2477D not dimming

[stealle]

I recently purchased the ISY 994.  I'm currently installing insteon switches. I haven't even taken my ISY out of the box so at this point, my question is only related to the 2477D. Hopefully it's OK that I post my question here...

I installed the 2477D. It turns the lights on/off OK, but it does not dim the lights at all.  The lights are Halo SLD 6 LED lights.  They are advertised as dimmable.  There are 9 of them hooked up to this switch.  They are 12.9W/0.15A each so that should be 116 watts and 1.35 amps. I tried 2 different brand new 2477D switches so I doubt both switches are bad.

Any help would be appreciated...

[lilyoyo1]

Are you sure that you are using a dimmer and not the relay? The 2477d (dimmer) looks exactly like the 2477s (relay). Sometimes people get them confused.

[stealle]

39 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Are you sure that you are using a dimmer and not the relay? The 2477d (dimmer) looks exactly like the 2477s (relay). Sometimes people get them confused.

Yes. I'm completely sure both of the switches I tried are 2477d.

[mwester]

Time to set up a test-stand on your workbench.  Many of us on this forum do this; it's most useful for figuring out issues as well as doing the initial factory-reset and setup of an Insteon device.

A simple test rig consists of a lamp cord, an incandescent lamp (25 watts or so) in a light socket, some miscellaneous wire and wire nuts -- the idea is to get a plug-in setup that allows you to (safely) test and configure a device with various loads on your workbench, of course.

Once you've established that you can turn on and off the incandescent lamp with the dimmer, the next steps I'd try include:

- factory reset the device per the Insteon instructions (they often come from the factory with some absolutely WILD settings, some of which don't seem to match any defined or documented behavior!).

- Check that the ramp-rate for the device is set reasonably -- if the device has too long a ramp time, one can be fooled into accidentally double-clicking it to make it turn on -- and that's an instant on (fast on), not a dim up.

- If the device works (dims) with the incandescent lamp, add one of the LED units (I expect you have a spare somewhere already).  See how it behaves with the dimmer; some of them just don't like the Insteon dimming technique...

 

Once you have things working, unbox that ISY, set it up (with the PLM), and then add your dimmer while it's still on the workbench -- much, much easier to get the address from the device and set it up on a workbench than in the wall.

Finally, move it to the wall -- if it works on the bench but doesn't work on the wall, then it's either a wiring problem in the wall somewhere, or it just doesn't like that set of LED bulbs you have.

[stealle]

OK... thanks for the replies.  I've used the insteon switches for years (and the older ISY 99i that I left in the old house).  I'm in a new home. This is just a new issue for me. I've had other issues, but this is a new one.

Without the ISY 994, I can still tell it the 2477D has a ramp rate of about 0.5 sec.  It's definitely dimming up/on and dimming down/off.  Since it's dimming up and dimming down normally, I find it strange that when I click and hold to dim, the little LEDs on the switch just disappear. 

I guess the next thing I try will be is a factory reset.

[lilyoyo1]

I agree with Mwester. Unfortunately not all LEDs are created equal. While yours might be dimmable, it may have a small dimming range or simply not compatible with a triac based dimmer.

[stealle]

21 hours ago, mwester said:

... then it's either a wiring problem in the wall somewhere, ...

OK it all working very well now. I just figured I would follow up....

Short Story:  I had it wired wrong.

Long Story: I have quite a cluster of 6 switches in this location. A 4 gang box and a 2 gang box right next to each other.  I was trying to put two 2477D in the 2 gang box.  I thought I had the white wires on the dimmers connected to the common wires (there were 2 white wires with a wire nut on them in the back of the box so I assumed they were the common wires).  As it turns out i'm not sure what white wires were that I was connecting them to.  I ended up finding the common wires in the 4 gang box.  I had to run a leader from the common wires in the 4 gang box into the 2 gang box to get the common wires to these dimmers.  I'm not an electrician (surprise I know), but it's all working now.  I've even got my ISY 994i installed with a few programs already set.  Waiting for sunset to see if they turn on!

Thanks for being here for me guys! 

[oberkc]

Are the two boxes on the same circuit breaker?

[stealle]

31 minutes ago, oberkc said:

Are the two boxes on the same circuit breaker?

No, they actually involve 3 circuit breakers. I have a ranch home with a finished basement. The main panel is located in the garage for the main floor. There is a subpanel in the basement for the basement.

One of these dimmer switches is for lights that light up the steps going down to the basement (circuit in the basement). This 2477D switch is actually part of a 3 way, but the other switch is regular dumb switch left in the on position for now. 

