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What I've learned about Schlage Locks and Z-Wave


wdhille

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So let me start out by saying I'm less than six weeks into my home automation project. I am new at this and trying to come up to speed quickly. I bought the Insteon UDI devices because of the dual Power Line and RF technology. And because I could lock everything behind a Cisco ASA firewall and not tell Google, Amazon, Putin or the FBI every time I turned a light on or off. The comms links UDI devices have been 100% rock solid. Since Christmas I've put in almost 50 devices, to include four Schlage locks. The locks are model BE469NX CAM 619 and were bought online. Now being totally honest there is a saying "RTFM", and anyone who is into technology knows Reading The Flipping Manual is an absolute last resort. Especially when they are written in font size 2....  So here are some thoughts you can agree with or not, and the experts probably know all this, but here goes. 

1) The ISY needs to be a few feet (few means <=10') and in direct line of site of the Schlage when you add or remove it. Don't power up the Schage for the first time when it is not in the door or you will screw up it's mechanical initiation and limit setting. (how do I know this....??)

2) If you have problems, you can't just disable a device. It stays online until you exclude it. At least that is what I've seen. If you are having problems including it, try to exclude it first. You can take a device, unplug it, disable it, and when you do a "show information in event viewer" it must come from memory in the ISY and not the actual device. 

3) The first lock I installed is 20 feet max from the ISY. It worked ok most of the time. So I bought another for the front door. That worked fine too. Then I bought a third for our shop which is a separate building about 70 feet from the ISY. That actually worked if I placed the ISY vertical on a shelf and the sunspots were down. (you get the point...) So I bought a fourth for the basement door. And of course they all could not work, and the reality is I didn't expect them to all work at the same time.

So, I checked online and bought some of these Aeotec Repeaters. Two to be exact. Frankly, and maybe it was my not RTFM, but they really didn't help. A quick call to Schlage and they said buy these  Jasco ZW4101's and put them in. They will work. This is also GE part 45603. I've spent many hours watching my network optimize and heal, and I could very clearly see that the Jasco repeaters "saw" my locks, and the ISY, but I could not reliably query a lock without getting the "failed to communicate" message. Even with one repeater five feet from a lock and another five feet from the ISY.  The JASCO ZW4101 does not work with my Schlage locks. Period. 

So... Back to the interweb in search of a solution. Today, two Inovelli Z-Wave plus light module's (and repeater) showed up. Along with 35 pounds of dog food that was ten bucks cheaper than pet smart.... I of course did not read all the lawyer statements and manuals, but they had a large tag on them saying when you need to put your hub in the "add a Z-Wave" device mode before you plug it in.  So now when I "show all information" in the event viewer I see some different things. I see association, Security and Z-Wave Plus and transport service. Mostly techno-babble to me, but the Jasco didn't have it.... And the Jasco didn't apparently support "beaming". Guess they never saw Star Trek...

 

ZW018_1 uid=18 type=4.16.1 mid=786 tid=9216 pid=9216 model=0
-  x5E  V0  ZWAVEPLUS_INFO
-  x86  V0  VERSION
-  x72  V2  MANUFACTURER_SPECIFIC
-  x5A  V0  DEVICE_RESET_LOCALLY
-  x85  V2  ASSOCIATION
-  x59  V0  ASSOCIATION_GRP_INFO
-  x73  V0  POWERLEVEL
-  x25  V0  SWITCH_BINARY
-  x27  V0  SWITCH_ALL
-  x70  V1  CONFIGURATION
-  x5B  V0  CENTRAL_SCENE
-  x71  V0  NOTIFICATION
-  x8E  V3  MULTI_INSTANCE_ASSOCIATION
-  x55  V0  TRANSPORT_SERVICE
-  x98  V0  SECURITY
-  x9F  V0  
-  x6C  V0  
-  x7A  V4  FIRMWARE_UPDATE_MD

Node  18 - WW Repeater_018 has the following neighbors

-          - Node   1 - [This ISY]
-          - Node   8 - Wayne's World Lock
-          - Node  14 - Old Garage Door Lock
- Repeater - Node  17 - Hall Repeater_017


[ZW-SHOW         ] Node  18 - WW Repeater_018 has 2 association groups


Associations for group 001 of ZW018_1 WW Repeater_018

   - Node   1 - [This ISY] 

***************************************************************

***************************************************************

***************************************************************

So... it appears that the Inovelli devices work. The physical layout is such that the first repeater is in between the front door and basement door. And the second repeater is 70 feet away in the shop, but five feet from a Schlage lock. I am ready to hit buy now to get a few more, but if two will do the trick why bother. 

