ran a 100ft extension cord down to the electric panel so I could see the what would turn off the circuit.  It seemed I could cut the search in half by testing the main on one panel, which I did on panel 2, but the light was still on, so I turned it back on and focused on Panel 1.  I tested every circuit in Panel 1 and it still didn't turn off - turned off main on 1 and still not off...  I then spent an hour going through crawlspaces and utility closets to find the hidden panel that must be there with no luck.  Finally put on leather gloves and disconnected the wiring, neutral first, from the outlet.  Yes indeed, both line wires were hot.  rewired the outlet with just one of the circuits and found it on breaker 15 in panel 2.  Rewired to the other circuit and found it on breaker 17 in panel 1.  This seems bad to me, but somehow the house hadn't burned to the ground.  I am guessing the panels must have the A/B legs reversed since 15 and 17 are adjacent.  I now fear what I will find as I proceed to other circuits.  The connection in that box had not been made by an electrician and was not inspected, because the ground was done incorrectly.  I can also tell someone botched a 3-way and mixed up wiring at one end, based on how it functions, but I am wondering if I will have to open every !*)&$*()& box to see what is in there.  How may neutrals from different circuits will I find bound together?  Blah!  There are hundreds of boxes in the house.

 

Back to business:

 

Are there any cheaper alternatives for XPNR filters to put in-line with the 12v transformers if they are problematic?  They are going for $25 plus each.

 

How could I tell if those transformers are dimmable?

 

How does an XPNR placed on the load side not filter an entire circuit (even beyond the load) once the switch is closed?

 

How do I wire the bridge devices with two panels?  Can they share one?  Given that I had two circuits on two different panels wired together for years, what would be the difference, especially on dedicated breakers?

 

I understand how two legs on one panel are getting bridged, but is there any need to bridge between the panels themselves?  Do each panel have the same 2 legs or is there something else going on?  Split single phase splits only once?

 

 

[paulbates]

I have a signal bridge on my single panel split into multiple legs. I can't offer advice on your electrical system other than I was able to measure my insteon hops and signal before and after installing the signal linc, and it made a substantial difference (see attached .. before and after throwing the breakers to turn on the signal bridge)

 

I deal with noise problems on an "as-needed" basis. I use the XPNRs on some of my low voltage lighting. I installed and purchased electronic transformers for low voltage lights and they've worked with inlinelincs since 2007. I did not put XPNRs in until it was a proven need. I have 7 transfomers of 4 different types. (different load).  5 of them work perfectly, 2 had issues, I wired an XPNR across those 2 only. That solved it.

 

And for the XPNRs, you install them across the hot and neutral right that the transformer. It filters outside the X10 powerline signal frequency, which is extremely close to X10. I wouldn't expect any downstream problems

 

Paul 

Insteon Bridge.pdf

[lilyoyo1]

I use the Insteon 2406h in my panels to help block noise on the powerline (it bridges too but that part isn't needed). In my equipment room, I use the 1626-10 filter on nearby equipment that could potentially interfere with signals.

 

To be honest, I probably don't need 1626 but since I already had them, I figured I might as well use them.

[stusviews]

IMO, a known problem solver is worth not spending the time to look for a less costly, mostly unproven ( a few found success) solution. How have you determined that you even need an XPNR?

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What do you mean, "I am guessing the panels must have the A/B legs reversed since 15 and 17 are adjacent.". First A & B are arbitrary. That the odd numbered breakers on one panel can be the even number breakers (or not) on the other panel is meaningless as far as the code and balances anticipated loads is accomplished.

 

Vertically adjacent full-height breakers are on opposite legs of the split, single-phase electric supply. There's no way to defeat that.

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I'm also confused by, "Yes indeed, both line wires were hot.  rewired the outlet with just one of the circuits and found it on breaker 15 in panel 2.  Rewired to the other circuit and found it on breaker 17 in panel 1."

 

Can you provide more detail. Do you mean one outlet (duplex receptacle)  was wired to two breakers, one in each panel?

