2 ISY994is on a network?

[aguden]

In an upgrade of my generator and automatic transfer switches, I lost contact with with devices on 2 of 3 of my sub panels.  There are no electricians in my area who has any experience with Insteon so I wonder if I can use more than one ISY994i on a single network?  If so I can add a second (and maybe a 3rd) ISY994i to the areas covered by other sub panels. The wireless on the dual band devices isn't strong enough to reach the areas covered by the sub panels.

It would sure be much more convenient to have the 3 sub panels working as they did before but I can't seem to find an electrician to fix it! 

Any feedback will be appreciated.

[Techman]

3 hours ago, aguden said:

In an upgrade of my generator and automatic transfer switches, I lost contact with with devices on 2 of 3 of my sub panels.  There are no electricians in my area who has any experience with Insteon so I wonder if I can use more than one ISY994i on a single network?  If so I can add a second (and maybe a 3rd) ISY994i to the areas covered by other sub panels. The wireless on the dual band devices isn't strong enough to reach the areas covered by the sub panels.

It would sure be much more convenient to have the 3 sub panels working as they did before but I can't seem to find an electrician to fix it! 

Any feedback will be appreciated.

Have you tried using (external) plug in dual band devices such as the on/off module or range extender to bridge the sub panels.

You should also check for power line interference caused by power supplies, TVs, computers, etc. which can wreak havoc on the Insteon signals.

Here's some troubleshooting tips   https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=INSTEON:_Troubleshooting_Communications_Errors

 

[aguden]

Thank you.  The 2992-222 Range Extender is what your are suggesting - or any device that is dual band.  Then plug it into a receptacle  as close to the 2nd panel area and maybe plug another as close to the other in the 2nd panel area. 

All worked before the new automatic switch was installed so I am not concerned with interference.  

 

I appreciate the input and I'll get to testing tomorrow.

[Techman]

2 hours ago, aguden said:

Thank you.  The 2992-222 Range Extender is what your are suggesting - or any device that is dual band.  Then plug it into a receptacle  as close to the 2nd panel area and maybe plug another as close to the other in the 2nd panel area. 

All worked before the new automatic switch was installed so I am not concerned with interference.  

 

I appreciate the input and I'll get to testing tomorrow.

With the dual band devices you'll want to bridge the two side of the power line. Use the 4 tap test on a plug in dual band device to confirm that the devices are on the opposite sides of the power line.  The 4 tap procedure should be in the device instruction manual.

The range extender is just a lamplinc or on/off module with a few components removed. I prefer using the on/off  or lamplinc modules as they can be queried to confirm they're working. The range extender can not e queried so there's no way no verify it's working.

 

[aguden]

Ok.  I'm good with one of the 2 sub panels.  Got it  working using a 2457D2 LampLinc.  Now for the other sub panel.

I reviewed the manual for the lamplinc and only find the RF Beacon feature on page 18 as helpful and no reference to the 4 tap procedure you mentioned above.  It sure sounds like it would be helpful for checking the phase of some devices.  I've attached the manual. Any help would be appreciated.

2457D2-en.pdf

[paulbates]

You can also have an electrician put the signalinc bridge in each of the subpanels. The directions explain to them what they'll need to install it.

I use this in my panel to bridge the two phases. 

Paul

[Techman]

1 hour ago, aguden said:

Ok.  I'm good with one of the 2 sub panels.  Got it  working using a 2457D2 LampLinc.  Now for the other sub panel.

I reviewed the manual for the lamplinc and only find the RF Beacon feature on page 18 as helpful and no reference to the 4 tap procedure you mentioned above.  It sure sounds like it would be helpful for checking the phase of some devices.  I've attached the manual. Any help would be appreciated.

2457D2-en.pdf

Here's the manual for the phase coupler. The 4 tap test as shown is the manual is applicable for any of the newer dual band devices. Not sure why they left it out of some of the manuals. The access points / range extenders are basically on/off modules or lamplincs without the ability to control a device.

 

2443 Access point quick start.pdf

[Brian H]

Some of the manuals only show the Beacon Test {AKA 4 Tap test} in the Set Button LED flash pattern flow charts but the four tap method also works.

The 2868-222 Insteon Siren modules manual is even worse. The manual mentions Beacon Test on the  specification page of the manual but nowhere in the manual is how to start it.  The four tap test worked for me it it was the module starting the test.  Even thought the  four tap worked fine if it was the one starting the test. The LED does not react at all. If another module starts the test.

[aguden]

I have checked the phase coupling status of the 2 sub panels and it looks like both sub panels do not have the phases coupled. Odd that I have 3 2457D2 dimmers and only one of them responds when I tap the set button 4 times. The 2992-222 also works.  Some of the switches respond as the 2nd device but the old single band switches don't.

