Advise on a new system

[Konrad]

Hello,

 

I am in the process of building a new home and looking for a system that will work for what I would like. I don't know to much about this sort of thing so any help would be great.

I think the ISY with z-wave will work but don't want to install it to later figure out I was wrong.

 

I am looking to using Insteon 8 button keypads in all major rooms (kitchen, dinning, living, stair way, foyer, master bedroom, master bath...about 10-11 keypads in total in the house)

Most major rooms will have 3-8 independent light switches (kitchen has 6 separate lighting loads). So far planning for z-wave plus Leviton switches (DZ6HD-1BZ) on my electricians recommendation. 90% of these switches will be located in a remote location (about 35-40 switches in total). 

My plan is to use the Insteon 8 button keypads to control the Leviton z-wave switches via the ISY. Many of these will be controlled in a 4-way fashion (same kitchen light can turn controlled from foyer, dinning, living, and kitchen as an example).

So far I am not planning on doing scenes which is why I need a keypad with lots of buttons. 

My electrician is concerned that this system will not work, but from what I have read on these forums it seems like it should. 

Ideally I would be using z-wave keypads but none have 8 buttons (Cooper makes a 5 button that my electrician does not want to use).

 

Any thoughts on whether such as system with Insteon 8 button talking to ISY and ISY talking to leviton switches will work (and leviton reporting status back to Inteon keypads)?

 

Thanks,

Konrad

[mwester]

You'll get lots of divergent opinions.  I'll start: avoid Insteon, even if it means compromising on the multi-button devices.  In a nutshell, at this point in time there's been no public announcements of direction from the new owners of the company, and based on the past year's product announcements, as well as announcements at CES there's simply no evidence of any new products or any new product development -- something sorely needed since Insteon's technology (as well as the protocol, both on the power line and over-the-air) is lagging far, far behind the others in this field.

[io_guy]

If you do choose Z-wave, use the Homeseer HD100+ instead of the Leviton as it does not support the proper command classes for instant status.

[asbril]

You'll get lots of divergent opinions.  I'll start: avoid Insteon, even if it means compromising on the multi-button devices.  In a nutshell, at this point in time there's been no public announcements of direction from the new owners of the company, and based on the past year's product announcements, as well as announcements at CES there's simply no evidence of any new products or any new product development -- something sorely needed since Insteon's technology (as well as the protocol, both on the power line and over-the-air) is lagging far, far behind the others in this field.

Many on this forum will disagree, but I am with mwester, avoid Insteon and focus on Zwave.

This being said if the Insteon multi-button work to control your Zwave devices in ISY, then this may be a good start until there will be a Zwave alternative for multi-button devices.... I bet you later this year.

[paulbates]

Hi Konrad, and welcome to the UDI forums.

 

The advantage of the ISY is integrating both Insteon and zwave. The keypad with labeled buttons is a big thing for us & wife approval factor. We use them daily and I've yet to see any equivalent in a zwave product. There are plenty of people using Insteon here. Neither technology is "wart free".  There is the danger of falling into the Mac vs Windows, Ford truck vs Chevy truck type of thing. 

 

Paul 

[paulinlapine]

Hi Konrad, and welcome to the UDI forums.

 

The advantage of the ISY is integrating both Insteon and zwave. The keypad with labeled buttons is a big thing for us & wife approval factor. We use them daily and I've yet to see any equivalent in a zwave product. There are plenty of people using Insteon here. Neither technology is "wart free".  There is the danger of falling into the Mac vs Windows, Ford truck vs Chevy truck type of thing. 

 

Paul 

 

What he said

[lilyoyo1]

Personally, I would use insteon for lighting and Zwave for everything else. I definitely would not mix the 2 for lighting control as that will introduce a delay into your lights operation. With that said, it is definitely doable. You just have to decide whether the delay is worth it or not.

 

I personally prefer Insteon for my lights. The reason being is should my ISY fail, all of my lights will still work natively. I also don't like the delay (no more than a second). The speed at which insteon devices communicates between each other still can't be match by zwave either.

 

I always get a laugh when I hear companies talk about how insteon is behind zwave is doing great things and innovative. The fact is zwave does have some great devices as do insteon. The difference between insteon and Zwave is that zwave is just now adding the basic features for automation that insteon has had for years. Due to the open nature of zwave there are still many issues with communication between all still. Something that you don't have to worry about with insteon.

 

Neither protocol is perfect. By choosing the ISY w/zwave, you've already picked the most important piece. As stated earlier, I would start with insteon for lights and Zwave for everything else. In my house, I use zwave motion sensors, outlets, and locks. The switches are all insteon.

[Teken]

Personally, I would use insteon for lighting and Zwave for everything else. I definitely would not mix the 2 for lighting control as that will introduce a delay into your lights operation. With that said, it is definitely doable. You just have to decide whether the delay is worth it or not.

 

I personally prefer Insteon for my lights. The reason being is should my ISY fail, all of my lights will still work natively. I also don't like the delay (no more than a second). The speed at which insteon devices communicates between each other still can't be match by zwave either.

