Polglot V2 CAO Wireless Tags Nodeserver

[larryllix]

8 hours ago, Bumbershoot said:

Hi Larry,
The Wireless Tag nodeserver does indeed use the "URL Calling" method, with possibly no cloud access necessary.  See the screenshot (the IP address is the address of my Polisy, a private, non routeable address).
These URLs were established by the nodeserver during setup, not by me.  The cloud is clearly part of the initial setup, as these instructions are accessed through the cloud interface to the tags, and somehow the Tag Manager must access that data to know the actual URL to post data changes.  I don't know if these addresses are maintained in a table local to the Tag Manager, or if it needs to fetch them every time from the cloud.  I've never set up Wireshark to sniff this data. 
It looks like the Tag Manager could send this data directly to Polyglot, no cloud necessary for local data changes.
I hope I'm not misunderstanding...
EDIT: this jogged my memory.  Earlier in this thread it was discovered that the Tag Manager does indeed query the mother ship (cloud) to present data, even with the "URL Calling" method.  I'll bet that if there was a local only version, then CAO would market it as a "Tag Manager PRO" with a paid maintenance agreement attached!
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I think it is an unrevealed secret and we need to assign ulrick65 to continue his sleuthing. After all he started it.

I have never been concerned with this except my Tags went down for almost a full day back a few months ago...out of about 4 years though.
Also my kumoapps have been stopped about 3 to 4 times now, likely when CAO rebuilt servers and I didn't know about it. Each time a simple 'start' fixed it.

Sent using Tapatalk
 

[LarryCRetired]

Jimbo

Sorry about getting back to you so late.  Out yesterday.

I checked the config on the ISY and it lists the same address as my pi.

I have a couple of things going on.  Could these be causing the unmanagered in the dashboard.

When I first loaded Polyglot on my Pi, I never did get an unmanaged for my Portal and still don't get that message.  Figuring the Node 1 was reserved for it,  I put the wireless tags on Node 2.

Second, I have three programs running on the Pi, that with request commands, updates state variable in the ISY if conditions are met with barometric pressure and temperature.  Also, I have a request command that retrieves the value of a state variable from the ISY.

My ISY is being updated with the data from the tags with a query every morning.  So that part is working.

Thanks for the time you are taking with me.  Much appreciated.

[ulrick65]

On 1/20/2020 at 3:30 PM, larryllix said:

 

I think it is an unrevealed secret and we need to assign ulrick65 to continue his sleuthing. After all he started it. 73.79 kB · 0 downloads

I have never been concerned with this except my Tags went down for almost a full day back a few months ago...out of about 4 years though. 73.79 kB · 0 downloads
Also my kumoapps have been stopped about 3 to 4 times now, likely when CAO rebuilt servers and I didn't know about it. Each time a simple 'start' fixed it. 73.79 kB · 0 downloads

Sent using Tapatalk 73.79 kB · 0 downloads
 

I  will definitely play around with it...right now I am having an issue with the calibration of these things.  I have 3 of them right around my brand new Thermostat and they all read different by up to 4  or 5 degrees sometimes.  I have a couple other "light duty" projects on the go right now while I am recovering from a recent neck fusion surgery...so it will be a bit  before I get to setting these up and I have to figure out why they are so off first...

Thanks.

[Jimbo.Automates]

Jimbo
Sorry about getting back to you so late.  Out yesterday.
I checked the config on the ISY and it lists the same address as my pi.
I have a couple of things going on.  Could these be causing the unmanagered in the dashboard.
When I first loaded Polyglot on my Pi, I never did get an unmanaged for my Portal and still don't get that message.  Figuring the Node 1 was reserved for it,  I put the wireless tags on Node 2.
Second, I have three programs running on the Pi, that with request commands, updates state variable in the ISY if conditions are met with barometric pressure and temperature.  Also, I have a request command that retrieves the value of a state variable from the ISY.
My ISY is being updated with the data from the tags with a query every morning.  So that part is working.
Thanks for the time you are taking with me.  Much appreciated.

No worries, I can't always respond right away either. I'm not sure why it would show unmanaged, can you go to the log page for wireless tags in the Polyglot UI and download log package and PM the to me? Maybe @einstein.42 knows another reason it shows unmanaged.

Also, you shouldn't have to query the tags each morning, they should be constantly updating?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[larryllix]

4 minutes ago, ulrick65 said:

I  will definitely play around with it...right now I am having an issue with the calibration of these things.  I have 3 of them right around my brand new Thermostat and they all read different by up to 4  or 5 degrees sometimes.  I have a couple other "light duty" projects on the go right now while I am recovering from a recent neck fusion surgery...so it will be a bit  before I get to setting these up and I have to figure out why they are so off first...

Thanks.