Additionally, there are a bunch of switches that are old and not dual band.  So I think I should install the phase couplers in the 2 sub panels and upgrade the old switches.  Any electrician can do that.  

Are the old 2443 Access Points of any use.  I have a few of them in the system but don't know what they actually do.  

It would be great if I could locate an electrician who has some idea of what Insteon is so he can troubleshoot and get the system back working.  The Insteon listed Certified Electicians both north and south of me are either gone or no longer have anyone who can do Insteon work.  Any thoughts?  I don't have the knowledge to get into an electrical panel.  Would love to find someone to do the troubleshooting.

[Brian H]

The Access Points can pass along RF and power line signals. To Dual Band modules and other Access Points. They can communicate with. Including phase coupling between the two incoming power line. Unless they are defective and causing issues. They should be OK in the system. My two version 2 module had the power supply issues and started to act strange.

Wired in couplers may help. They only couple what they receive on the power lines. So if the signal is weak or their is noise. It is coupled back to the other phase.

Does your new setup's transfer switch have electronics in it? If so it may have some noise suppression on its power input. That maybe absorbing the Insteon power line signals a noise.

[Techman]

6 hours ago, aguden said:

I have checked the phase coupling status of the 2 sub panels and it looks like both sub panels do not have the phases coupled. Odd that I have 3 2457D2 dimmers and only one of them responds when I tap the set button 4 times. The 2992-222 also works.  Some of the switches respond as the 2nd device but the old single band switches don't.

Additionally, there are a bunch of switches that are old and not dual band.  So I think I should install the phase couplers in the 2 sub panels and upgrade the old switches.  Any electrician can do that.  

Are the old 2443 Access Points of any use.  I have a few of them in the system but don't know what they actually do.  

It would be great if I could locate an electrician who has some idea of what Insteon is so he can troubleshoot and get the system back working.  The Insteon listed Certified Electicians both north and south of me are either gone or no longer have anyone who can do Insteon work.  Any thoughts?  I don't have the knowledge to get into an electrical panel.  Would love to find someone to do the troubleshooting.

Having dual band devices in your system will definitely improve the system reliability.

You can couple the two sides of your power line by using two plug in dual band devices, such as a Lamplinc, on/off module or a range extender. Most importantly the devices must be on opposite legs of your power line which can be confirmed using the 4 tap test.

Some of the older devices do not support the 4 tap option.

At this point I don't think you need an Electrician.  I think the money would be better spent on newer dual band devices.  Some of the older access points were problematic so I would try to stay with recent versions.

 

 

[aguden]

Ok. I will change out any non-dual band devices except for the old access points. Then I should be down to the one sub panel in the barn.  Im having some work done and I can run a 120 line from the Garage (that’s working fine now) out to the barn.  Then I can plug in a dual band expended or switch and that should deliver the signals to the barn. 

Im guessing I can test this out using a long extension cord to bring a dual band device physically to the barn where it should work! Does that sound right?

Thanks for all the help. I’ll work through this. Everything on the ISY994i works great but I need to get this fixed before I move on to things like Alexa or Google and Sonos!  Been with Insteon to long to change. X10 before that!

[Techman]

35 minutes ago, aguden said:

Ok. I will change out any non-dual band devices except for the old access points. Then I should be down to the one sub panel in the barn.  Im having some work done and I can run a 120 line from the Garage (that’s working fine now) out to the barn.  Then I can plug in a dual band expended or switch and that should deliver the signals to the barn. 

Im guessing I can test this out using a long extension cord to bring a dual band device physically to the barn where it should work! Does that sound right?

Thanks for all the help. I’ll work through this. Everything on the ISY994i works great but I need to get this fixed before I move on to things like Alexa or Google and Sonos!  Been with Insteon to long to change. X10 before that!

What's the distance between the barn and the house?

If you have a two story home then try to place your dual band modules in the 2nd story, the higher the better to accomplish the best RF coverage.

Using an extension cord from the house to the barn basically defeats what you're trying to accomplish. Using only dual band plug-in  modules is your best option.

In your situation it's best to focus on the plug-in modules as they have (external) antennas that will provide the best RF coverage. The dual band switches have the antenna in the back of the device which impedes RF coverage. Additionally if the switches  are mounted in metal boxes the RF signal is compromised.  The RF frequency used by the Insteon devices works best within line of sight.

The Insteon system is a mesh network, all the devices communicate with one another, and repeat signals,  both via the power line and via RF (when using dual band devices) .

Is your PLM a dual band model?