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Any transformer that's dimmable will be labelled as such. If the transformer doesn't specifically indicate that it's dimmable, the it's not dimmable.

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You can use one neutral wire for each two line wires that are on opposite legs of the split, single-phase electric supply.

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If the second panel is fed from the first, than one coupler in the first panel is adequate, but it's OK to install a coupler in both panels either way.

[G W]

That's really weird that the fed two circuits from the same leg on two different pannels. I could see doing that if each circuit was for only one of the sockets of the dual receptacle. And maybe that's how it was originally weird and someone later replaced the receptacle and didn't cut the bridge.

 

I've wired receptacles with the top being on one leg and the bottom being on the other. That way I have two 20 Amp plugs on the same receptacle.

 

It's good you found that and it's lucky both circuits were on the same leg.

[ScottAvery]

That's really weird that the fed two circuits from the same leg on two different pannels. I could see doing that if each circuit was for only one of the sockets of the dual receptacle. And maybe that's how it was originally weird and someone later replaced the receptacle and didn't cut the bridge.

 

I've wired receptacles with the top being on one leg and the bottom being on the other. That way I have two 20 Amp plugs on the same receptacle.

 

It's good you found that and it's lucky both circuits were on the same leg.

Your use of two circuits to the same outlet makes sense, but in this case my guess is that there was originally a switch here with a single 14-2 connection to a switched outlet in the room for a lamp.  The second circuit probably goes to an outlet in the next room on the other panel and was added later as it is different wire type and the ground of the second circuit had been wrapped around the ground of the other without any crimp ring or wire nut.  There could have been a double pole switch during a previous renovation. 

 

In any case, I don't know exactly how it wasn't a problem.

[ScottAvery]

IMO, a known problem solver is worth not spending the time to look for a less costly, mostly unproven ( a few found success) solution. How have you determined that you even need an XPNR?

The XPNR seems expensive for what it is.  I don't know for sure I will need any, but 12v MR16 bulb fixtures have been bashed on the forum before.  Just trying to get ahead of it as there are many circuits of this type in the house.

 

I'm also confused by, "Yes indeed, both line wires were hot.  rewired the outlet with just one of the circuits and found it on breaker 15 in panel 2.  Rewired to the other circuit and found it on breaker 17 in panel 1."

 

Can you provide more detail. Do you mean one outlet (duplex receptacle)  was wired to two breakers, one in each panel?

Yes, I mean the receptacle was wired to two breakers in two different panels simultaneously. The bridge between outlets had not been broken out so both circuits were fully connected, outlets in one room to lights in another.  It was impossible to find without disconnecting and testing the wires independently.  Technically the misconnection could be anywhere on those circuits but it makes sense that it would have occurred at this point.  I disconnected an outlet in the other room to see where the chain broke and it further corroborated that assumption.  In any case, with the newer wires capped off the circuits can be shut off that the breaker independently now.

 

What do you mean, "I am guessing the panels must have the A/B legs reversed since 15 and 17 are adjacent.". First A & B are arbitrary. That the odd numbered breakers on one panel can be the even number breakers (or not) on the other panel is meaningless as far as the code and balances anticipated loads is accomplished.

 

Vertically adjacent full-height breakers are on opposite legs of the split, single-phase electric supply. There's no way to defeat that.

I assumed if they were opposite legs bound together the breakers would have tripped or equipment would have failed.  Just an uninformed observation, and I was seeking confirmation.  If I were to short the legs of a 220 circuit, what would happen?  Same situation isn't it?

 

 

Any transformer that's dimmable will be labelled as such. If the transformer doesn't specifically indicate that it's dimmable, the it's not dimmable.

I have no idea where the transformers are.  I had assumed wired to the first fixture in the circuit, and if so, there is no way to check.  There a are a couple on dimmers already, but I don't know if they are compatible with Insteon dimmers. Triac vs. what?  When I pull the Leviton dimmers I can try to research.

 

You can use one neutral wire for each two line wires that are on opposite legs of the split, single-phase electric supply.