I was kidding of course but do appreciate your investigation.

Temperature calibration can be a touchy technique as different devices have different response times and curves as well as air temperatures vary greatly form touching the wall to 1" off the wall. I discovered this using 6 Tags mounted beside my ecobee and other brand, thermostats.

A not even detectable breeze in the room can affect a sensor 1" from the wall surface while a sensor in contact with the wall surface may not even be affected. I could see the effects of my central air handler moving air, without any outlets within 20' of the sensor stack. I could see the outer Tags being affected sooner than the inner units.

I found not to mount any sensor above a smart thermostat as the electronics can affect the reading by several degrees. good thermostats take great efforts to isolate their sensors from the electronics heat. Height in the room affects the readings, depending on the temperatures on the outside of the box. If your attic is hot and your basement is cold the temperature gradient can be 10-20 degrees over the 8 foot ceiling height.

Have fun!

[ulrick65]

Thanks for the feedback...it doesn't seem like they are working correctly to me though.  Example is right now,  my brand new Venstar says it's 73, it is on an inside.  I have the tag sitting on top of a non functional glass break detector about 2' to the right of the stat...standing up and leaning on the wall.  The raw temperature for the tag shows 63.5 right now.  I am going to calibrate to 73 (10 degrees off!) and see how it tracks from there I guess.  According to the manuals that I read, these things should be within a couple of degrees raw temp out of the box.

Thanks.

[Bumbershoot]

52 minutes ago, ulrick65 said:

I am going to calibrate to 73 (10 degrees off!) and see how it tracks from there I guess.  According to the manuals that I read, these things should be within a couple of degrees raw temp out of the box.

Wow, that's bad.  I happen to have three PIR motion sensors sitting within a foot of one another (I'm going to deploy for another application since I replaced their application with cameras).  I read your post and thought to update them.  They're all currently withing 1.1degree F of one another, which, for my purposes, is acceptable.

EDIT: I just placed one of them right next to a Venstar remote temp sensor, and I'll watch to see how they compare.  Right now, the Venstar sensor reads 72 and the PIR tag reads 73.1.  Neither of these devices has been calibrated -- both using factory settings.

[ulrick65]

5 minutes ago, Bumbershoot said:

Wow, that's bad.  I happen to have three PIR motion sensors sitting within a foot of one another (I'm going to deploy for another application since I replaced their application with cameras).  I read your post and thought to update them.  They're all currently withing 1.1degree F of one another, which, for my purposes, is acceptable.

EDIT: I just placed one of them right next to a Venstar remote temp sensor, and I'll watch to see how they compare.  Right now, the Venstar sensor reads 72 and the PIR tag reads 73.1.  Neither of these devices has been calibrated -- both using factory settings.

 

Yea,  that it close enough to what I would expect.  Perhaps I have a bad sensor or two.  Need to do a little more testing, taking Larry's comments into consideration.  However, I have had 3 of them sitting on the table in my office and be off by 4 degrees from each other...no air movement or anything, just sitting there on the cabinet in the corner.

[Bumbershoot]

1 minute ago, ulrick65 said:

 

Yea,  that it close enough to what I would expect.  Perhaps I have a bad sensor or two.  Need to do a little more testing, taking Larry's comments into consideration.  However, I have had 3 of them sitting on the table in my office and be off by 4 degrees from each other...no air movement or anything, just sitting there on the cabinet in the corner.

You might need to update them from their website (or query them in a program or the AC) to get the latest values. I have a few of their products and I force an update when I’m looking for current data.  I query them, then wait a few seconds for the data to update prior to using it.

[larryllix]

21 minutes ago, ulrick65 said:

 

Yea,  that it close enough to what I would expect.  Perhaps I have a bad sensor or two.  Need to do a little more testing, taking Larry's comments into consideration.  However, I have had 3 of them sitting on the table in my office and be off by 4 degrees from each other...no air movement or anything, just sitting there on the cabinet in the corner.

Very strange for those Tags. I calibrated some of mine but most were within a degree C of each other. From having them over a few years when they get loose from their applications I sometimes compare them against each other again. I figure they may wander up to about 1C against each other.

Careful with the reading on any thermostat. They try to fudge the sensor readings to force early or long cycling for the HVAC equipment and unfortunately the resultant fudge shows on the screen. You may see your Venstar jump up and down by a few degrees when HVAC is running or stopped. I have not seen any brand yet that displays the actual sensed temperature on the front. You pick contact closed or open to be accurate and the other state is off calibration.  

[larryllix]

5 minutes ago, Bumbershoot said:

You might need to update them from their website (or query them in a program or the AC) to get the latest values. I have a few of their products and I force an update when I’m looking for current data.  I query them, then wait a few seconds for the data to update prior to using it.