So some thoughts...

     -UDI/Insteon/Tech Support: please make your own Z-Wave repeater so we don't have to f with this other stuff. Ideally, I'd like a  PLM/RF  link to something that then does Z-Wave so I can use my extensive rock solid  UDI PLM/RF mesh with your devices, and only go to Z-wave for the last ten feet. How hard can that be...

     -Get in bed with Kwikset, Schlage, Medico or someone else and integrate your technology into their locks....

     - RF is RF. I get it. It's not FM. (Flipping Magic...) The patch antennas  you use inside the ISY box are a compromise at best. They are one step above a wet noodle and a 50 ohm load. If you can test them in an anechoic chamber you will find they are down -5 to -20 dB from an isotropic source. I suspect the PLM saves the day for the UDI hardware, but patch antennas are one step above a 50 ohm dummy load.... Seriously. 

     - Information is key.... I'd like to know signal levels, error rates, and graphically show me the path from my ISY to a particular device. How many hops am I taking, and what is my packet loss. And, can I adjust packet length or data rates to increase network reliability?

Just my two cents. Good luck, and thanks to everyone who has tried to help me, especially Michel from UDI who I'm still trying to figure if they are a bot!!!

Wayne


 

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52 minutes ago, wdhille said:

     - Information is key.... I'd like to know signal levels, error rates, and graphically show me the path from my ISY to a particular device. How many hops am I taking, and what is my packet loss. And, can I adjust packet length or data rates to increase network reliability?

After looking at several controllers(wink, udi, smartthings, aeon sticks), my understanding is that controller manufactures do not have access to the information you mentioned.  The controllers interact with a Sigma Designs SoC/chip via a so-called serial API (usually the main controller CPU talks via an USART to the sigma chip) . The API is not publicly documented but one can gain access to it by signing an NDA /paying to SD for the license (some zwave docs were made publicly available last year but not the serial API itself).

The Serial protocol was mostly reverse engineered in OpenZwave, though. Even if you do have access to official docs, judging by the OpenZwave project, you still cannot get the important metrics such as signal strength and the path the packet travels along as there appears to be no serial api calls to get the information.

One could use an RF probe capable of reading zwave packets (see an earlier discussion on this page about zwave sniffers) to figure out  network behavior. That's what I do with my network if I have issues.

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7 hours ago, wdhille said:

So let me start out by saying I'm less than six weeks into my home automation project. I am new at this and trying to come up to speed quickly. I bought the Insteon UDI devices because of the dual Power Line and RF technology. And because I could lock everything behind a Cisco ASA firewall and not tell Google, Amazon, Putin or the FBI every time I turned a light on or off. The comms links UDI devices have been 100% rock solid. Since Christmas I've put in almost 50 devices, to include four Schlage locks. The locks are model BE469NX CAM 619 and were bought online. Now being totally honest there is a saying "RTFM", and anyone who is into technology knows Reading The Flipping Manual is an absolute last resort. Especially when they are written in font size 2....  So here are some thoughts you can agree with or not, and the experts probably know all this, but here goes. 

1) The ISY needs to be a few feet (few means <=10') and in direct line of site of the Schlage when you add or remove it. Don't power up the Schage for the first time when it is not in the door or you will screw up it's mechanical initiation and limit setting. (how do I know this....??)

2) If you have problems, you can't just disable a device. It stays online until you exclude it. At least that is what I've seen. If you are having problems including it, try to exclude it first. You can take a device, unplug it, disable it, and when you do a "show information in event viewer" it must come from memory in the ISY and not the actual device. 

3) The first lock I installed is 20 feet max from the ISY. It worked ok most of the time. So I bought another for the front door. That worked fine too. Then I bought a third for our shop which is a separate building about 70 feet from the ISY. That actually worked if I placed the ISY vertical on a shelf and the sunspots were down. (you get the point...) So I bought a fourth for the basement door. And of course they all could not work, and the reality is I didn't expect them to all work at the same time.

So, I checked online and bought some of these Aeotec Repeaters. Two to be exact. Frankly, and maybe it was my not RTFM, but they really didn't help. A quick call to Schlage and they said buy these  Jasco ZW4101's and put them in. They will work. This is also GE part 45603. I've spent many hours watching my network optimize and heal, and I could very clearly see that the Jasco repeaters "saw" my locks, and the ISY, but I could not reliably query a lock without getting the "failed to communicate" message. Even with one repeater five feet from a lock and another five feet from the ISY.  The JASCO ZW4101 does not work with my Schlage locks. Period. 

