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Need KPL OFF button to have LED off. How?


madcodger

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When I initially programmed all my KPLs, I did it with Powerhome (pre ISY). There was a simple feature in that program that allowed me to turn off the LEDs on my keypad Lincs, which is what I want (Note that they're not really "off", but rather just dim - but it's much less bright than when a button is on, at least).

 

I was messing with the wiring on this KPL as part of a small renovation project in the house, and managed to get it into a state where I had to reset it manually. Now, it works fine EXCEPT the All Off button glows brightly unless I press the All On button, in which case it glows brightly.

 

How do I return things to a state where NEITHER glows brightly when everything on that KPL is off? I thought it had to do with the toggle modes, but that didn't seem to help.

 

Thanks,

 

Joe

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Hi Joe -

 

Yes, that is toggle mode. I assume this is a 6-button KPL, and you're referring to the primary ON/OFF load buttons? You want to set the load button to "non-toggle mode".

 

The ISY should eb able to do it, but if you're having an issue you can easily change this manually as well. Simply press the ON button for 10 seconds, then release, then 5 seconds, then release, then 5 more seconds. I've had some instances where I have to go through this procedure twice.

 

The KPL documentation for revs 1.5+ is here:

http://www.smarthome.com/manuals/2486d1_5.pdf

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Michel,

 

Thanks! This is a Rev 1.4 KPL, and I couldn't get the ISY to update it, but the manual procedure worked on the 3rd try. BTW, I can't get the LED brightness setting to work, even if I enter a "7" (read the threads on using only range 7 - 63). Is this b/c it's a Rev 1.4 KPL?

 

Appreciate the help and great support.

 

Joe

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I'm pretty certain the v1.4 KPLs don't allow us to programatically adjust the LED brightness. I believe they have only 2 brightness levels, which must be set manually at the switch (check the documentation).

 

Well, I'm now pretty sure you're right... And of course Smarthome wasn't so smart in their forethought about ways to improve earlier switch versions with a firmware update... I'm stuck with KPL nightlights, but at least the off switch is not blaring anymore. Thanks for your help,

 

Joe

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  • 5 months later...
Hi Joe -

 

Yes, that is toggle mode. I assume this is a 6-button KPL, and you're referring to the primary ON/OFF load buttons? You want to set the load button to "non-toggle mode".

 

The ISY should eb able to do it, but if you're having an issue you can easily change this manually as well. Simply press the ON button for 10 seconds, then release, then 5 seconds, then release, then 5 more seconds. I've had some instances where I have to go through this procedure twice.

 

The KPL documentation for revs 1.5+ is here:

http://www.smarthome.com/manuals/2486d1_5.pdf

 

Michael,

 

I have tried messing around with this function quite a bit over the months since first reading this thread and have never been able to achieve the desired results from within the ISY. I always end up going the manual route.

 

Are your sure this is possible via the ISY? And while we are on that subject. The dialog box that opens when trying to switch to non-toggle mode has launguage that is a bit confusing as it states:

 

Choose Toggle Mode:

Off for Toggle-Off

On for Toggle-On

 

When what I think it means is Choose Non-Toggle Mode, Off for Non-Toggle-Off, On for Non-Toggle-On. Or am I misunderstanding things here and that is why I can never get this Off button on a 6 button KPL to turn Off except with the manual method mentioned here?

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  • 1 year later...

So here it is almost exactly a year later. I have 3 new KPLs. Just purchased. And again I can only achieve a dark 'Off' bottom KPL button by using the manual method. Nothing I seem to do within the ISY will make this button go dark. Has anyone had success turning off the 'Off' back light using the ISY. I would be very interested in how that is done if anyone has had success with it.

 

And just to be clear, we are talking about a 6 button KPL with the KPL in the off condition. I like the bottom off button to be dark when the unit is off.

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Hi Joe -

 

Yes, that is toggle mode. I assume this is a 6-button KPL, and you're referring to the primary ON/OFF load buttons? You want to set the load button to "non-toggle mode".

 

The ISY should eb able to do it, but if you're having an issue you can easily change this manually as well. Simply press the ON button for 10 seconds, then release, then 5 seconds, then release, then 5 more seconds. I've had some instances where I have to go through this procedure twice.