Additionally, the access points / range extenders cannot be queried, so in the event they fail there's no way off knowing. That's why I prefer the other dual band plug-in modules that can communicate with the ISY.

[aguden]

PLM is dual band. Barn is probably 60 feet from the garage but all receptacles are inside and both buildings are concrete block. I figured using the extension would let me test the connection after I replace all old devices with dual band. If it works with the extension cord. 

How far can I expect the RF signal to reach line of sight?

 

[aguden]

PS - the other day I did get a few lights to go on in the barn but I’m not sure how. The new dual band devices and assuring I have the phases coupled may solve the problem. I think I had one of the dual band plug in modules in the barn testing. Just will check everything tomorrow..  

[Techman]

5 minutes ago, aguden said:

PLM is dual band. Barn is probably 60 feet from the garage but all receptacles are inside and both buildings are concrete block. I figured using the extension would let me test the connection after I replace all old devices with dual band. If it works with the extension cord. 

How far can I expect the RF signal to reach line of sight?

 

The RF range is about 150 feet unobstructed.  The extension cord really won't accomplish anything. Plug a dual band device into the barn, and one in the house as close to the barn as possible. If you use a lamplinc or on/off module in the barn you can plug a light into it and then see if you can control it from the house. If so, then you're good to go.

 

[aguden]

Thank you for all of your help.  I have 4 switches that are not Dual band and 1 outlet.  And changing them and placing a few of the dual band LampLinc dimmers in strategic places should take care of my problems.  I have ordered new dual band switches and an outlet.  Once I get them in and tested if I have any problems I'll get back.  

 

Lots of odd behavior made sense after I reviewed the dual band vs non dual band locations.  I'm sure that the original panel has a phase coupler in it but the other 2 don't.  There was probably something in the 2nd automatic transfer switch that interfered with the Insteon powerline signal.  We will get to the bottom of this!

 

Thanks again for all of the help.

[aguden]

Just a further update.  I have installed a few dual band lamplincs and range extenders and now have confirmed that with them in place all 3 subpanels have the phases coupled!  Yeah.

The 1st and 2nd subpanle are fine and work as expected.  The 3rd subpanel (barn) cannot be reached.  I suspect that the barn (concrete block) and the garage (concrete block too) closest dual band devices just are having the signal blocked by the concrete block and the steel electrical boxes.  I plan to try to run extension cords from both buildings with dual band devices to see how close they need to be to receive a signal.  Once that's figured out I can decide which way to go - I think.

[Techman]

2 hours ago, aguden said:

Just a further update.  I have installed a few dual band lamplincs and range extenders and now have confirmed that with them in place all 3 subpanels have the phases coupled!  Yeah.

The 1st and 2nd subpanle are fine and work as expected.  The 3rd subpanel (barn) cannot be reached.  I suspect that the barn (concrete block) and the garage (concrete block too) closest dual band devices just are having the signal blocked by the concrete block and the steel electrical boxes.  I plan to try to run extension cords from both buildings with dual band devices to see how close they need to be to receive a signal.  Once that's figured out I can decide which way to go - I think.

In the barn you'll need two plug in modules, one on each side of the powerline. It's possible that you're reaching the barn but not on both power line legs.

Try to place the modules away from anything that could interfere with the RF signal such as metal etc. There's also the possibility that you have some electrical device in the barn that's interfering with the Insteon signal such as fluorescent lights, motors, etc.

[aguden]

1. I did the 2 plug in modules and got the green flashing on the 2nd so I think that indicates success. Phases should be coupled.

2. There is an AC but that's on the opposite side of the barn.  In the aisle there are florescent fixtures but they were off for most of the testing.  There is also a washer/dryer in the tack room and a 7.5 HP pump that only runs after midnight.

Here is what I've done today:

I am getting somewhere:

Attached is the listing of all devices.  (Insteon.jpg) The "BARN" is the 3rd sub panel that hasn't been working.

Subpanel 1 and 2 are now fine.

I ran an extension from the GarageMahal for the GarageMahal Outlet to be plugged into and placed that in the Tack Room in the Barn. The GarageMahal has only one 15 amp circuit so only one phase.  

I have tests the Barn and the phases test as coupled using LampLinc Dual Band devices.

In the Tack Room I know that the Window and Washer Dryer outlets are on different phases from 4 tap testing.  Not certain about the other switches but the only two that are 'ok' are the BarnCam switch (not dual band) and the Tack Room Window LampLinc.

I can turn the BarnCam switch on and off.  So something is getting through but when I try to turn the Tack Room Window lamplinc on and off it turns to a red exclaamtion point.

The 4 with the green icon, I can query. If I appempt to turn one of them on or off it reports back as cannot communicate and changes to a red exclaimation point. Same happens if I try to write to the devices. Same happens with restore.