I've seen this for 15A circuits that run a single 12-3 from the breaker to the first junction where they split to 14-2s.  The shared neutral had to be able to carry the full load of both circuits.  I only mentioned a concern about neutrals because in my previous house I found a box with two circuits to two switches but the neutrals had been crossed over on the way to the fixtures.  There are several 4 and 5 gang boxes with 2 or 3 circuits in this house, and I now fear what I will find.

 

If the second panel is fed from the first, than one coupler in the first panel is adequate, but it's OK to install a coupler in both panels either way.

They appear to be fed independently.  Was asking how to couple between them if they are separate all the way to the meter.  (though, again, they had been tied together on that outlet.)

[IndyMike]

The XPNR seems expensive for what it is.  I don't know for sure I will need any, but 12v MR16 bulb fixtures have been bashed on the forum before.  Just trying to get ahead of it as there are many circuits of this type in the house.

 

 

 

 

I agree that the XPNR seems expensive, but then most of the pre-packaged filters are expensive.  What I dislike about the XPNR is that it is a 2-wire filter that does nothing to isolate a signal absorber (like a T filter would - XPF or filterlinc). The filter itself will absorb X10/Insteon signals.  In my mind, it should only be used on the load side of a dimmer (not a relay unit) or in conjunction with a XPF/Filterlinc.

 

I did order one of these to test.  I'll check the frequency response to determine its characteristics over the 200 Khz range.  I suspect this is nothing more than a L-C tuned notch filter - similar to the 2406 coupler.

 

I have no idea where the transformers are.  I had assumed wired to the first fixture in the circuit, and if so, there is no way to check.  There a are a couple on dimmers already, but I don't know if they are compatible with Insteon dimmers. Triac vs. what?  When I pull the Leviton dimmers I can try to research.

 

 

Have a look at your current installed dimmers for make/model.  There are a couple of Lutron dimmers that are trailing edge dimmers - these are very high end devices.  Pretty much everything else is a leading edge triac dimmer and should be compatible with Insteon.

 

They appear to be fed independently.  Was asking how to couple between them if they are separate all the way to the meter.  (though, again, they had been tied together on that outlet.)

 

If you have a single meter your panels should be wired in parallel.  A single 2406 coupler should therefor suffice.  I agree with Paul that hardwired couplers are wonderful devices.  Always online, unaffected by noise.  They just work.

[stusviews]

Two circuits feed the same duplex receptacle is certainly a code violation. That they're from different panel is especially a violation. That it didn't destroy the bridge between the outlets nor melt any wires not just indicates, but gualantees that they were on the same leg of the split, single-phase electric supply.

 

If you shorted 220VAC, then would not only pop the breaker, you'd see a light show at the point of contact.

 

Yes, it's common the run a 3-wire cable from each of two circuits/breaker with one neutral and then split them. Because it;s AC, the current in each line wire is 180º out-of-phase with the current in the other line wire (hence the term phase). If the line wires are perfectly balanced (each load wire carries the exact same current) as the are in 220/240VAC appliance, then there is no current at all in the neutral wire. That's why 220/240VAC devices (whole house ACs, electric water heaters, dryers, etc.) don't need a neutral wire.

 

In other cases, the neutral wire carries only the imbalance which can never exceed to load on one line.

[stusviews]

Panels throughout the same POCO are all in parallel. The only concern as far as the HA powerline signal is concerned is where the split occurs.  If it's after a single meter as IndyMike mentioned, then it's likely that only one wire-in phase couple is needed.

 

IMO, if the one meter supplies each panel separately, then I install a coupler in each panel. If the single meter supplies one panel and that one panel feeds a second panel (sub-panel), then one coupler in the main panel is adequate.

[ScottAvery]

I agree that the XPNR seems expensive, but then most of the pre-packaged filters are expensive.  What I dislike about the XPNR is that it is a 2-wire filter that does nothing to isolate a signal absorber (like a T filter would - XPF or filterlinc). The filter itself will absorb X10/Insteon signals.  In my mind, it should only be used on the load side of a dimmer (not a relay unit) or in conjunction with a XPF/Filterlinc.