 

The KPL documentation for revs 1.5+ is here:

http://www.smarthome.com/manuals/2486d1_5.pdf

 

I press the top button. Hold for 10s. Hold for 5s. Hold for 5s. Sometimes have to repeat this procedure twice. This is manually switching the button to Non-Toggle Off the first time and from that mode it switches to Non-Toggle On the next round. It should turn off the 'Off' KPL button the first round of three presses, and usually does, but I do have a switch or two that it takes the second round to work right. Maybe older switches went to Non-Toggle On first and then to Non-Toggle Off.

 

What I really want to know is how to do this from the ISY without all that button pressing. Also a pain if I have to factory reset a switch and restore as the ISY has no idea I have changed the mode of that button.

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Thanks. I'll look into the commands that are executed. The memory map for KPLs has changed a number of times making it difficult to manage things like toggle mode.

 

Just to be sure I understand, the change is also affecting the ON button as well. You are putting the load control button (ON & OFF in 6 button mode) in non-toggle ON mode. This precludes the OFF button from sending an OFF command attogether??. I've changed 8 button KPL modes but never tried it on the load control of a 6 button KPL.

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No. That is the interesting thing. The KPL works for both on and off when I am done.

 

When I have performed the button pressing round:

KPL off button (bottom large) back light is off if off button is pressed

 

KPL on button (top large) back light is off if bottom off button is pressed, on if top button is pressed.

 

Commands for both buttons work. If I press the top large on button, the back light under the on button turns on, the device turns on, and the status in the ISY updates to on. If I press the bottom button, the top large button back light turn off, the bottom large button back light does not turn on (this is the whole objective of this exercise) and the device turns off. Status in the ISY updates to off as well.

 

So kinda a weird Non-Toggle situation. I am guessing it is a special case on a 6 button KPL which is also why I cannot get it to work from within the ISY.

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Hi Illusion,

 

After turning the on/off buttons into Non Toggle Mode thru the ISY (select "Off" for Non-Toggle-Mode in the dialog box) have you tried manually pressing the top "on" button, then pressing the bottom "off" button. That seems to be when the process kicks in. The top "on" button will light when on and pressing the bottom "off" button will turn the top light out. The bottom "off" illumination stays off at all times.

 

Tim

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I do not know what I am doing wrong. That does not work for me. v.36 KPL.

 

Tim, I followed your instructions exactly, but when I am done it is like I have done nothing. The KPL still has the off button illuminated when off.

 

Further of interest: I had to put the KPL back into the normal state to start with to try your method. I first tried converting it back using the ISY and setting the switch from Non-Toggle back to toggle. This also had no effect. I had to use the manual method to return the switch to its default state just to try your instructions. It is almost like the

Toggle/Non-Toggle from within the ISY has no effect for me on the main load buttons of a 6 button KPL. It does not change my back light functions, but it also does not appear to change the functionality of the buttons either. No matter what I do, the buttons still show status of off and on in the ISY as they are pressed.

 

EDIT: Maybe I have some other issue. I am running 2.7.15 and I cannot program any Non-Toggle ON or OFF to any buttons on any of my new KPL, both 8 button and 6 button versions

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Maybe I have some other issue. I am running 2.7.15 and I cannot program any Non-Toggle ON or OFF to any buttons on any of my new KPL, both 8 button and 6 button versions

 

Perhaps something has changed between 2.7.15 and 2.8.2 I am not sure. And to be honest I don't remember at what rev my ISY was at when I first used the non toggle functions, it has been in the last 6 months or so anyway.

 

Sorry I couldn't help...but I am sure Michel or someone else will be able to help figure it out.

 

Tim

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Based on the online KeypadLinc User Guide the dedicated ON/OFF buttons cannot have the toggle mode changed ....

 

"You can change any button, except the dedicated On/Off Scene buttons, to one of three Button Modes:"

I have seen that too in the owners manual pdf. But here is a quote from Steve Lee from Smartlabs on the subject:

 

"One added tip if you want the off light on a keypad to never light up which is perfect for a bedroom would be to put the On / Off part of the keypad in non-toggle mode. Here is hou to do it. In the old keypads from over a year ago you would just push the off button once and then press and hold the set button fro three seconds then release and do it again for three seconds and release and then one more set of three seconds. Now push the On button and the one will light up but when you push the off it will not light up. In the newer keypads you will have to do this proceedure twice meaning the first time you do the 3,3,and 3 second step it will only put the keypad in non-toggle Off you will need to do the 3,3 and three one more time to put the keypad in non-toggle ON.