...and if you stand in front of them or your thermostat you can expect to see a rise in humidity and temperature within seconds from your breath.

[Bumbershoot]

8 hours ago, Bumbershoot said:

Right now, the Venstar sensor reads 72 and the PIR tag reads 73.1.

Eight hours later: Wireless tag is reading 69.8°F and the Venstar wireless sensor is reading 69°F.  In fact, all three PIRs are still in the same room and they're reading within 1.6°F of each other, and the humidity readings are identical at 32%.  I did some similar tests when I first deployed these, and the results were adequate for the purposes I intended, such as freezer, attic and bathroom monitoring.

I'd be curious to know if anyone is using these to control their Nest thermostats.

[Bumbershoot]

If anyone wants to make use of the "Last Update Time" value that this nodeserver provides, it can be useful to get a properly formatted UNIX epoch time into your ISY so you can run comparisons.  It's pretty easily done with your Polisy.

Step 1: create a shell script (I just use the 'admin' account home directory for this).  I called it 'epochTimeISY.sh'.  Here are the contents of the file:

#!/usr/local/bin/bash
curl -u ISY_USER:ISY_PASSWORD http://192.168.x.x/rest/vars/set/2/14/`date -j -f "%a %b %d %T %Z %Y" "\`date\`" "+%s"`

I'm setting a STATE variable (variable #14) to receive the value from the Polisy ('set/2/14/' sets STATE variable #14 to the date value that follows).

Step 2: I made the file executable:

chmod +x epochTimeISY.sh

Step 3:  Create a cron job on the Polisy that runs the file 'epochTimeISY.sh' (the command 'crontab -e' will start the 'vi' editor for an new crontab entry for the user 'admin').  I run the cron every minute, so this is what is inserted into crontab with the editor:

*/1 * * * * /home/admin/epochTimeISY.sh 2&>1 /dev/null

Save the crontab and watch the variable in your ISY get updated every minute.

As always, be careful not to create tight loops when writing programs using this sort of data:

Epoch - [ID 010A][Parent 00DF]

If
        'Devices / dirNodeServers / WirelessTags / Home / MasterBathMotionDetector' Last Update Time < '$s.EpochTime Raw'
        
        // This program will run in a tight loop without the "Wait" in the "Then" stanza
 
 
Then
        Wait  30 seconds
        Set 'Devices / dirNodeServers / WirelessTags / Home / MasterBathMotionDetector' Query
 
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

[ulrick65]

3 hours ago, Bumbershoot said:

Eight hours later: Wireless tag is reading 69.8°F and the Venstar wireless sensor is reading 69°F.  In fact, all three PIRs are still in the same room and they're reading within 1.6°F of each other, and the humidity readings are identical at 32%.  I did some similar tests when I first deployed these, and the results were adequate for the purposes I intended, such as freezer, attic and bathroom monitoring.

I'd be curious to know if anyone is using these to control their Nest thermostats.

I think I just have bad couple sensors.  I have more that I have not opened yet (don't want to start killing batteries sitting on my cabinet in the office).  Maybe I better take a couple out and take a day and do some testing, so I can return any that are not behaving.  I have a couple of the newer ones (by the way, hard as hell to tell which one you have in your hand...they all look the same!).

I don't expect better than 1 to 2 degrees, but when the environment is virtually the same...I sure don't expect 4 to 5+ and since you guys are getting a lot better results, I suspect just a bad sensor or two here.

Funny thing about temperature is that it is damn hard to actually get a highly calibrated and accurate reading...I have spent my career in Industrial Maintenance and Engineering...calibrating temperature probes is not an easy task if you are looking for real accurate readings.  The best you hope for is accurate tracking through some range.

 

[Bumbershoot]

7 minutes ago, ulrick65 said:

I don't expect better than 1 to 2 degrees, but when the environment is virtually the same...I sure don't expect 4 to 5+ and since you guys are getting a lot better results, I suspect just a bad sensor or two here.

I just make sure I force an update (query) when I'm looking for recent data.  The data generally passes a sniff test after I do that.  I'd be curious to know if they wander out of bounds much after you get them calibrated.  My experience has been pretty good.

[LarryCRetired]

Jimbo

I went back and reloaded a previous backup of my Pi's SD card that did not contain Polyglot.  After reinstalling Polyglot, then deleting the Wireless tags from the ISY, and reloading the wireless tags, everything seems to be working ok this afternoon. 

Unfortunately, I could not send you a log earlier because I did not have access to any details with the dashboard's unmanaged screen.

Thanks for all you help and ideas.  What I should have done before asking the forum was reinstalling everything.  I guess the reason I did not do that first was because everything seemed to load correctly when i first installed everything.   Hopefully things will be fine from here on out. 