I removed the GarageMagal Lanplinc from the tack room and there was no change.

With all others having a red exclaimation point I can still turn the barnCam switch on and off.

And the barn aisle and exterior lights turn on and off and they have a small green icon

What am I missing?  It feels like it is getting some of the signal but it is weak.  

I can get a list of which breakers the devices are on and then probably figure out which phase they are on. (See End.jpg)

Any thoughts like maybe adding a 2nd controller for the barn only?

[Techman]

To eliminate the possibility that some electrical device in the barn is causing problems, try turning off all the breakers in the barn subpanel expect the one that has the BarnCam Switch  plugged into it then try to communicate with the the BarnCam Switch from the ISY.  If you're successful then turn each breaker on, one at a time, and attempt to communicate with your devices,  until you find the circuit that may have a device that's causing interference.

The red explanation marks indicate that the ISY is unable to communicate with the device.

The green 1011 means that there are pending write updates to that device but the ISY can't communicate with it.

The fact that the ISY can successfully communicate with the BarnCam Switch indicates that your ISY has communications via the barn subpanel.

 

 

[aguden]

Thanks for the guidance.  Getting closer.  I mapped out all of the breakers to everything in the barn.  Then I started going back as you suggested to only the circuit with the barncam.  That worked fine when I added the circuit that had the washer dryer device which was phase coupling breaker.  So then I added a 3rd breaker that had the 3 other Insteon devices.  The devices would typically show a red exclamation mark except for the BarnCam switch (which is 6" over the panel).  

Maybe the circuit (14) is the culprit?  I turned it off and swapped the washer dryer device to another circuit (20) with the old washer dryer device moved to "Tack Room North Recept".  That seems to work as it should.  Plan is to add circuits one at a time with 14 being last.  If it turns out that 14 is the culprit, it may be that that circuit has only the motor for a Roll Up Hurricane door and the 3 Insteon Dual Band switches.

I continued on adding circuits and dropping ones that showed problems.  The dryer (220) displayed one !.  The Hot water heater was fine.  The washer (110) ended up showing all with exclamation marks!

I can't see any pattern. Could there be something generally wrong with the panel?  Maybe a bad ground or neutral? We are in south Florida and the irrigation box has been blown off the exterior wall of the barn twice. The lightning caused damage all over the property that time. Any thoughts?

 

 

 

[Techman]

I doubt that there's a problem with the panel.

The lighting / static electricity could have damaged your Insteon devices, or corrupted the non-volatile memory in the devices. I would try doing a factory reset on one of the non-responding devices, then a restore device to see if that restores communications. Make sure you do a full reset. On the switchlinc you need to pull out the tab which removes power then push the tab all the way in and hold it until the device beeps. Continue to hold it in until the beeping stops.

Let me know if that helps. 

[aguden]

Thank you.  I did a factory reset of one device (barn Aisle) and then checked again.  No help.  I reset the other 2 devices (Barn Exterior and Barn Exterior Floods) . No help.  Maybe the devices have been been damaged to a point that they can't be reset or work - except intermittently.

I have some new dual band switches on the way in from Smarthome and think I ought to change these 3 out.  All 3 are on the same circuit.

I also decided to see if it would make a difference if I installed  a 2245-222 in the barn.  I had the one I used before the ISY994i and I just deleted the scenes.  The Barn Aisle switched won't run but the other 2 seem ok.  

Could the Barn Aisle device be the problem?

I really appreciate your help with this. 

Cordially,

Paul (Al) Guden

 

[Techman]

9 hours ago, aguden said:

Thank you.  I did a factory reset of one device (barn Aisle) and then checked again.  No help.  I reset the other 2 devices (Barn Exterior and Barn Exterior Floods) . No help.  Maybe the devices have been been damaged to a point that they can't be reset or work - except intermittently.

I have some new dual band switches on the way in from Smarthome and think I ought to change these 3 out.  All 3 are on the same circuit.

I also decided to see if it would make a difference if I installed  a 2245-222 in the barn.  I had the one I used before the ISY994i and I just deleted the scenes.  The Barn Aisle switched won't run but the other 2 seem ok.  

Could the Barn Aisle device be the problem?

I really appreciate your help with this. 

Cordially,

Paul (Al) Guden

 

It's a process of elimination. Before you install the Hub I would try replacing the barn Aisle switch to see it that helps.

Do the Barn Exterior and Barn Exterior Floods now work. Were you able to do a restore device on them without noticeable issues?

Try removing power from  the Barn Aisle switch by pulling out the tab at the bottom of the switch, then try to update the other devices.