 

SteveL

Smarthome"

Here is the link to the quote: http://www.smarthome.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5705&SearchTerms=kpl

 

Tim

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Let me summarize, ISY should support a function the User Guide says does not work, using a forum post process from Steve Lee (really good guy from Smarthome) which is more than a year old that describes a technique which varies based on KPL revision and sometimes requires it to be done more than once as it does not always work the first time. Wow, do I love a challenge.

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Let me summarize, ISY should support a function the User Guide says does not work, using a forum post process from Steve Lee (really good guy from Smarthome) which is more than a year old that describes a technique which varies based on KPL revision and sometimes requires it to be done more than once as it does not always work the first time. Wow, do I love a challenge.

 

I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers LeeG. Sorry if it came off like I was trying. I understand and appreciate what you are saying. And I appreciate all of the help you have been with UDI, this forum and the Smarthome forum.

 

The thing is Illusion has the same rev kpl's as I do (v.36). I am able to put the bottom button in non-toggle-off mode with the ISY. He is not. So in my mind it is either a comm. issue or perhaps the rev of the ISY (his 2.7.15 mine 2.8.2).

 

I just put all 6 of my 6-button v.36 kpl's in toggle mode, one at a time, via the ISY which after each operation caused the bottom button of the corresponding kpl to illuminate.

 

Then I set each kpl top/bottom node back to non-toggle-off. The bottom buttons were still illuminated after the change. Once the On button was pressed followed by an Off button press the Off button illumination stayed off. Turning the device on then off thru the ISY admin. console worked as well to turn off the bottom buttons.

 

Surely I am not the only person who has used this function in the ISY and has it working.

 

Illusion, when you change from toggle to non-toggle do you get an operation hour glass pop up for a second or two indicating the ISY is performing the change? Also does your event viewer show any activity?

 

Offered as a comparison this is the log from the viewer when putting the on/off node in non-toggle-off mode:

 

Thu 09/30/2010 05:36:19 AM : [16 71 CD 1  ] Memory : Write dbAddr=0x0249 [C3]

Thu 09/30/2010 05:36:19 AM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 16.71.CD 1F 2E 00 01 08 C3 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 06        (00)

Thu 09/30/2010 05:36:20 AM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 16.71.CD 11.DD.F9 23 2E 00           (00)

Thu 09/30/2010 05:36:20 AM : [standard-Direct Ack][16.71.CD-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=0

This is the log when putting the same node back to toggle mode:

 

Thu 09/30/2010 05:39:40 AM : [16 71 CD 1  ] Memory : Write dbAddr=0x0249 [00]

Thu 09/30/2010 05:39:40 AM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 16.71.CD 1F 2E 00 01 08 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 06        (00)

Thu 09/30/2010 05:39:40 AM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 16.71.CD 11.DD.F9 23 2E 00           (00)

Thu 09/30/2010 05:39:40 AM : [standard-Direct Ack][16.71.CD-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=0

 

Tim

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Tim,

 

You did not. I will have to pay more attention to my phrasing as that post was meant as a catch up and be humorous at the same time. Was out of town most of the day, scanned the UDI posts as well as the SH post when I got back and was trying to summarize what I thought had been determined to that point. I really enjoy working a problem and finding answers.

 

In this case it looks like you have already done all the analysis. The Event Viewer trace shows the ISY is using the latest 2E Extended Set command to set the option. This is the latest and best technique. It works on all your v36 KPLs. Now it is a matter of figuring out why it does not work for Illusion. Could be a change that was implemented going into the 2.8.x images or something specific to Illusions powerline environment but I would think there would be more issues visible if that.

 

Illusion,

 

Can you run the Event Viewer trace Change level 3 that Tim ran while setting the ON/OFF node to non-toggle Off mode so we can compare what ISY is issuing at 2.7.15 versus 2.8.2. Also cycling the On and Off buttons appears to be a necessary action to get the Off button LED Off.

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Illusion,

 

Sorry for the slow response. The last two days have been hectic.

 

I was successful in reproducing Tim's result. 6 button KPL, v36, ISY 2.8.2. Setting the On/Off node to non-toggle Off mode, cycling the ON/Off button once leaves the OFF button with no LED illumination when OFF.