 

I always get a laugh when I hear companies talk about how insteon is behind zwave is doing great things and innovative. The fact is zwave does have some great devices as do insteon. The difference between insteon and Zwave is that zwave is just now adding the basic features for automation that insteon has had for years. Due to the open nature of zwave there are still many issues with communication between all still. Something that you don't have to worry about with insteon.

 

Neither protocol is perfect. By choosing the ISY w/zwave, you've already picked the most important piece. As stated earlier, I would start with insteon for lights and Zwave for everything else. In my house, I use zwave motion sensors, outlets, and locks. The switches are all insteon.

It's all about that big eye ball motion sensor eh??

[asbril]

Personally, I would use insteon for lighting and Zwave for everything else. I definitely would not mix the 2 for lighting control as that will introduce a delay into your lights operation. With that said, it is definitely doable. You just have to decide whether the delay is worth it or not.

 

I personally prefer Insteon for my lights. The reason being is should my ISY fail, all of my lights will still work natively. I also don't like the delay (no more than a second). The speed at which insteon devices communicates between each other still can't be match by zwave either.

 

I always get a laugh when I hear companies talk about how insteon is behind zwave is doing great things and innovative. The fact is zwave does have some great devices as do insteon. The difference between insteon and Zwave is that zwave is just now adding the basic features for automation that insteon has had for years. Due to the open nature of zwave there are still many issues with communication between all still. Something that you don't have to worry about with insteon.

 

Neither protocol is perfect. By choosing the ISY w/zwave, you've already picked the most important piece. As stated earlier, I would start with insteon for lights and Zwave for everything else. In my house, I use zwave motion sensors, outlets, and locks. The switches are all insteon.

"......I personally prefer Insteon for my lights. The reason being is should my ISY fail, all of my lights will still work natively. ....". So do Zwave light switches.

 

As I said, ISY started as Insteon and as such many in this forum have an emotional attachment to Insteon.  To be fair, Insteon works fine and those having Insteon devices are generally happy.

 

My subjective view is that Insteon depends on the PLM which fails usually after two years. There is only one manufacturer of Insteon devices. Insteon is not cheaper than Zwave, or not substantially so. 

 

If you start from zero, I would definitely recommend to use Zwave as much as you can. Zwave has been adopted by many manufacturers with every day more products. Its mesh networking works very well.  (   https://inovelli.com/z-wave-vs-zigbee-vs-bluetooth-vs-wifi-smart-home-technology/ ).

 

The advantage of ISY is that you can use both Insteon and Zwave. As such the 8-button Insteon devices may work for you. Furthermore, right now, Insteon offers a better fan~fanlight  combination device. But unless Insteon makes big steps, it will be the Yahoo of home automation and Zwave will be Google.....  But then again, who knows what will be around in  few years ?

[lilyoyo1]

It's all about that big eye ball motion sensor eh??

[lilyoyo1]

"......I personally prefer Insteon for my lights. The reason being is should my ISY fail, all of my lights will still work natively. ....". So do Zwave light switches.

 

As I said, ISY started as Insteon and as such many in this forum have an emotional attachment to Insteon. To be fair, Insteon works fine and those having Insteon devices are generally happy.

 

My subjective view is that Insteon depends on the PLM which fails usually after two years. There is only one manufacturer of Insteon devices. Insteon is not cheaper than Zwave, or not substantially so.

 

If you start from zero, I would definitely recommend to use Zwave as much as you can. Zwave has been adopted by many manufacturers with every day more products. Its mesh networking works very well. ( https://inovelli.com/z-wave-vs-zigbee-vs-bluetooth-vs-wifi-smart-home-technology/ ).

 

The advantage of ISY is that you can use both Insteon and Zwave. As such the 8-button Insteon devices may work for you. Furthermore, right now, Insteon offers a better fan~fanlight combination device. But unless Insteon makes big steps, it will be the Yahoo of home automation and Zwave will be Google..... But then again, who knows what will be around in few years ?

Zwave association does allow for direct communication. However, insteon devices communicates faster and allows for communication between more devices (and different device types).

 

The whole "if insteon goes out of business" is played out. If homeseer goes out of business you'd be in the same place; needing to replace your devices. That applies to any company since most people only use 1 type of switch (mixing different looking switches only looks tacky as hell). As you stated "who knows what will be around in a few years". The fact is, switches will still work and a person could find replacements until the remodeled or wanted something different anyway. This applies to insteon, jasco, homeseer, leviton, fibaro, etc.

Edited January 29, 2018 by lilyoyo1

[asbril]

Zwave association does allow for direct communication. However, insteon devices communicates faster and allows for communication between more devices (and different device types).

 

The whole "if insteon goes out of business" is played out. If homeseer goes out of business you'd be in the same place; needing to replace your devices. That applies to any company since most people only use 1 type of switch (mixing different looking switches only looks tacky as hell). As you stated "who knows what will be around in a few years". The fact is, switches will still work and a person could find replacements until the remodeled or wanted something different anyway. This applies to insteon, jasco, homeseer, leviton, fibaro, etc.

As I said there is a multitude of opinions on this topic.  As long as we are all happy with our choices, who cares ? Just one correction, if Homeseer goes out of business their switches will continue to work.

