Uber ~ Automated Driving Death

[mitchmitchell]

Each of you reading this will eventually (either due to illness or age) be unable to drive a vehicle one day. Self driving cars will be a huge boon to an aging population living longer due to improved nutrition and healthcare.

 

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[apostolakisl]

It would seem from the news that the woman "abruptly stepped in front of the car".  The current prediction is that the woman will be asigned blame, not the uber car.

Teken appears to be holding the self-driving car to the standard of "any bad outcome is its failure".  There will be bad outcomes no matter how perfectly anyone/thing drives because of the simple fact of momentum.  A vehicle can only change vector as fast as the tire to pavement friction allows.  My bet is that uber car reacted faster than a human could have, but the physics just weren't in its favor.

I am personally aware of two fatal accidents within a few miles of my house in the past year.  In one, a woman was blinded by the sun as she pulled off into the shoulder to make a right hand turn and ran over a cyclist.  A self-drving car would of course not done that, they have sonar (not to mention the computer woulnd't have used the shoulder as a right turn lane).  The other is an older man who had a stroke or heart attack or something to that affect and he went off the road and into an "immovable object" as the news called it.  Again, self-driving car would not have done that.

Personally, I look forward to self-driving cars and have no doubt that while they may not always result in the best possible outcome as measured in hind-sight,  they will certainly do better than humans (on the whole) by an order of magnitude or more.  For every situaton that a human manages better, there will probably be 100 that the computer does better.

[oberkc]

2 hours ago, mitchmitchell said:

Each of you reading this will eventually (either due to illness or age) be unable to drive a vehicle one day. Self driving cars will be a huge boon to an aging population living longer due to improved nutrition and healthcare.

 

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Exactly! (Not me, of course)

[Teken]

5 hours ago, oberkc said:

One (perhaps THE) major obstacle for pilotless planes is that FAR rules are written based upon someone being onboard.  The regulations do not support it at this point, so flights by pilotless planes cannot legally be routine.  I would not be surprised that the same is true for ground vehicles.

I suspect pilotless planes will be initially employed in great numbers by cargo carriers.  I predict the same will be true for road vehicles (think trucks and commercial use).  

Once the performance of these vehicles is demonstrated and we have higher levels of general confidence, the rest will follow.  There is too much to gain not to pursue it.

Did anyone else see that Cadillac is introducing a car able to self-drive on the highways, coming in 2019?  Add that to tesla vehicles.  It is coming.  Resistance is futile.

2 hours ago, oberkc said:

Exactly! (Not me, of course)

I've said this a few times over the years but it serves to say it again. Like my partner in crime lilyoyo1 I do enjoy the levity and insight you bring and counter points. Very few people in my life time have changed my view on things which I feel are important. Even if I don't change my position I at least consider what the feedback is and file it for *Please Consider*.  Also, not to exclude anyone else who had a counter point or position.

I have read all of the replies and greatly appreciate the time you have shared along with the insight given.

[mitchmitchell]

I've said this a few times over the years but it serves to say it again. Like my partner in crime lilyoyo1 I do enjoy the levity and insight you bring and counter points. Very few people in my life time have changed my view on things which I feel are important. Even if I don't change my position I at least consider what the feedback is and file it for *Please Consider*.  Also, not to exclude anyone else who had a counter point or position.
I have read all of the replies and greatly appreciate the time you have shared along with the insight given.

Always fun discussing future tech stuff with you folks. Just remember that if you live long enough that a robot will be changing your diapers in the old folks home!

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[Goose66]

3 minutes ago, mitchmitchell said:

Always fun discussing future tech stuff with you folks. Just remember that if you live long enough that a robot will be changing your diapers in the old folks home!

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I won't be in the old folks home because I will have thousands of tiny intelligent robots floating around in my blood stream repairing my cells.

[Goose66]

22 hours ago, Teken said:

Regardless of that fact alone there isn't a soul that would place a infant child on a plane with out a human being at the helm.

Late to this argument but my answer is no, because a system failure, no matter how minor, would likely result in the passengers' death. However, a minor or even substantial failure in a driverless vehicle would in many if not most instances result with you being left stranded on the side of the road. You are comparing apples and oranges, because the cost of the backup pilot per passenger is much lower in an airplane and the consequences of failure are much greater. 

[Teken]

7 minutes ago, Goose66 said:

Late to this argument but my answer is no, because a system failure, no matter how minor, would likely result in the passengers' death. However, a minor or even substantial failure in a driverless vehicle would in many if not most instances result with you being left stranded on the side of the road. You are comparing apples and oranges, because the cost of the backup pilot per passenger is much lower in an airplane and the consequences of failure are much greater. 