So... Back to the interweb in search of a solution. Today, two Inovelli Z-Wave plus light module's (and repeater) showed up. Along with 35 pounds of dog food that was ten bucks cheaper than pet smart.... I of course did not read all the lawyer statements and manuals, but they had a large tag on them saying when you need to put your hub in the "add a Z-Wave" device mode before you plug it in.  So now when I "show all information" in the event viewer I see some different things. I see association, Security and Z-Wave Plus and transport service. Mostly techno-babble to me, but the Jasco didn't have it.... And the Jasco didn't apparently support "beaming". Guess they never saw Star Trek...

 

ZW018_1 uid=18 type=4.16.1 mid=786 tid=9216 pid=9216 model=0
-  x5E  V0  ZWAVEPLUS_INFO
-  x86  V0  VERSION
-  x72  V2  MANUFACTURER_SPECIFIC
-  x5A  V0  DEVICE_RESET_LOCALLY
-  x85  V2  ASSOCIATION
-  x59  V0  ASSOCIATION_GRP_INFO
-  x73  V0  POWERLEVEL
-  x25  V0  SWITCH_BINARY
-  x27  V0  SWITCH_ALL
-  x70  V1  CONFIGURATION
-  x5B  V0  CENTRAL_SCENE
-  x71  V0  NOTIFICATION
-  x8E  V3  MULTI_INSTANCE_ASSOCIATION
-  x55  V0  TRANSPORT_SERVICE
-  x98  V0  SECURITY
-  x9F  V0  
-  x6C  V0  
-  x7A  V4  FIRMWARE_UPDATE_MD

Node  18 - WW Repeater_018 has the following neighbors

-          - Node   1 - [This ISY]
-          - Node   8 - Wayne's World Lock
-          - Node  14 - Old Garage Door Lock
- Repeater - Node  17 - Hall Repeater_017


[ZW-SHOW         ] Node  18 - WW Repeater_018 has 2 association groups


Associations for group 001 of ZW018_1 WW Repeater_018

   - Node   1 - [This ISY] 

***************************************************************

***************************************************************

***************************************************************

So... it appears that the Inovelli devices work. The physical layout is such that the first repeater is in between the front door and basement door. And the second repeater is 70 feet away in the shop, but five feet from a Schlage lock. I am ready to hit buy now to get a few more, but if two will do the trick why bother. 

So some thoughts...

     -UDI/Insteon/Tech Support: please make your own Z-Wave repeater so we don't have to f with this other stuff. Ideally, I'd like a  PLM/RF  link to something that then does Z-Wave so I can use my extensive rock solid  UDI PLM/RF mesh with your devices, and only go to Z-wave for the last ten feet. How hard can that be...

     -Get in bed with Kwikset, Schlage, Medico or someone else and integrate your technology into their locks....

     - RF is RF. I get it. It's not FM. (Flipping Magic...) The patch antennas  you use inside the ISY box are a compromise at best. They are one step above a wet noodle and a 50 ohm load. If you can test them in an anechoic chamber you will find they are down -5 to -20 dB from an isotropic source. I suspect the PLM saves the day for the UDI hardware, but patch antennas are one step above a 50 ohm dummy load.... Seriously. 

     - Information is key.... I'd like to know signal levels, error rates, and graphically show me the path from my ISY to a particular device. How many hops am I taking, and what is my packet loss. And, can I adjust packet length or data rates to increase network reliability?

Just my two cents. Good luck, and thanks to everyone who has tried to help me, especially Michel from UDI who I'm still trying to figure if they are a bot!!!

Wayne


 

Capture.JPG

Zwave is a great protocol whose biggest weakness is implementation. Not everyone supports the same thing. Due to that it is not always easy to determine what works best. With the said, following the guidance and advice of users already vested in zwave is Paramount. 

Regardless of the technology used, all of them requieres repeaters. The biggest issues that i have found is most DIYers are not willing to invest in the infrastructure that it takes to achieve their desired results. They want the bare minimum which will always cause the biggest headache. I would rather have 1 or 2 extra devices that aren't needed to ensure strong comms vs just enough that may go out from time to time. 

There are diagnostic tools you can purchase to give you the information you are looking for. With that said, it's cheaper to invest in additional devices vs buying a scanner; only for it to tell you that you need more devices. 

Insteon is not zwave so there is zero reason for them to release a zwave repeater. The PLM is for insteon devices only.  UDI could release a device but that would be a Band-Aid at best and a complete waste at worse. At one time they did have an external antenna available but found out that it was worthless. Additional repeating devices worked better. The key to any successful system is investment. 

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"Insteon is not zwave so there is zero reason for them to release a zwave repeater."

