pyrorobert Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 Last March, I had to replace my PLM because it failed. I seem to have to replace one at least once a year. I was told that the new version had improvements so it wouldn't fail anymore. But over the last three months I kept having random comm failures with some devices, especially motion sensors. Thursday I lost all communications to all of my Insteon devices. Well, at least my PLM is still under warranty so they are shipping me a replacement. Typically, since I live near Smarthome, I have been able to will call a device and pick it up the same day. I was pretty disappointed once I called in that I found out not only do they outsource all of their phone calls but I was no longer able to will call an order. Even their tech support calls are outsourced. I tried requesting if they could transfer me to someone locally, but they would not. They said I can write an email to request a call back. But I haven't received a response. I'm pretty disappointed on how this has happened. My concern is unfortunately how dependant I am for all my devices to properly work and keep working from all of my lights to my sprinklers and pool controls. I want to have a robust system that just works. Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hchain Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 I lost connections to my devices and Restore ISY failed. Does that mean the PLM is dead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 Last March, I had to replace my PLM because it failed. I seem to have to replace one at least once a year. I was told that the new version had improvements so it wouldn't fail anymore. But over the last three months I kept having random comm failures with some devices, especially motion sensors. Thursday I lost all communications to all of my Insteon devices. Well, at least my PLM is still under warranty so they are shipping me a replacement. Typically, since I live near Smarthome, I have been able to will call a device and pick it up the same day. I was pretty disappointed once I called in that I found out not only do they outsource all of their phone calls but I was no longer able to will call an order. Even their tech support calls are outsourced. I tried requesting if they could transfer me to someone locally, but they would not. They said I can write an email to request a call back. But I haven't received a response. I'm pretty disappointed on how this has happened. My concern is unfortunately how dependant I am for all my devices to properly work and keep working from all of my lights to my sprinklers and pool controls. I want to have a robust system that just works. Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk Thank you for the information on the changes. The direction they seem to be going does not sound too good. Smarthome posted in the reviews section of the 2413S PLM page. V2.3 fixed a problem component they had found. Well now I have seen V2.4 being reported for now PLM's just received. If the V2.3 failed in less than 2 years. I am glad you can get a warranty cross ship replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 I lost connections to my devices and Restore ISY failed. Does that mean the PLM is dead? You may want to look at this thread on PLM failures. https://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/13866-repair-of-2413s-plm-when-the-power-supply-fails/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 Last March, I had to replace my PLM because it failed. I seem to have to replace one at least once a year. Did you get warranty replacements? The warranty is for 2 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrorobert Posted February 10, 2018 Author Share Posted February 10, 2018 Did you get warranty replacements? The warranty is for 2 years.Yes, they did replace it. My last one was only 10 months old. Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokegrub Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 I know I am "beating a dead horse" but by now this problem should have been resolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrorobert Posted February 10, 2018 Author Share Posted February 10, 2018 I so agree, there has to something more robust. How can it be called automated when I'm constantly checking and verifying everything is working properly. Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 I honestly find it near impossible to understand how a simple device can have such failure mode. Its clear to me, and millions of others, no one is taking this seriously because this problem has been happening for almost nine freaking years!!! I've said this more than 100 times when will Smartlabs grab a brain and let someone else design and sell a PLM?!?! They obviously can't and won't fix the problem . . . UDI had several working copies and they simply needed the sale of the chips and tools to update the PLM chip should it ever be needed. The very fact the new guy who has taken over Smartlabs hasn't been told, informed, or made aware there is a systemic problem with the 2413S PLM. Indicates to me he's just another guy living in the clouds with no idea of what's happening around him. Everyday the HA market gets more crowded, every day another company folds, every day someone misses the boat. If this continues Insteon / Smartlabs will be remembered as that epic story of how stupidity brought down one of the best HA protocols in history. I don't know what's worse, being known as stupid, incompetent, or ignorant?!?! Encompassing all three simply leaves me speechless . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbates Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 It is curious. PLM owners are encouraged and do warranty RMA of dead PLMs. I'd think it would show up on a spreadsheet somewhere.... we could: A. Change a couple parts totaling < $0.50 on an existing BOM and order something else B. Continue to pay for swapping out defective units. (??) Reality is that they have headed down the Hub path and their new software stack, and by that I mean Hub/Cloud API, not what is in Insteon devices. The choices are 1. Keep replacing PLMs and live with it I don't have a lot of problems, this is me for now 2. Have one proactively repaired with non crap-caps I'm thinking hard about approaching a member here to pay them to add good caps to my backup PLM 3. Have the ISY use a serial IP like interface to the hub (like Homeseer / Mark Sandler does), thus avoiding the PLM Not sure the hub is any more reliable Plausible approach but takes resources from the ISY, and the need to poll the hub for network would tax the ISY. Having to poll the Insteon network means slower ISY response to network generated messages I'd rather have a fixed PLM 4. Rip out and replace Insteon Personally I can't justify the $ and time, especially when losing key devices unique to insteon Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asbril Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 It is curious. PLM owners are encouraged and do warranty RMA of dead PLMs. I'd think it would show up on a spreadsheet somewhere.... we could: A. Change a couple parts totaling < $0.50 on an existing BOM and order something else B. Continue to pay for swapping out defective units. (??) Reality is that they have headed down the Hub path and their new software stack, and by that I mean Hub/Cloud API, not what is in Insteon devices. The choices are 1. Keep replacing PLMs and live with it I don't have a lot of problems, this is me for now 2. Have one proactively repaired with non crap-caps I'm thinking hard about approaching a member here to pay them to add good caps to my backup PLM 3. Have the ISY use a serial IP like interface to the hub (like Homeseer / Mark Sandler does), thus avoiding the PLM Not sure the hub is any more reliable Plausible approach but takes resources from the ISY, and the need to poll the hub for network would tax the ISY. Having to poll the Insteon network means slower ISY response to network generated messages I'd rather have a fixed PLM 4. Rip out and replace Insteon Personally I can't justify the $ and time, especially when losing key devices unique to insteon Paul 4. Rip out and replace Insteon Personally I can't justify the $ and time, especially when losing key devices unique to insteon What you CAN do is, whenever an Insteon device needs to be replaced, replace it with a Zwave device. The beauty of ISY is that it can handle both. This way even when the PLM goes down you can still manage some of your devices. BTW, I only used Insteon for a few months, with only a few Insteon devices, when my PLM stopped working and I decided to go Zwave all the way. Is Insteon not supposed to connect both through power and radio waves ? If so, should (some) Insteon devices continue to work even with the PLM down ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 Its clear to me, and millions of others, no one is taking this seriously because this problem has been happening for almost nine freaking years!!! I doubt that the PLM issue involves millions. They obviously can't and won't fix the problem . . . Well, they tried, so that they won't may not be applicable. The very fact the new guy who has taken over Smartlabs hasn't been told, informed, or made aware there is a systemic problem with the 2413S PLM. Indicates to me he's just another guy living in the clouds with no idea of what's happening around him. . Any substantial evidence that, "the new guy who has taken over Smartlabs hasn't been told, informed, or made aware there is a systemic problem with the 2413S PLM." Or are you guessing based on the fact that problem still exists. If this continues Insteon / Smartlabs will be remembered as that epic story of how stupidity brought down one of the best HA protocols in history. Not everyone uses a PLM for HA. Too, I haven't seen the PLM problem posted often on other HA sites. I am in no way implying that there exists a problem with the PLM that should have been fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbates Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 What you CAN do is, whenever an Insteon device needs to be replaced, replace it with a Zwave device. The beauty of ISY is that it can handle both. This way even when the PLM goes down you can still manage some of your devices. Is Insteon not supposed to connect both through power and radio waves ? If so, should (some) Insteon devices continue to work even with the PLM down ? I haven't lost that many Insteon devices in 11 years, and well over 3 years with my serial PLM for the ISY. All my room lighting continues to work if the PLM were to die. I use direct scenes from the devices to the lights. No dependence on the PLM or the ISY for day to day use - press the switch, light goes on/off. They also respond very quickly. Neither RF nor powerline paths depend on the PLM. All lights will continue to function, PLM /ISY working or not. I do have a couple keypad keys that set the state of the house and use ISY programs: "Goodnight", "Home/Away", "Party"..etc, I would lose those if the PLM died but they wouldn't make the family crazy. I don't want to install a mixed set of switch brands/looks and behaviors for my family, rather keep it uniform and simple. No confusion or complaints. I don't want to set up aeon sirens, etc, to get zwave to work across my house. More time and money I'm not willing to invest. I do like zwave and if key features been there 10 years ago, I probably would have some for some functions. It just doesn't make sense for me now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 Stu, No company in the world would ever let their brand / name be known for low quality unless the bean counters have determined the value cost ratio is not n their favor. Think GM, Ford, Chrysler, Cigarette, Oil & Gas companies. All of the above are perfect examples where the cost of human life vs owning up to a defect / contamination in a legal battle is in their favor. Smartlabs knows exactly what is wrong with the hardware. The 2413S PLM repair thread in this forum is real world proof that an extra $2.50 could make that device last well past the two year death rate. In five years since 2.XX PLM hardware revision has gone into production. These fools still can't produce a 2413S PLM that doesn't fail and die under two years?!? Come on - That's a utter fail!! Someone has simply decided to roll the dice the predictable revenue / replacement costs isn't worth the extra $2.50. If that isn't the case the most logical answer is what I stated early on. Incompetence, ignorance, and stupidity. Because a second year hardware engineer would have identified root cause and fixed this issue eight years ago!! One needs only role back the time machine of every product linked to cheap parts. Think Tac switch, 2412N, KPL, Lamp Linc, Relay Module, 240 Load Controller, etc. Bottom line, cheap parts are being specified and used. Who ever is running the engineering team is either being ignored about what should be used. Or those running Smartlabs is over riding what any first year hardware engineer would know is a flawed design and a ticking time bomb. If it's none of the above then they are surrounded by incompetent fools that need to be fired, period! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryllix Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 A soon failing PLM keeps ISY owners on a string. If the deal works out with Apple and goes big, they won't want any competition, and they can squash ISY within a few years by discontinuing the PLM manufacturing and replacements for the failing unit already in the field will not be available. If sleeping with Apple doesn't pan out so well, SH has quite a few ISY users still buying their products so they just keep making PLMs. SH has their bread buttered on both sides. Why buy the cow when you can milk it for free? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 larryflix, thanks for the reminder. You are correct, once set up, everything functions without the ISY except programs. And having matching devices throughout is a plus. IMO, Apple is too restrictive in which Insteon devices they're allowing for the Hub Pro along with the HomeKit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 Teken, I never disagreed with your contention that the PLM needs/requires improvement, particularly with its lifespan. My disagreement is only with speculations that you state as fact. Case in point (ignoring the others): It's entirely possible the the new owner is exclusively an investor. As such, the product has little meaning, only the financial aspect. So, one wouldn't expect that person to be familiar the nuts and bolts, so to speak. How involved is Warren Buffet with the nitty-gritty of all the companies he's invested in? Consider that paddles are no longer engraved, but buttons are, that the SynchfoLinc has been dropped along with other devices. If the "books" are not favorable, then drop it, even if it's a high profit item. The profit margin is meaningless if sales don't meet expectations. This is, of course, a conjecture. I really don't know the new owners role Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asbril Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 I haven't lost that many Insteon devices in 11 years, and well over 3 years with my serial PLM for the ISY. All my room lighting continues to work if the PLM were to die. I use direct scenes from the devices to the lights. No dependence on the PLM or the ISY for day to day use - press the switch, light goes on/off. They also respond very quickly. Neither RF nor powerline paths depend on the PLM. All lights will continue to function, PLM /ISY working or not. I do have a couple keypad keys that set the state of the house and use ISY programs: "Goodnight", "Home/Away", "Party"..etc, I would lose those if the PLM died but they wouldn't make the family crazy. I don't want to install a mixed set of switch brands/looks and behaviors for my family, rather keep it uniform and simple. No confusion or complaints. I don't want to set up aeon sirens, etc, to get zwave to work across my house. More time and money I'm not willing to invest. I do like zwave and if key features been there 10 years ago, I probably would have some for some functions. It just doesn't make sense for me now. I understand that the switches work manually without a PLM, but my question was if, without a working PLM, the Insteon switches can still be controlled with the ISY by using the RF capability of Insteon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Scenes will work without the PLM. If dual-band devices are involved, then both the powerline an RF are used for signaling. Neither band requires the PLM at all. However, programs won't function. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwester Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 18 hours ago, asbril said: I understand that the switches work manually without a PLM, but my question was if, without a working PLM, the Insteon switches can still be controlled with the ISY by using the RF capability of Insteon... No. The RF capability is provided by the PLM -- the ISY has no built-in Insteon RF capability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrorobert Posted February 13, 2018 Author Share Posted February 13, 2018 So I received a phone call from Smarthome this afternoon after I had sent them an email with my concerns in regards to my PLM issue and their customer service. They did reimburse my shipping costs after paying the additional $14 for expedited shipping. And they also want to take a look at my PLM that failed to 8nvestigate further. On another note, the new PLM I received is version 2.4. Hoping this time it makes a difference(crossing fingers). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 I hope it will be a better fix over the V2.3. I have seen photos of a V2.4. It showed a new Serial Port Daughter Board in it All of my assortment of 2412S and 2413S PLM's have the same basic daughter board in them. So it is new for 2.4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilyoyo1 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Having a device prematurely fail constantly makes me wonder if there is another issue that a person may be experiencing. Many people cite the plm for many issues when it wasn't the plm itself. Case in point, the plm I'm currently using (and have been for years) was a customer return (given to me to test) for failure. I do keep a backup (i have a backup for all of my devices) for the day it does ultimately fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Can't say about others. I know all my failed 2413S PLM's and hardware 2 2443 Access Points. Have BAD power supply capacitors. Same questionable brand in all of them. I can't say anything about the V2.4 as I don't have much information on it. Other than a photo I saw has a different serial port daughter board in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 Just want to point out the obvious here... this thread exists. It shouldn't. I am -this- close to giving up on Insteon, as I have had 10% success and 90% failure in trying to get my PLM working. This morning, I jumped back on the forums hoping to find some troubleshooting tips, but it appears that the most robust troubleshooting may well indeed be ditching the PLM and either finding an alternative (if there actually is one) or eliminating Insteon from any further consideration. Very disappointing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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