Thanks again

[larryllix]

3 hours ago, ulrick65 said:

I think I just have bad couple sensors.  I have more that I have not opened yet (don't want to start killing batteries sitting on my cabinet in the office).  Maybe I better take a couple out and take a day and do some testing, so I can return any that are not behaving.  I have a couple of the newer ones (by the way, hard as hell to tell which one you have in your hand...they all look the same!).

I don't expect better than 1 to 2 degrees, but when the environment is virtually the same...I sure don't expect 4 to 5+ and since you guys are getting a lot better results, I suspect just a bad sensor or two here.

Funny thing about temperature is that it is damn hard to actually get a highly calibrated and accurate reading...I have spent my career in Industrial Maintenance and Engineering...calibrating temperature probes is not an easy task if you are looking for real accurate readings.  The best you hope for is accurate tracking through some range.

 

Then they are in good hands with your expertise! I spent 34 years calibrating revenue metering, and electrical grid protection systems. Inaccuracy makes us lose sleep!  

[Bumbershoot]

On 1/23/2020 at 5:10 AM, Bumbershoot said:

Eight hours later: Wireless tag is reading 69.8°F and the Venstar wireless sensor is reading 69°F.  In fact, all three PIRs are still in the same room and they're reading within 1.6°F of each other, and the humidity readings are identical at 32%.  I did some similar tests when I first deployed these, and the results were adequate for the purposes I intended, such as freezer, attic and bathroom monitoring.

I'd be curious to know if anyone is using these to control their Nest thermostats.

24 hours later, the Wireless Tag is reading 72.4°F and the Venstar wireless sensor is reading 72°F.

[larryllix]

5 hours ago, Bumbershoot said:

24 hours later, the Wireless Tag is reading 72.4°F and the Venstar wireless sensor is reading 72°F.

That means the Venstar is actually sensing 71.5F to 72.9F. Unless the rounding/truncation method is determined, it takes more waiting for changes to know when it switches to 71 or 73F.

I found I can not tolerate thermostats that sense and use 0.5 degree resolutions. If I set the temperature at 72 degrees F, the stat may use this as the bottom temperature for the HVAC call or the average temperature. Assuming it uses the setpoint as the lowest temperature and senses by 0.5 degree resolution the temperature can go as low as 71.25 degrees before indicating 71.5 and calls for  HVAC heat.

ecobee uses 0.1C sensing resolution but never reveals anything finer than 0.5c. Their log spreadsheets reveal the 0.1c increments.

I am very sensitive to heat changes and cannot tolerate the 2-3c temperature swings/heat waves most stats give using a slow response HVAC system like mine.

[ulrick65]

On 1/23/2020 at 3:56 PM, larryllix said:

Then they are in good hands with your expertise! I spent 34 years calibrating revenue metering, and electrical grid protection systems. Inaccuracy makes us lose sleep!  

Well, I sure hope you were accurate with those! ? 

[ulrick65]

Does anyone know of a way to figure out what model tag each one is?  I bought a few different models and they all look exactly the same...I read about you guys talking about tag types, but I am not sure if there is a list somewhere of them so I can look at the tag type in ISY and then figure out what model it is maybe?

Seems like somewhere in the app it you could look at the particular tag and it would tell you what it is?  I can't find it if it's there...

Thanks.

[Jimbo.Automates]

Does anyone know of a way to figure out what model tag each one is?  I bought a few different models and they all look exactly the same...I read about you guys talking about tag types, but I am not sure if there is a list somewhere of them so I can look at the tag type in ISY and then figure out what model it is maybe?
Seems like somewhere in the app it you could look at the particular tag and it would tell you what it is?  I can't find it if it's there...
Thanks.

Select one in the admin console and above the right lane it shows the model, I think?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[Bumbershoot]

11 hours ago, ulrick65 said:

Does anyone know of a way to figure out what model tag each one is? 

Have a look here: https://github.com/jimboca/udi-wirelesstag-poly/blob/master/README.md#tags

In the nodeserver, there's a "Tag Type" field with numeric data that will match what's in this table. with a couple of exceptions  -- tag types 102 and 107 are not documented here.

 

[ulrick65]

4 hours ago, Bumbershoot said:

Have a look here: https://github.com/jimboca/udi-wirelesstag-poly/blob/master/README.md#tags

In the nodeserver, there's a "Tag Type" field with numeric data that will match what's in this table. with a couple of exceptions  -- tag types 102 and 107 are not documented here.

 

Thanks!  I knew I had seen something like this before, but I searched all over the wireless tag website for it...but didn't think to check there!

Any idea what tags 102 and 107 are?

Thanks.

[Bumbershoot]

1 hour ago, ulrick65 said:

Any idea what tags 102 and 107 are?