[lilyoyo1]

As I said there is a multitude of opinions on this topic. As long as we are all happy with our choices, who cares ? Just one correction, if Homeseer goes out of business their switches will continue to work.

I wasn't say they would stop working. That applies to every company. My point was in reference to replacement devices. If any company should go out of business and extra devices come off the market, you would be switching anyway. This actually drives my point even further. Insteon has more devices on the market which increases the likelihood of having extra for years over a smaller company such as homeseer.

Edited January 29, 2018 by lilyoyo1

[asbril]

I wasn't say they would stop working. That applies to every company. My point was in reference to replacement devices. If any company should go out of business and extra devices come off the market, you would be switching anyway. This actually drives my point even further. Insteon has more devices on the market which increases the likelihood of having extra for years over a smaller company such as homeseer.

If Insteon goes out of business then there may be many devices in the market but it would likely be the end of the Insteon technology. Not so with Homeseer, GE-Jasco, Inovelli......  These are largely interchangeable.

Illyoyo1, enjoy your Insteon. It is likely to work well for many more years. It was a major improvement on X10, which I used for many years. You like it and that is great.

[stusviews]

I will not adopt a technology that in its current state is less than Insteon because Insteon may go out of business. I will use technology that surpasses Insteon, such a Z-Wave locks. I will not abandon a protocol that not only meets, but often exceeds what I want to accomplish because they may/will eventually be superseded by another. There's no guarantee that Z-Wave may eventually meet the same fate.

 

I will continue use a top notch performer now and until something better catches my fascination. And, yes, I began with X10 and switched to the greatly improved SH X10 technology--until Insteon came along. Again, I'm not in any way averse to using Z-Wave products that outdo Insteon devices.

[cam]

I built my house 2 years ago and went all in with Insteon switchlinc’s... I have over 100 of them. I have over 75 motion sensors wired into my elk for automating lights (turning lights on/off automatically in every room in my home). System has been flawless for 2 years except 1 PLM event.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[asbril]

I will not adopt a technology that in its current state is less than Insteon because Insteon may go out of business. I will use technology that surpasses Insteon, such a Z-Wave locks. I will not abandon a protocol that not only meets, but often exceeds what I want to accomplish because they may/will eventually be superseded by another. There's no guarantee that Z-Wave may eventually meet the same fate.

 

I will continue use a top notch performer now and until something better catches my fascination. And, yes, I began with X10 and switched to the greatly improved SH X10 technology--until Insteon came along. Again, I'm not in any way averse to using Z-Wave products that outdo Insteon devices.

And that is why we live in a free country ! 

[Konrad]

Thank you for your advice.

I do think I will be able to live with a small delay in lights turning on/off by using Insteon keypads. I will look into the Homeseer switches as was suggested which may have better instant status. I may end up switching the Insteon keypads for z-wave ones in the future when they become available but might be happy enough with the short delay of the Insteon.

It would be cheaper to use the Insteon din-rail dimmer switches but my electrician is really pushing z-wave switches over Insteon ones and it seems most people here are moving to z-wave when starting new systems. Seems like my electrician might just have to settle for me using the Insteon keypads .

I can’t see any one protocol being that much better than the other. This will likely all be easier in a few years when the competition figures all this out (who will end up being blue ray and who will be HD-dvd: and all end up being nearly obsolete by Netflix later anyway). At least with devices like ISY both Insteon and z-wave will likely be able to work with whatever new protocol system that comes out.

 

Once again, thanks for your input: it’s reassuring to know this will work (but will have short response delay and the PLM will fail in two years:). Once this system gets up and going I am sure I will have lots of questions on how to make this thing work properly. Home possession is still 5 months away.

[stusviews]

And that is why we live in a free country ! 

 

We live in a free country in order to have some, but not every choice. We are not free to break laws or inflict physical harm to others without just cause nor to take what someone legitimately owns as our own. We are free to make incorrect decisions regarding ourselves and our lives, but not someone else's. Be careful how you interpret a "free country."

[asbril]

We live in a free country in order to have some, but not every choice. We are not free to break laws or inflict physical harm to others without just cause nor to take what someone legitimately owns as our own. We are free to make incorrect decisions regarding ourselves and our lives, but not someone else's. Be careful how you interpret a "free country."

Wow Stu.........  We are talking about Insteon and Zwave. Nothing else.  I respect your opinion and hopefully you respect mine.

[stusviews]

I do think I will be able to live with a small delay in lights turning on/off by using Insteon keypads.

 

Insteon keypads do not introduce a noticeable delay when turning on a light. In fact, they're among the fastest of responders. The only possible way to get a faster reaction is to use a standard switch. Using a program instead of a scene can and will cause a delay no matter witch controller is used.

[stusviews]

Wow Stu.........  We are talking about Insteon and Zwave. Nothing else.  I respect your opinion and hopefully you respect mine.

 

Asbril, you have and have always had my utmost respect. Even your technical ability surpasses most

[asbril]

Asbril, you have and have always had my utmost respect. Even your technical ability surpasses most

I love u 2