 

Lee

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Okay here it is along with other data points that may provided hints as to my issues

 

1: Log of attempting to put 6 button KPL main button into non-toggle off via the ISY:

 

Fri 10/01/2010 03:26:30 PM : [15 9A FF 1  ] Memory : Write dbAddr=0x0252 [04]

Fri 10/01/2010 03:26:30 PM : [15 9A FF 1  ] Using engine version i1 for 'HVAC KPL'

Fri 10/01/2010 03:26:30 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 15.9A.FF 0F 28 02 06          SET-MSB(02)

Fri 10/01/2010 03:26:31 PM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 15.9A.FF 0C.A6.33 2B 28 02    SET-MSB(02)

Fri 10/01/2010 03:26:31 PM : [standard-Direct Ack][15.9A.FF-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Fri 10/01/2010 03:26:31 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 15.9A.FF 0F 2B 52 06          PEEK   (52)

Fri 10/01/2010 03:26:31 PM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 15.9A.FF 0C.A6.33 2B 2B C6    PEEK   (C6)

Fri 10/01/2010 03:26:31 PM : [standard-Direct Ack][15.9A.FF-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Fri 10/01/2010 03:26:31 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 15.9A.FF 0F 29 04 06          POKE   (04)

Fri 10/01/2010 03:26:32 PM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 15.9A.FF 0C.A6.33 2B 29 04    POKE   (04)

Fri 10/01/2010 03:26:32 PM : [standard-Direct Ack][15.9A.FF-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Fri 10/01/2010 03:26:32 PM : [15 9A FF 1  ] Memory : Write dbAddr=0x0249 [C7]

Fri 10/01/2010 03:26:32 PM : [15 9A FF 1  ] Using engine version i1 for 'HVAC KPL'

Fri 10/01/2010 03:26:32 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 15.9A.FF 0F 28 02 06          SET-MSB(02)

Fri 10/01/2010 03:26:32 PM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 15.9A.FF 0C.A6.33 2B 28 02    SET-MSB(02)

Fri 10/01/2010 03:26:32 PM : [standard-Direct Ack][15.9A.FF-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Fri 10/01/2010 03:26:32 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 15.9A.FF 0F 2B 49 06          PEEK   (49)

Fri 10/01/2010 03:26:33 PM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 15.9A.FF 0C.A6.33 2B 2B 04    PEEK   (04)

Fri 10/01/2010 03:26:33 PM : [standard-Direct Ack][15.9A.FF-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Fri 10/01/2010 03:26:33 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 15.9A.FF 0F 29 C7 06          POKE   (C7)

Fri 10/01/2010 03:26:33 PM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 15.9A.FF 0C.A6.33 2B 29 C7    POKE   (C7)

Fri 10/01/2010 03:26:33 PM : [standard-Direct Ack][15.9A.FF-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Fri 10/01/2010 03:26:33 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 15.9A.FF 0F 24 00 06                 (00)

Fri 10/01/2010 03:26:34 PM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 15.9A.FF 0C.A6.33 2B 24 00           (00)

Fri 10/01/2010 03:26:34 PM : [standard-Direct Ack][15.9A.FF-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Fri 10/01/2010 03:26:34 PM : [15 9A FF 1  ] Memory : EPROM Refreshed

 

2: Code of trying to put a standard secondary button on a different v.36 (8 button) into non-toggle on via the ISY (also a failure):

 

Fri 10/01/2010 03:29:12 PM : [16 77 E7 1  ] Memory : Write dbAddr=0x0252 [22]

Fri 10/01/2010 03:29:12 PM : [16 77 E7 1  ] Using engine version i1 for 'Back Porch Middle Low'

Fri 10/01/2010 03:29:12 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 16.77.E7 0F 28 02 06          SET-MSB(02)

Fri 10/01/2010 03:29:12 PM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 16.77.E7 0C.A6.33 2B 28 02    SET-MSB(02)

Fri 10/01/2010 03:29:12 PM : [standard-Direct Ack][16.77.E7-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Fri 10/01/2010 03:29:13 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 16.77.E7 0F 2B 52 06          PEEK   (52)

Fri 10/01/2010 03:29:13 PM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 16.77.E7 0C.A6.33 2B 2B 02    PEEK   (02)

Fri 10/01/2010 03:29:13 PM : [standard-Direct Ack][16.77.E7-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Fri 10/01/2010 03:29:13 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 16.77.E7 0F 29 22 06          POKE   (22)