Like I said, I'm new to the home automation world (but not RF, mesh networks and puters...) , but it was my understanding my ISY944 with Z-Wave was made by UDI?  

Regarding the antennas.... An internal antenna buried on a circuit board next to a microprocessor SHOULD never outperform an external antenna. If it does, something is wrong. Might it be possible the folks who make the UDI components understand bits and bytes better than dB's? That's like saying your pistol is more accurate than a rifle at 600 yards. 

Wayne

 

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37 minutes ago, wdhille said:

"Insteon is not zwave so there is zero reason for them to release a zwave repeater."

Like I said, I'm new to the home automation world (but not RF, mesh networks and puters...) , but it was my understanding my ISY944 with Z-Wave was made by UDI?  

Regarding the antennas.... An internal antenna buried on a circuit board next to a microprocessor SHOULD never outperform an external antenna. If it does, something is wrong. Might it be possible the folks who make the UDI components understand bits and bytes better than dB's? That's like saying your pistol is more accurate than a rifle at 600 yards. 

Wayne

 

UDI makes both the ISY Series Controller and the Z-Wave dongle. What people were seeing in the past was the external antenna was more directional vs the internal one being (loosely speaking) more omni directional. 

Regardless, I do agree that a external antenna should operate better than a internal one assuming all things are equal . . .

 

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4 hours ago, wdhille said:

"Insteon is not zwave so there is zero reason for them to release a zwave repeater."

Like I said, I'm new to the home automation world (but not RF, mesh networks and puters...) , but it was my understanding my ISY944 with Z-Wave was made by UDI?  

Regarding the antennas.... An internal antenna buried on a circuit board next to a microprocessor SHOULD never outperform an external antenna. If it does, something is wrong. Might it be possible the folks who make the UDI components understand bits and bytes better than dB's? That's like saying your pistol is more accurate than a rifle at 600 yards. 

Wayne

 

Either way you are speaking about an antenna. There are many environmental concerns which can affect signal strength regardless of type which means additional products still come into play

The best automation systems are those with a full mesh system. While an antenna may help, zwave is at its strongest when you build a strong network. This applies to any technology. 

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Hi

Note:  I have included a Guide from Honeywell that is excellent for learning how to deal with Z-Wave topology. 

The Aeotec extender will work for the locks  BUT you need to include it into the network in secure mode. 

  • All Locks need a secure path between the ISY and the door lock.
  • A non-secure device in the middle breaks the chain**.  I missed that too at first!
  • The device closest to the Lock MUST support beaming.

 

**Note: I just read a post by VJK that says the secure path is not mandatory and he could be correct.  However, in my case it seemed to have corrected the problem (the door lock was the first thing I did).  By building the mesh properly, as identified in this post, I might have solved an underlying problem masquerading as a security fault.

How to build a z-Wave network:  

1) Read the attached PDF from Honeywell, it will save a lot of heart ache.

Short version:

  1. Establish the location of the ISY.  
  2. You will be placing the extenders (and/or repeaters) in a "virtual ring" around the ISY. (See PDF).  Walls and blockages reduce range,  so you need to plan for this so the signal strengths are "even", this is the "virtual" part.  You need the same signal strength, not the same distance.
  3. Pay special attention to devices that cannot pass encrypted or secure messages.  These can block your network if placed in the wrong location. (see note**)
  4. Ensure a beaming device is closest to battery devices (Example: Locks, Motion Detectors)

2) Plan your Mesh (Location of ISY, Extenders & Repeaters and then devices) 

  • Make sure you have no choke points.
  • Make sure you have a secure path to the ISY for locks and other security devices.
  • Make sure your battery device is closest (Signal Strength) to a device that supports "Beaming" when you include it.

Design your mesh network starting from the center (ISY). BTW, once I properly set-up the network topology for Z-Wave things have worked really well.

3) Learn how to set your devices into secure mode, if they can't then add them LAST.

  1. Set your Z-Wave security controller/gateway into  pairing mode. 
  2. Press the Z-Wave Button 2 times within 1 second and its LED will blink blue (which indicates secure pairing).
  3. If the Range Extender has been successfully  added to your Z-Wave network, its blue LED will be solid for 2 seconds and then be off. Otherwise, repeater the steps above.

4) Build out the Network

  • Join to the ISY by setting-up "secure mode" joins:
  1. Ensure ISY is the primary controller.  
  2. Take your first extender or "secure repeating device" and include it into the ISY mesh in SECURE mode
  3. Your next extender should securely included the next quadrant (I use clockwise) and logically equidistant from the ISY, repeating this until your "ring" is complete. 
  4. Once 3 is done, include devices in the next most distant "ring" etc.  Building out your network.
  5. Then. include non-secure devices LAST regardless of where they are in the "rings".  This is to ensure they are not on the route to the ISY for any secure device. 
  6. Add in the Devices that support battery controls with "Beaming"
  7. Finally, add any other secondary controllers, but ensure you understand how they operate.  NOTE: this can get messy if the new controller takes over as primary.  It can cause the network to stop functioning correctly.