The other dimmer switch is for the outside soffit lights (circuit in the garage). The other regular light switches are for various other lights inside the house on the main floor.  When the electricians originally wired these 6 switches they were in horrible positions.  I asked them to move the outside soffit switch and the stairwell switch to the 2 gang box and I also told them what order I wanted the switches to be in the 4 gang box. Why? Do I need to be worried about anything?

For what it's worth... both of these switches/lights came on at 50% at dusk just as programmed. 

[oberkc]

In this case, it seems likely to me that you are using a neutral from a different circuit than the hot.  This introduces a risk of too much current on that neutral and starting fires.  Also, if any of the affected circuis include gfci outlets, you might start tripping those.  (It is also a code violation.)

I will leave it to you whether you wish to address this potential problem.

[stealle]

4 hours ago, oberkc said:

In this case, it seems likely to me that you are using a neutral from a different circuit than the hot.  This introduces a risk of too much current on that neutral and starting fires.  Also, if any of the affected circuis include gfci outlets, you might start tripping those.  (It is also a code violation.)

I will leave it to you whether you wish to address this potential problem.

Well that's scary!  I have a volt meter. Can I test the current on the neutral line? If so, what is acceptable current?

So, I have 3 circuit breakers involving these 2 electric boxes.  Should there be 3 separate sets of neutral wires?

[mwester]

Alas, a voltmeter is inadequate to resolve this -- the issue isn't the current flowing at *this* particular point-in-time, it's what is *possible* to flow in that conductor without tripping the associated circuit breakers.  The problem, basically, is that if you have two circuits sharing a neutral, then it may be possible for the current flowing in that shared neutral to be the sum of the two circuit breakers -- which is clearly far in excess of what it can safely carry.

If you have three *independent* breakers, then, yes you should have three neutrals.  If you have one independent breaker plus a paired breaker (i.e. one double-wide breaker), then you can actually have three "hot" wires but only two neutrals.  (This is because such a dual-breaker wiring has a very special arrangement (commonly used in kitchens and other high-amperage device areas) that makes it so that there's actually no condition, even if both hot wires are carrying the max current, that the neutral will ever carry more than the capacity of a single hot wire... if that makes no sense, I told you that it was a very special wiring arrangement!  ).

In any case, pulling a neutral from one box to another is a job for an electrician -- you can only do so safely if you have charted all the wires, and know exactly which breaker the Insteon device's load is on, and can match the neutral on that Insteon device to the neutral associated with the hot wire going to that breaker, and none other.

If the above made no sense to you -- I'd strongly recommend you undo that neutral, and call an electrician.  While unlikely to start a fire, it *is* possible -- and it's also a risk to your insurance, since they may have exclusions in the policy if they find out that you wired something that violated the electrical code, regardless of whether it was to blame for whatever claim you are bringing to them.

[oberkc]

Yes.  Three circuits would require three neutrals.

Most simple volt meters do not have ability to read that level of current.  Acceptable current would be based upon conductor size,.typically 12 or 14 gauge (20 or 15 amps, respectavely).  

If you are concerned about code and insurace considerations (or gfci problems), I doubt you have any remedy besides keeping the neutrals separate.  

Only you can choose to accept the fire risk.  On one hand, you are reducing current by moving from incandescent to LED.  Also, if on the opposite phase, you might actually be further reducing current ( look up multiwire branch circuit).  But, in worse case, you could potentially allow twice rated current withot tripping a breaker.

[stealle]

2 hours ago, oberkc said:

 On one hand, you are reducing current by moving from incandescent to LED.  Also, if on the opposite phase, you might actually be further reducing current ( look up multiwire branch circuit).  But, in worse case, you could potentially allow twice rated current withot tripping a breaker.

Thanks so much for the advice guys. I want to be safe. I will at the very least open it back up and look again to see if there are 3 separate neutral wires. If I can’t figure this out I’ll call an electrician. I’m at work now. I’ll tell my wife not to use any of the switches.

Meanwhile, please tell me if my logic is flawed here... All 6 of these switches are for light fixtures (no outlets are involved). All of them are LED bulbs. If all 6 switches are turned on at the same time the maximum power usage will be about 200w/2.0amps. This doesn’t seem like enough to cause a problem.... but I’m sure I’m probably missing something. 

[oberkc]

It is not necessarily what is on the switches that matter, but the entirety of what is on each circuit breaker.  If the only thing on the circuit breaker is the switch loads (seems unlikely to me), then your logic may hold up.  If there are other than ngs the n the circuit breakers beyon the switches being discussed, you must cnonsider the possible load from those, as well.