 

I did order one of these to test.  I'll check the frequency response to determine its characteristics over the 200 Khz range.  I suspect this is nothing more than a L-C tuned notch filter - similar to the 2406 coupler.

 

If it absorbs noise/signal on the Insteon/X10 frequency, it would be the opposite of the 2406, no?  And thanks for corroborating my thoughts on putting it on a relay.  Will have to sort out dimmer issue first.

[paulbates]

It does not absorb / block x10, but the inverse, it absorbs and blocks outside of x10. 

 

http://www.authinx.com/manuals/x10/xpnr.pdf

 

Paul

[ScottAvery]

It does not absorb / block x10, but the inverse, it absorbs and blocks outside of x10. 

 

http://www.authinx.com/manuals/x10/xpnr.pdf

 

Paul

Thanks for the correction.

 

and I just saw the 2406h is only $10 at smarthome, and i made my annual "free shipping" ($199+) order yesterday.  paid $20 for one a couple weeks ago, a second at $10 would have been great.

[paulbates]

Thanks for the correction.

 

and I just saw the 2406h is only $10 at smarthome, and i made my annual "free shipping" ($199+) order yesterday.  paid $20 for one a couple weeks ago, a second at $10 would have been great.

 

My first time using the XPNRs was on PCM motors for furnaces I have since replaced. One of those motors would kill a PLM in about a week, after a couple of episodes of that, tried one of these. End of problem.

 

When 2 of my electronic low voltage lighting transformers had intermittent problems, I tried these out (and only these despite what the pdf says). That ended the problem.

 

So yes, $20 a piece is not cheap, but it was only applied where needed, its very easy to install....and its been 6 years of not worrying about it any more, and not "why aren't the lights not going off"

 

For the 2406h insteon coupler, attached is a before and after view of throwing the breakers (homeseer - msandler plugin.). Best $10 and hour time you can spend IMO

 

 

 

Paul

Insteon Bridge.pdf

[ScottAvery]

Best $10 and hour time you can spend IMO

 

Well, I will probably also have to buy a breaker, possibly a costly tandem if I don't have room for it.

[paulbates]

Well, I will probably also have to buy a breaker, possibly a costly tandem if I don't have room for it.

Ugh. Yes I was counting down on my open breakers, only a few left.

 

I bought 2 breakers, but I also used them to power an outlet box added to a panel punchout... the PLM is plugged in right there by the signalinc and panel. It was a dual gang box, signalinc on one side, outlet on the other

 

Paul

[LFMc]

Is there any reasonably priced software (or free) that will do something similar to what Paul was doing with his HomeSeer system?  I.E. just do a statistical test and report on communications within the Insteon network?  

[paulbates]

Not that I'm aware of. I was able to debug my insteon network a number of years ago on homeseer... Since migrating to the ISY I have shut Homeseer down.

 

Something similar was requested for the ISY and is on the list

 

Paul

[LFMc]

Not that I'm aware of. I was able to debug my insteon network a number of years ago on homeseer... Since migrating to the ISY I have shut Homeseer down.

 

Something similar was requested for the ISY and is on the list

 

Paul

You would think that a dump of the ISY event viewer using level 3 option to a spread sheet (with a bunch of Excel programming) could produce something similar. Maybe using a bunch of "query all" commands to generate the activity.  I'm surprised no one has attempted it yet. 

 

I see the obvious value of your HomeSeer PDF that shows the before and after comm test. Maybe you can rent out the HomeSeer for testing... 

[ScottAvery]

Ugh. Yes I was counting down on my open breakers, only a few left.

 

I bought 2 breakers, but I also used them to power an outlet box added to a panel punchout... the PLM is plugged in right there by the signalinc and panel. It was a dual gang box, signalinc on one side, outlet on the other

 

Paul

 

I thought you had to put it on a dedicated circuit, presumably a code issue. The instructions indicate a double pole 15 amp breaker as I recall, and that's not good for much else, is it? When you get a chance, could you please describe the breaker type used and circuits on it? 