 

PS - Yes, I too setup the deadbolt on my desk,  not knowing about the calibration sequence for the deadbolt position...

 

Introductory-Guide-to-Z-Wave-Technology.pdf

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Wayne, thanks for the post on Schlege locks.  I have been holding off purchasing a Schlege  for about a month now wondering about compatibility.

With regard to the ISY antenna; I was told by UDI that adding an external antenna would not provide any added signal strength.  They said the signal attenuation from the antenna connector would offset the gain of the antenna.  From my experience, I do not necessarily agree with this.  Maybe a better connector or not use a connectors would do a better job.

My longest Z Wave hop is to my mailbox 40' away from my ISY through two walls.  To make this reliable I placed my ISY on it's side.  I also placed my mailbox sensor (AeoTech) in a copper feed horn antenna cut to the Z Wave frequency.   I built this into the back of the mailbox using an acrylic cover pointing towards the ISY.  This made all the difference.  One other thing I did was to verify I had no devices using 908.42 MHz in my house, just my HA system.

Just my 2 cents..

 

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KSchex:  Sounds like you have it figured out. I think at least part of my problem is (was) that I don't want to build out a large Z-Wave mesh network just to control my locks. I've got a very robust network with my UDI devices...  But I do want the Z-Wave locks to work, and one is about 90 feet away. So if I just had the ISY and one lock, I'd want gain antennas pointing to each other and be done with it. But... my four locks are all over the place, so I needed to add some repeaters (Inovelli) for the first and second hop. I really wanted to put my ISY in the basement next to Cisco ASA and POE switch, but then Z-Wave ran out of hops before it got to the shop. So right now, things seem happy (which means I'm happy!) and the ISY is physically in the middle of the four locks, with two off in one direction and two off in another. And I ended up with three repeaters, which finally work. 

I've thought about the comments that external Z-Wave antennas don't improve network performance. I can see that if you have and want a robust Z-Wave mesh network with lots of devices. You don't then want the ISY talking directly to each device, so you want a weak signal that only hits the first devices and does not interfere with the ones at max range. 

Good luck,

Wayne

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I don't want to hijack Wayne's (wdhille's) thread, but I thought that my experience is so similar to his that I could ask for a little guidance here. 

Like Wayne, I have four Z-Wave locks scattered around my home - the furthest is about 70 feet from the ISY. They are Yale Real-Living locks rather than Schlage, but what the heck. Also like Wayne, I don't want to build out a large Z-Wave mesh network just to control my locks, because already have a 40 device Insteon network in place to manage lighting. So I went and bought four Aeon Siren Gen5's to act as repeaters. I placed those siren/repeaters within 10 feet of every door lock (basically they are plugged into the outlet nearest the door). I built my network by pairing the locks (uninstalled) within a few feet of my ISY and then installing them in the doors and then running a Z-Wave Heal.

The Z-Wave Heal works 100% of the time and I probably have run them several hundred times...

But when I go to query all four locks (they are all grouped in a scene to make that easy), invariably one of the queries fail with the message "Cannot communicate with XXXX-Lock (ZW00X_1. Please check connections". Which lock fails appears to be random - they all take turns. Some times two fail. Trying to remotely lock the locks using a simple program also results in one of the lock commands failing with the message "Cannot communicate..." 

I have spent a lot of time troubleshooting this, including: 

  1. I've tried to set all the repeater devices into secure mode, but with sirens, the double button trick isn't mentioned in the manual and doesn't seem to work
  2. I believe that all the Yale locks support FLiRS beaming 
  3. I have healed the network too many times to count
  4. I have turned off "Automatically put Devices back to sleep"
  5. I've check the neighbours list and it all makes sense.

I haven't tried completely rebuilding the network according to Irakandjii post, but that is next plan.

I'm guessing that this might be a battery device wake-up issue, but haven't been able to prove that. Anyone have any ideas how to troubleshoot this mess?

Regards

Eric (PLCGuy)

 

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This sounds like a time out issue.  It might be that with 4 locks you randomly block a lock from time to time.  Time out failures would explain the random lock that fails, as well as the random nature of the failure.