Fri 10/01/2010 03:29:13 PM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 16.77.E7 0C.A6.33 2B 29 22    POKE   (22)

Fri 10/01/2010 03:29:13 PM : [standard-Direct Ack][16.77.E7-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Fri 10/01/2010 03:29:13 PM : [16 77 E7 1  ] Memory : Write dbAddr=0x0249 [A2]

Fri 10/01/2010 03:29:13 PM : [16 77 E7 1  ] Using engine version i1 for 'Back Porch Middle Low'

Fri 10/01/2010 03:29:14 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 16.77.E7 0F 28 02 06          SET-MSB(02)

Fri 10/01/2010 03:29:14 PM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 16.77.E7 0C.A6.33 2B 28 02    SET-MSB(02)

Fri 10/01/2010 03:29:14 PM : [standard-Direct Ack][16.77.E7-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Fri 10/01/2010 03:29:14 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 16.77.E7 0F 2B 49 06          PEEK   (49)

Fri 10/01/2010 03:29:14 PM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 16.77.E7 0C.A6.33 2B 2B 82    PEEK   (82)

Fri 10/01/2010 03:29:14 PM : [standard-Direct Ack][16.77.E7-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Fri 10/01/2010 03:29:15 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 16.77.E7 0F 29 A2 06          POKE   (A2)

Fri 10/01/2010 03:29:15 PM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 16.77.E7 0C.A6.33 2B 29 A2    POKE   (A2)

Fri 10/01/2010 03:29:15 PM : [standard-Direct Ack][16.77.E7-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Fri 10/01/2010 03:29:15 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 16.77.E7 0F 24 00 06                 (00)

Fri 10/01/2010 03:29:15 PM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 16.77.E7 0C.A6.33 2B 24 00           (00)

Fri 10/01/2010 03:29:15 PM : [standard-Direct Ack][16.77.E7-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Fri 10/01/2010 03:29:15 PM : [16 77 E7 1  ] Memory : EPROM Refreshed

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Illusion,

 

Thanks. The Event Viewer trace provides the answer. Your trace is using the old direct memory update to set the non-toggle Off mode. The memory map for KPLs has changed a number of times and is likely not compatible with v36 firmware. I suggest updating to 2.8.2. I see the same very short 4 line command sequence to update the KPL toggle mode that Tim posted a few entries back. This is the latest and now revision independent method for updating the toggle modes. Remember that it is necessary to cycle the On/Off buttons once after setting the non-toggle Off mode for the OFF button to no longer turn the LED On.

 

Lee

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Upgraded to 2.8.2 Check this out. Still does not work.

 

Log of event viewer:

 

Fri 10/01/2010 04:57:39 PM : [15 9A FF 1  ] Memory : Write dbAddr=0x0249 [C7]

Fri 10/01/2010 04:57:39 PM : [15 9A FF 1  ] Using engine version i1 for 'HVAC KPL'

Fri 10/01/2010 04:57:39 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 15.9A.FF 0F 28 02 06          SET-MSB(02)

Fri 10/01/2010 04:57:40 PM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 15.9A.FF 0C.A6.33 2B 28 02    SET-MSB(02)

Fri 10/01/2010 04:57:40 PM : [standard-Direct Ack][15.9A.FF-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Fri 10/01/2010 04:57:40 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 15.9A.FF 0F 2B 49 06          PEEK   (49)

Fri 10/01/2010 04:57:40 PM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 15.9A.FF 0C.A6.33 2B 2B 04    PEEK   (04)

Fri 10/01/2010 04:57:40 PM : [standard-Direct Ack][15.9A.FF-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Fri 10/01/2010 04:57:40 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 15.9A.FF 0F 29 C7 06          POKE   (C7)

Fri 10/01/2010 04:57:41 PM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 15.9A.FF 0C.A6.33 2B 29 C7    POKE   (C7)

Fri 10/01/2010 04:57:41 PM : [standard-Direct Ack][15.9A.FF-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Fri 10/01/2010 04:57:41 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 15.9A.FF 0F 24 00 06                 (00)

Fri 10/01/2010 04:57:41 PM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 15.9A.FF 0C.A6.33 2B 24 00           (00)

Fri 10/01/2010 04:57:41 PM : [standard-Direct Ack][15.9A.FF-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Fri 10/01/2010 04:57:41 PM : [15 9A FF 1  ] Memory : EPROM Refreshed

 

Link Management is set to Automatic

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