No one and certainly I am suggesting that a failure in a airplane is inconsequential. That is one of many driving points I am trying to make and this directly relates to ground vehicles. As stated numerous times here my view is unless there is dedicated infrastructure to support said unattended / fully automated vehicles. The world poses too many risks for any one to trust these vehicles on the public roads.

I am so confident in this position that I challenge any automotive company who may read this (Yes Elon Musk ~ Calling you out / Any others too) to let me or anyone they believe could be a unbiased test subject to drive their vehicle in the dead of winter in Canada. I can assure you no matter how many sensors they have, millions of KMS, self learning, to fairy dust. Not one of these vehicles will perform in very common road conditions we see here in the cold aszz north.

All of the above simply applies to the road conditions and doesn't even address the *Human Factor*!! 

If anyone has ever watched the show *Worst Canadian Drivers* I want the members reading this reply to think about this. Where I live it makes the show the worst Canadian drivers look like aces . . .

People don't signal, cut people off, run through every color of lights, and pretend cyclists are just bonus points when seen.  

[Goose66]

Well that may be the case in Canada, but here in Southeastern U.S. it's miles and miles and miles of well marked and well mapped Interstate highways between each destination, with no snow. Perfect conditions for an automated vehicle. So we can use them down here in our mindless commutes and you can keep driving yourself around in the Great White North. Win-win!

[larryllix]

3 minutes ago, Goose66 said:

Well that may be the case in Canada, but here in Southeastern U.S. it's miles and miles and miles of well marked and well mapped Interstate highways between each destination, with no snow. Perfect conditions for an automated vehicle. So we can use them down here in our mindless commutes and you can keep driving yourself around in the Great White North. Win-win!

I do prefer the way the southern US tends to separate their highway directions with a large green space. The constant oncoming lights in your eyes in the Great White North is nasty at nights.

Strange that so many southern highways are so old and noisy though. Since the frost doesn't make potholes in them after being 4-5 years old they don't get replaced frequently and the surface tars actually wear away leaving the noisy gravel exposed. The southern heat may accelerate this also. The south also contrasts the northern states highways where really poor  design,  extremely bad markings  and lack of maintenance are very common.  This is more centred around NY, Michigan areas, where Canadian foreigners have worn them out.  

[lilyoyo1]

20 minutes ago, Teken said:

No one and certainly I am suggesting that a failure in a airplane is inconsequential. That is one of many driving points I am trying to make and this directly relates to ground vehicles. As stated numerous times here my view is unless there is dedicated infrastructure to support said unattended / fully automated vehicles. The world poses too many risks for any one to trust these vehicles on the public roads.

I am so confident in this position that I challenge any automotive company who may read this (Yes Elon Musk ~ Calling you out / Any others too) to let me or anyone they believe could be a unbiased test subject to drive their vehicle in the dead of winter in Canada. I can assure you no matter how many sensors they have, millions of KMS, self learning, to fairy dust. Not one of these vehicles will perform in very common road conditions we see here in the cold aszz north.

All of the above simply applies to the road conditions and doesn't even address the *Human Factor*!! 

If anyone has ever watched the show *Worst Canadian Drivers* I want the members reading this reply to think about this. Where I live it makes the show the worst Canadian drivers look like aces . . .

People don't signal, cut people off, run through every color of lights, and pretend cyclists are just bonus points when seen.  

Teken, all the more reason not to live there. You miss out on the good stuff. Lol

[Teken]

12 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Teken, all the more reason not to live there. You miss out on the good stuff. Lol

LOL . . .

At some point in time I have to tell you moving to a more temperate climate is in the bucket list! Just have to make sure its the dry heat!! 

[lilyoyo1]

Circling back to the original post, they did release the video of the accident. The way it occured, one would think that the sensors would've picked her up walking across the street so it looks like a failure there. Had a person been driving, they definitely would have missed her. Even with the benefit of knowing it was coming etc., I still didn't see her until it was to late.

With that said, driver or no driver, she does deserve the blame. Crossing outside of a crosswalk, wearing black and walking from the shadows is asking for trouble. The car had it's lights on. She could've easily stopped or ran across. She did neither. From the video, I can't fault anyone but her. Due to the failure of the sensors to pick her up, the system does need to be looked at and improved. 

[lilyoyo1]

5 minutes ago, Teken said:

LOL . . .

At some point in time I have to tell you moving to a more temperate climate is in the bucket list! Just have to make sure its the dry heat!! 