This is an "educated guess" based on very little information, but a lot or experience.  To test this theory break up your scene into say 2 chunks of 2, or if possible put a wait between each query.  I do not remember the allowed time for a lock to wake up to  sense the beam.. but I think it is a second or more.   SO to be sure, wait say 5 seconds between queries, then if the problem stops work backwards towards 0.

I trust this helps

 

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Eric: No worries about hijacking a thread, the more people that share what they are doing and how they are solving the better. So the one thing I still see with my Schlage locks is when I query the status, if the link is not rock solid I get the failed to communicate blah blah blah message. (techno-babble for you lost some bits...)  But... the locks still lock and unlock. So I think what is might be the status requests sends more info, and on a marginal link it loses bits. Or bytes. But who knows. I think the key though is repeaters, and some will not work. (Jasco 4101...) And... we're probably pushing the limit for range on the Z-Wave since it is such low power and apparently only does three hops before quitting. So in cases where you need to go over 100 feet it's a problem.

Which then gets back to my suggestion to UDI to make a Z-Wave repeater please. We have rock solid UDI mesh networks, but only want to invest in a few Z-Wave devices, not an entire mesh. I have three UDI switches that work 100% two feet from my furthest lock... OR... better yet, team up with a real lock company and get the Insteon technology in a deadbolt. Hey, you can make $$....

Just my 2 cents..

Wayne

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2 hours ago, wdhille said:

Which then gets back to my suggestion to UDI to make a Z-Wave repeater please.

As I mentioned earlier, there's little UDI or any other vendor such as Smartthings for example can do since all of them rely on a Sigma Design black box chip accessible through the Serial API.  They all are at the mercy of the chip manufacturer, and in this respect no better off than any end user when trying to understand where communication disruption takes place.

You may want to follow KeviNH and get the device that can collect a packet trace to at least know where to concentrate your efforts (assuming the gadget actually works):

 

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3 hours ago, wdhille said:

Eric: No worries about hijacking a thread, the more people that share what they are doing and how they are solving the better. So the one thing I still see with my Schlage locks is when I query the status, if the link is not rock solid I get the failed to communicate blah blah blah message. (techno-babble for you lost some bits...)  But... the locks still lock and unlock. So I think what is might be the status requests sends more info, and on a marginal link it loses bits. Or bytes. But who knows. I think the key though is repeaters, and some will not work. (Jasco 4101...) And... we're probably pushing the limit for range on the Z-Wave since it is such low power and apparently only does three hops before quitting. So in cases where you need to go over 100 feet it's a problem.

Which then gets back to my suggestion to UDI to make a Z-Wave repeater please. We have rock solid UDI mesh networks, but only want to invest in a few Z-Wave devices, not an entire mesh. I have three UDI switches that work 100% two feet from my furthest lock... OR... better yet, team up with a real lock company and get the Insteon technology in a deadbolt. Hey, you can make $$....

Just my 2 cents..

Wayne

There are too many variables when it comes to rf to guarantee a udi designed repeater would work (and that's even if they could use their own design). No matter how you want to spin it, you need to build out your network. Yes it sucks to spend a couple of hundred bucks just to control a lock. Its Paramount to do it properly if you want a rock solid system. I try to find dual use products for repeating. This makes investing that much easier as I at least get use out of the product. 

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27 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

There are too many variables when it comes to rf to guarantee a udi designed repeater would work (and that's even if they could use their own design). No matter how you want to spin it, you need to build out your network. Yes it sucks to spend a couple of hundred bucks just to control a lock. Its Paramount to do it properly if you want a rock solid system. I try to find dual use products for repeating. This makes investing that much easier as I at least get use out of the product. 

But, but, but, Z-Wave is so much better and superior than Insteon . . . :? :-D

Every one of these DIY protocols requires an investment of time, resources, and finances, period. I've stated this one comment more than hundred times and some thought I was exaggerating. That was many of the Z-Wave installs I completed needed no less than 4 ~ 10 repeaters scattered around the home just to make a lock operate reliably and consistently!!

Imagine explaining to the wife why it is you need to install ten plus sirens through out your home?!?!

If that doesn't get you in the dog house in terms of a waste of finances I don't know what will.

As has been affirmed in this thread alone multiple repeaters are required to make a solid Z-Wave mesh operate. Doesn't help the entire Z-Wave protocol is a utter fail because routing to nodes is from the 80's. Next, is the endless crap products that don't support, adhere, or follow the Z-Wave standards. The most successful Z-Wave installs I've had is where every device was Z-Wave Plus Gen 5 supported and if you're using the dollar store versions good luck.

The biggest advancement for everyone is if and when the ISY Series Controller supports both Z-Wave Plus & Gen 5.