 

In my old house I installed the Insteon bridge on a tandem because there were no open slots.  It was a 15amp double pole with two 15 amp single poles on the outside edges.  Paid $20 for that breaker then - it is $31 now.

[paulbates]

I thought you had to put it on a dedicated circuit, presumably a code issue. The instructions indicate a double pole 15 amp breaker as I recall, and that's not good for much else, is it? When you get a chance, could you please describe the breaker type used and circuits on it? 

 

In my old house I installed the Insteon bridge on a tandem because there were no open slots.  It was a 15amp double pole with two 15 amp single poles on the outside edges.  Paid $20 for that breaker then - it is $31 now.

 

There is only the signlinc and an outlet used only for the PLM

• 2 gang work box attached to a punchout in the panel
• signalinc installed on the left gang
• outlet installed on the right gang
• signalinc wired per directions to 2 15A circuit breakers
• outlet wirenutted to one of the lines to the breaker in the workbox
• breakers installed in panel on opposite legs
• PLM plugged into the outlet

Paul

[mwester]

I thought you had to put it on a dedicated circuit, presumably a code issue. The instructions indicate a double pole 15 amp breaker as I recall, and that's not good for much else, is it? When you get a chance, could you please describe the breaker type used and circuits on it? 

 

In my old house I installed the Insteon bridge on a tandem because there were no open slots.  It was a 15amp double pole with two 15 amp single poles on the outside edges.  Paid $20 for that breaker then - it is $31 now.

 

(Butting in on this conversation...)

 

I am aware of nothing in the NEC that would require a dedicated circuit for a device such as this.  Nor am I aware of any electrical reason why the Insteon device would need, or even benefit from, a dedicated circuit -- although it does make some form of sense that the Insteon device be wired in as close to the panel as feasible.  Now I'm not an electrician by trade -- but I did study the NEC (along with my local codes, so that I could qualify to do my own home electrical wiring... and, yes, it all passed inspection, for what that's worth... and, no, despite being in a Chicago suburb at the time, I did NOT pass inspection by bribing the inspector!).

 

While uncommon, there's no reason you cannot use that 15a dual circuit for whatever else you'd like.  You could continue the wiring on to a panel-mounted or nearby duplex outlet, wired so that the top and bottom plugs are on the two legs -- this is how most modern kitchen outlets are wired, with the exception that kitchen outlets are almost always 20a instead of 15a.  But it's completely acceptable, and very practical to do this -- particularly if that duplex outlet ends up in, for example, your workshop where a pair of 15a circuits might be very useful.

 

In my case, I had an existing 240v 15a circuit going outside the house -- and I needed to put a current-measuring device on that circuit anyway, so I cut into that cable, put the current measuring device in a box along with the Insteon bridge thing, and put it all back together.  Works great, and as noted, I'm aware of no National Electrical code violations in doing so (and can't imagine any local codes that would be violated either, but who knows -- Chicago and California spring to mind as the most restrictive and difficult areas... so maybe...)

 

Finally - the tandem breakers may or may not be a code problem.  I've never really been able to determine that -- but for my panel, the manufacturer makes it quite clear that they do not support/recommend the itty bitty tandem breakers except for their older panels.  They'll work -- although one had a metal hook that I couldn't engage until I did a little work with a Dremel tool.  But I dislike them intensely, and those were only temporary until I could get a sub-panel in place for the updated basement wiring when I finished that space off.  I'd suggest if you can to use a sub-panel -- they're very easy to install, and give you the room for wiring that you tend to lack when you're in a situation where you need those little tandem breakers to begin with!

[IndyMike]

It does not absorb / block x10, but the inverse, it absorbs and blocks outside of x10. 

 

http://www.authinx.com/manuals/x10/xpnr.pdf

 

Paul

 

Paul,

 

You are of course correct.  These are marketed as bandpass filters.  After a bit more research I found some measurement data on the device.  They are tuned to X10 120Khz and will therefore absorb some of the 130 Khz Insteon - probably not significant for most applications. 