That's why I like going back to California in the summers......and winters. Lol

[Teken]

3 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Circling back to the original post, they did release the video of the accident. The way it occured, one would think that the sensors would've picked her up walking across the street so it looks like a failure there. Had a person been driving, they definitely would have missed her. Even with the benefit of knowing it was coming etc., I still didn't see her until it was to late.

With that said, driver or no driver, she does deserve the blame. Crossing outside of a crosswalk, wearing black and walking from the shadows is asking for trouble. The car had it's lights on. She could've easily stopped or ran across. She did neither. From the video, I can't fault anyone but her. Due to the failure of the sensors to pick her up, the system does need to be looked at and improved. 

Would you mind sharing the link to the new video? This has been a hot topic at work where others like you have the same point of view. All of them want to see me change my position but at this juncture its not in the cards. 

[Mustang65]

6 minutes ago, Teken said:

LOL . . .

At some point in time I have to tell you moving to a more temperate climate is in the bucket list! Just have to make sure its the dry heat!! 

Dry heat my...butt! I was on a business trip in LA and I decided to visit a friend who decided that we had to go to the top of this mountain. So we drove to the base of the mountain and I got out of the car and instantly started sweating, the temperature was 108 degrees "F". They had misters spraying water everywhere. Did not do anything for me. We took the tram to the top of the mountain where it was in the low 50's. That is where all the locals worked... very smart people

 

So I am going to start a robotics company that will supply R2D2's to the pilotless airlines that will serve drinks and chips to its customers. Maybe I will also restart one of  those old insurance companies that had the machines at the airports that allowed you to buy an insurance policy just before getting on the plane.. of course I would file bankruptcy when the 1st pilotless plane hit the ground or water. 

[Mustang65]

Remember when American Airlines had the (at the time) big screen TV's on the wall separating 1st class from not so  1st class. They had a camera mounted in the cockpit looking outside the front windshield and would put it on during take-off and landings. They may want to add that to the pilotless planes.

[Teken]

LOL . . . 

[asbril]

41 minutes ago, Mustang65 said:

Dry heat my...butt! I was on a business trip in LA and I decided to visit a friend who decided that we had to go to the top of this mountain. So we drove to the base of the mountain and I got out of the car and instantly started sweating, the temperature was 108 degrees "F". They had misters spraying water everywhere. Did not do anything for me. We took the tram to the top of the mountain where it was in the low 50's. That is where all the locals worked... very smart people

 

So I am going to start a robotics company that will supply R2D2's to the pilotless airlines that will serve drinks and chips to its customers. Maybe I will also restart one of  those old insurance companies that had the machines at the airports that allowed you to buy an insurance policy just before getting on the plane.. of course I would file bankruptcy when the 1st pilotless plane hit the ground or water. 

it may take 50 years but there WILL be pilotless planes......

[larryllix]

47 minutes ago, Mustang65 said:

Remember when American Airlines had the (at the time) big screen TV's on the wall separating 1st class from not so  1st class. They had a camera mounted in the cockpit looking outside the front windshield and would put it on during take-off and landings. They may want to add that to the pilotless planes.

Might help their screaming sensors to activate sooner!

[larryllix]

12 minutes ago, asbril said:

it may take 50 years but there WILL be pilotless planes......

IIRC there is a pilot program going on right now.

[lilyoyo1]

2 hours ago, Teken said:

Would you mind sharing the link to the new video? This has been a hot topic at work where others like you have the same point of view. All of them want to see me change my position but at this juncture its not in the cards. 

Here's the link. I saw it in a Yahoo article. 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/video-driver-autonomous-uber-distracted-005504917.html

[asbril]

8 hours ago, larryllix said:

IIRC there is a pilot program going on right now.

If there are drones, then there is no reason not to have pilotless fighter (or crop) planes, but I was referring to pilotless passenger planes. Those will come as well......

[Goose66]

7 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Here's the link. I saw it in a Yahoo article. 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/video-driver-autonomous-uber-distracted-005504917.html

Well, I have been among the most adamant supporter of self-driving cars but this video is pretty damning. Setting aside for the moment that the safety driver was looking down and reading something instead of focusing on the road ahead, the car should have been able to detect this woman in the road. There were no obstructions - she didn't walk out from behind a car and the it wasn't a one lane road lined with hedge rows. She didn't purposefully  run into the path of the oncoming vehicle. The sensors should have seen her and stopped the car. Could a person have avoided this accident? Maybe not. But I am very disappointed in the performance of the self-driving system here and may have to rethink my stance on how safe these things really are.

[Mustang65]

Remember that flight MH370, lets JUST say that it encountered some issue that rendered everyone unconscious. A pilotless plane may have been useful in this case