Even than it won't eliminate the insane steps of excluding, including, heal, heal again, do another heal, blah, blah, blah . . .

LOL . . .

 

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2 hours ago, Teken said:

But, but, but, Z-Wave is so much better and superior than Insteon . . . :? :-D

Every one of these DIY protocols requires an investment of time, resources, and finances, period. I've stated this one comment more than hundred times and some thought I was exaggerating. That was many of the Z-Wave installs I completed needed no less than 4 ~ 10 repeaters scattered around the home just to make a lock operate reliably and consistently!!

Imagine explaining to the wife why it is you need to install ten plus sirens through out your home?!?!

If that doesn't get you in the dog house in terms of a waste of finances I don't know what will.

As has been affirmed in this thread alone multiple repeaters are required to make a solid Z-Wave mesh operate. Doesn't help the entire Z-Wave protocol is a utter fail because routing to nodes is from the 80's. Next, is the endless crap products that don't support, adhere, or follow the Z-Wave standards. The most successful Z-Wave installs I've had is where every device was Z-Wave Plus Gen 5 supported and if you're using the dollar store versions good luck.

The biggest advancement for everyone is if and when the ISY Series Controller supports both Z-Wave Plus & Gen 5.

Even than it won't eliminate the insane steps of excluding, including, heal, heal again, do another heal, blah, blah, blah . . .

LOL . . .

 

Stop this Teken. I miss debating with you. I with you all the way. This applies to any automation though. The DYIs generally want to do things as cheap as possible rather than do it right. Many times they will spend more time troubleshooting issues rather invest in the proper (and proper amount) of devices. In the end, they still need to purchase more devices. Automation is not for the cheap at heart. 

I don't like wall worts so i avoid them as much as possible. This is why I use outlets and have more than I probably need. However, I did not want to run into issues with controlling anything zwave. 

Most importantly however is following the advice given. It always trips me out when i see people ask for help, it's given, and then they do the opposite. 

I'll probably swap out my test isy for a Gen5 ISY when it comes out but I don't feel like redoing my house system. If it's out and i ever build another home I'd put it in then.  Personally, I'd rather them wait and do the 700 series so that it's future proofed with upcoming capabilities as they are released

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I found that one Z-Wave range extender was adequate to ensure communication with my Schlage locks. I later added a second range extender just because that's what I do. Probably, the only way to avoid the wal wart range extender is to use lots of line powered Z-Wave devices, but I like Insteon too much for that. Plus there's no replacement for KPLs not the FanLinc.

OTOH, I did add a couple of Z-Wave door bells.

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On 2/18/2018 at 6:10 PM, Irakandjii said:

This sounds like a time out issue.  It might be that with 4 locks you randomly block a lock from time to time.  Time out failures would explain the random lock that fails, as well as the random nature of the failure.

This is an "educated guess" based on very little information, but a lot or experience.  To test this theory break up your scene into say 2 chunks of 2, or if possible put a wait between each query.  I do not remember the allowed time for a lock to wake up to  sense the beam.. but I think it is a second or more.   SO to be sure, wait say 5 seconds between queries, then if the problem stops work backwards towards 0.

I trust this helps

 

Well I tried writing a program with a adjustable wait between every "lock" command. I tried WAIT delays between 1 second and 30 seconds. It might have helped a little bit, but not enough to give me any level of confidence in locking my house using Z-Wave. About 90% of the time one of the lock commands failed with the message "Cannot communicate..." It seemed to be random which lock failed. 

One interesting item - I have some logic that disarms the home alarm system when certain user codes are used to open a door lock. This logic has never failed in almost a year of use. So this leads me to believe that if the lock is awake (because someone is actively using the keypad), then the Z-Wave communications is solid. BUT if the locks are asleep things go bad. So my conclusion is that this is a batter-powered device awake-up issue - either with the locks or the repeaters. Anyone have experience consistently waking up battery operated devices in Z-Wave?

Just in case this is somehow related to the pairing of the repeaters,  next task is to follow Irakandjii's guidance and rebuild my network extenders quadrant by quadrant. I'm not planning to move the locks though...

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I have added another reference document for Z-wave networks it is older but more detailed than the honeywell document.

I cannot find any specific references for the timing interval on lock "wake-up"  I have seen 250msec (1/4 sec) to 1 sec.  so the delays you used should have eliminated "collisions" and timeouts.

It is clear that you must have a beaming device as the first point of contact for the door lock in its contact with the mesh network topology.  Because of your distance from the lock, this implies that if you initiate inclusion near to the ISY you almost certainly violate this rule.  Something I had not really thought about before.  So because of your distance, you may need to include the door lock last... which is different from commonly accepted practice with locks.   Hence I have included the attached pdf because it gives a lot of detail on setting up the mesh.