 

After reading your application on your PCM motor input I can understand that usage.  If the noise was physically killing your PLM, it was not a typical signal/communication issue.  This would be a good application for the XPNR.

 

For correcting communication issues, I believe there are much better alternatives.  Filtering away from the 130 Khz Insteon frequency is normally ineffective.  Insteon devices will normally reject noise that is outside a narrow region around 130 KHz. The XPNR is designed to pass the frequencies that are most likely to affect communications.

 

The XPNR is suitable for High current or high voltage applications where a typical T filter cannot be used.  I am simply questioning it's use for communications issues.

 

I sill have one of these en-route.  I plan to sweep it and disassemble to learn more. 

[ScottAvery]

(Butting in on this conversation...)

 

I am aware of nothing in the NEC that would require a dedicated circuit for a device such as this.  Nor am I aware of any electrical reason why the Insteon device would need, or even benefit from, a dedicated circuit -- although it does make some form of sense that the Insteon device be wired in as close to the panel as feasible.  Now I'm not an electrician by trade -- but I did study the NEC (along with my local codes, so that I could qualify to do my own home electrical wiring... and, yes, it all passed inspection, for what that's worth... and, no, despite being in a Chicago suburb at the time, I did NOT pass inspection by bribing the inspector!).

 

While uncommon, there's no reason you cannot use that 15a dual circuit for whatever else you'd like.  You could continue the wiring on to a panel-mounted or nearby duplex outlet, wired so that the top and bottom plugs are on the two legs -- this is how most modern kitchen outlets are wired, with the exception that kitchen outlets are almost always 20a instead of 15a.  But it's completely acceptable, and very practical to do this -- particularly if that duplex outlet ends up in, for example, your workshop where a pair of 15a circuits might be very useful.

 

In my case, I had an existing 240v 15a circuit going outside the house -- and I needed to put a current-measuring device on that circuit anyway, so I cut into that cable, put the current measuring device in a box along with the Insteon bridge thing, and put it all back together.  Works great, and as noted, I'm aware of no National Electrical code violations in doing so (and can't imagine any local codes that would be violated either, but who knows -- Chicago and California spring to mind as the most restrictive and difficult areas... so maybe...)

 

Finally - the tandem breakers may or may not be a code problem.  I've never really been able to determine that -- but for my panel, the manufacturer makes it quite clear that they do not support/recommend the itty bitty tandem breakers except for their older panels.  They'll work -- although one had a metal hook that I couldn't engage until I did a little work with a Dremel tool.  But I dislike them intensely, and those were only temporary until I could get a sub-panel in place for the updated basement wiring when I finished that space off.  I'd suggest if you can to use a sub-panel -- they're very easy to install, and give you the room for wiring that you tend to lack when you're in a situation where you need those little tandem breakers to begin with!

Again, the code issue was an assumption. The instructions said to put the bridge on it's own so I did. Doesn't make sense to me that it would matter either, which is why I am discussing all of this.  If I can just throw it on two single poles that are on opposite legs and not install a dedicated double pole, then that saves hassle, space, and money.  I have a lot of double poles for single appliances that certainly don't consume their capacity.

 

I did not know I could use a double pole for two single pole circuits as you describe with kitchen outlets.  how does the breaker behave with an unbalanced load?  doesn't matter?

 

I sold my previous house with multiple tandem breakers and the home inspector did not give a warning, not that a private inspector may have the same interests as the municipal inspector.

[ScottAvery]

There is only the signlinc and an outlet used only for the PLM

• 2 gang work box attached to a punchout in the panel
• signalinc installed on the left gang
• outlet installed on the right gang
• signalinc wired per directions to 2 15A circuit breakers
• outlet wirenutted to one of the lines to the breaker in the workbox
• breakers installed in panel on opposite legs
• PLM plugged into the outlet

Paul

 

I like the idea of dedicated plug for the PLM right next to the panel, but I have the zwave module and probably prefer to have the ISY more central.  Unless I can use a really long serial cable to the PLM...