Remember with the schlage you have to exclude and reset .. 

I hope this helps

Z-Wave Technical Information.pdf

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4 hours ago, PLCGuy said:

Well I tried writing a program with a adjustable wait between every "lock" command. I tried WAIT delays between 1 second and 30 seconds. It might have helped a little bit, but not enough to give me any level of confidence in locking my house using Z-Wave. About 90% of the time one of the lock commands failed with the message "Cannot communicate..." It seemed to be random which lock failed. 

One interesting item - I have some logic that disarms the home alarm system when certain user codes are used to open a door lock. This logic has never failed in almost a year of use. So this leads me to believe that if the lock is awake (because someone is actively using the keypad), then the Z-Wave communications is solid. BUT if the locks are asleep things go bad. So my conclusion is that this is a batter-powered device awake-up issue - either with the locks or the repeaters. Anyone have experience consistently waking up battery operated devices in Z-Wave?

Just in case this is somehow related to the pairing of the repeaters,  next task is to follow Irakandjii's guidance and rebuild my network extenders quadrant by quadrant. I'm not planning to move the locks though...

I have 3 Yale locks and have not had any issues with communication with any of them. They all lock/unlock on command without any error messages. 

The same applies to schlage and kwikset as well. I've seen both brands used in homes with multiple locks without issue. The only constant is that all had repeaters throughout so the network was never in question.

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1 hour ago, Irakandjii said:

I cannot find any specific references for the timing interval on lock "wake-up"  I have seen 250msec (1/4 sec) to 1 sec.  so the delays you used should have eliminated "collisions" and timeouts.

Usually, zwave battery operated devices wake up every second, so "beaming" should run for slightly more than a second to make sure to catch the device awake. 

http://z-wave.sigmadesigns.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Z-Wave-FLiRS.pdf

Here's a packet trace for my lock being woken up by the controller:
2016-07-26T08:11:19.669921 55 11  -46  3   Beaming frame (RSSI -46)

....... (250 frames)

2016-07-26T08:11:20.814066 55 11  -46  0   Beaming frame
2016-07-26T08:11:20.822043 xxxxxxxx 13 11 (20) 410c 9880bf2130dccf41e0af75  -45  3 Controller sends encrypted payload (CC 0x98, RSSI -45)
2016-07-26T08:11:20.827930 xxxxxxxx 11 13 (10) 030c 82  -90  5                                            Lock acknowledges (RSSI -90)

xxxx  - my home id

13 - controller (secondary) node id

11 - lock node id

There are a bunch of beaming packets (hex 0x55) being sent for about 1sec plus 18 ms.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Irakandjii said:

I have added another reference document for Z-wave networks it is older but more detailed than the honeywell document.

I cannot find any specific references for the timing interval on lock "wake-up"  I have seen 250msec (1/4 sec) to 1 sec.  so the delays you used should have eliminated "collisions" and timeouts.

It is clear that you must have a beaming device as the first point of contact for the door lock in its contact with the mesh network topology.  Because of your distance from the lock, this implies that if you initiate inclusion near to the ISY you almost certainly violate this rule.  Something I had not really thought about before.  So because of your distance, you may need to include the door lock last... which is different from commonly accepted practice with locks.   Hence I have included the attached pdf because it gives a lot of detail on setting up the mesh.

Remember with the schlage you have to exclude and reset .. 

I hope this helps

Z-Wave Technical Information.pdf

Only the devices close to the lock need to support secure beaming. Once you run a network heal and all devices become aware of one another, then the best route shall be chosen automatically. The key is network network network. It cannot be stressed enough. The people who try to accomplish automation with as little as possible are the only ones with communication issues. Those with full networks don't. 

You spend more time troubleshooting trying to solve the problem when the solution is in front of you. In the end invest in some repeaters, add them to your network and run a heal. It may take some moving devices around (Stusviews had a perfect example) but in the end a strong network will be worth the time and investment.

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I have several programs that sequentially lock all three Schlage locks on various schedules (2 deadbolts, 1 lever) with no delays/waits between program statements. Like lilyoyo1, all run successfully, no error messages. Even the two programs that unlock both the lever and deadbolt. They, too, are trouble-free. And yes, I do have repeaters.

Too, I don't see anything that pertains specifically to locks in the .pdf linked to.

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Many Z-Wave devices require that they be excluded first, then added. I usually exclude a device twice. Try that.

BTW, I had success by tapping the set button on the Aeotec Siren twice, rapidly, not once as stated in the instructions.

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