0-10VDC output control with ISY

[Banichi]

This is not the same question as the other recently posted question that was talking about 0-10v LED control. What I'm trying to figure out is if there is a way using insteon or the ISY to send 0-10vdc outputs for controlling IR heating units. I think that I could have made the ballast dimmer work but it does seem as though it is discontinued. With that I would have used it as if I were controlling a regular dimmable ballast but just cap off the load wires and just used the 10vdc wires as the control mechanism. 

But without those I'm not quite sure how to accomplish this task. 

0V is 0% on the heater and 10V is 100% on the heater. What would be ideal is if I had a way to use insteon directly to control that output, like a din rail dimmer to a variable, (unregulated?) power supply that has a max output of 10v

[larryllix]

This is not the same question as the other recently posted question that was talking about 0-10v LED control. What I'm trying to figure out is if there is a way using insteon or the ISY to send 0-10vdc outputs for controlling IR heating units. I think that I could have made the ballast dimmer work but it does seem as though it is discontinued. With that I would have used it as if I were controlling a regular dimmable ballast but just cap off the load wires and just used the 10vdc wires as the control mechanism. 
But without those I'm not quite sure how to accomplish this task. 
0V is 0% on the heater and 10V is 100% on the heater. What would be ideal is if I had a way to use insteon directly to control that output, like a din rail dimmer to a variable, (unregulated?) power supply that has a max output of 10v

That would be the only plug-in solution I can see. The 10vdc power supply would have to be an analogue unit without a regulator (good luck finding one of those antiques) and the ISY values would have to compensate for the diode bridge losses at the bottom end.

The transformer might hum and/or not like the hacked up waveform coming off the Insteon dimmer.

The Insteon dimmer may not like the inductive load either when it injects high frequency switching noise either.

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[Banichi]

Thanks for that Larry. I was thinking that I might have to build my own power supply if I had to go that route.

However, I just thought about Z-wave and 0-10v solutions and I found this guy:

http://qubino.com/products/flush-dimmer0-10v/

 

Don't know what support would be like in the ISY. It is multi-channel and I haven't done much at all with z-wave on the ISY yet. I really want to but just haven't had the time. How is multi-channel support coming along in 5.x.x?

[apostolakisl]

I can't speak for sure to this heater you have, but . . .   The 0-10v dimming of lighting is not accomplished by generating a 0-10v potential and presenting it to the device.  Rather, the device generates the 10v output (current limited to very minimal) and the controller uses variable resistance to drop that voltage.  With resistance to 0, voltage drops to 0, at infinity, voltage is 10.  In short, you need ISY to control a potentiometer.

[larryllix]

1 hour ago, Banichi said:

Thanks for that Larry. I was thinking that I might have to build my own power supply if I had to go that route.

However, I just thought about Z-wave and 0-10v solutions and I found this guy:

http://qubino.com/products/flush-dimmer0-10v/

 

Don't know what support would be like in the ISY. It is multi-channel and I haven't done much at all with z-wave on the ISY yet. I really want to but just haven't had the time. How is multi-channel support coming along in 5.x.x?

I don't know what multi-channel means. I have no Zwave and AFAIC Insteon devices have always had multi-channel as I understand the meaning of the syllables.

[larryllix]

1 hour ago, apostolakisl said:

I can't speak for sure to this heater you have, but . . .   The 0-10v dimming of lighting is not accomplished by generating a 0-10v potential and presenting it to the device.  Rather, the device generates the 10v output (current limited to very minimal) and the controller uses variable resistance to drop that voltage.  With resistance to 0, voltage drops to 0, at infinity, voltage is 10.  In short, you need ISY to control a potentiometer.

Then don't use the 10Vdc from the lighting device and use your own supplied voltage, observing polarity. A potentiometer only acts a a voltage divider to accomplish the same thing. However if the 10Vdc is live to the electrical supply and the output of the 0-10V device cannot handle the rise in voltage then it's not going to work, or be dangerous.

Oooops. Are you saying there is only two terminals/connections for the lighting input and it's permanently alive from an internal source?  If so, you would have to disconnect the internal supply.  To get a variable resistance output you may have to go to some ardiuno kit/gadget  with a variable duty cycle oscillator and filter to simulate resistances.

[Banichi]

I don't know what multi-channel means. I have no Zwave and AFAIC Insteon devices have always had multi-channel as I understand the meaning of the syllables.

Z-wave devices that have more than 1 function like the motion sensor that has a motion sensor, dusk/dawn sensor, and triggering are multi-channel devices.

I know that some of them were problematic in the beginning of z wave implementation but I also know it was improving. So I guess we'll see. I just bought one to test out.

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[apostolakisl]

On 9/6/2018 at 5:30 PM, larryllix said:

Then don't use the 10Vdc from the lighting device and use your own supplied voltage, observing polarity. A potentiometer only acts a a voltage divider to accomplish the same thing. However if the 10Vdc is live to the electrical supply and the output of the 0-10V device cannot handle the rise in voltage then it's not going to work, or be dangerous.

Oooops. Are you saying there is only two terminals/connections for the lighting input and it's permanently alive from an internal source?  If so, you would have to disconnect the internal supply.  To get a variable resistance output you may have to go to some ardiuno kit/gadget  with a variable duty cycle oscillator and filter to simulate resistances.

In the thread I started about this I linked to a pdf file that describes it quite nicely.   It works very much like an alarm system zone.  The panel produces the voltage for the zone.  The alarm panel reports a voltage then on the zone, not because the voltage was sourced from the target, but rather the target either left it alone or reduced it by shunting some or all to ground.

The order is as follows.

1) The device itself has a transformer producing 10v dc

2) Next in line is a resistor

3) Next in line is a voltage meter

4) Next in line is a variable resistor (your dimmer switch) that reduces that voltage by running it through a variable resistor bleeding off some or all of the volts to ground.

5) The device dims itself internally based on the measured voltage.  The voltage itself pushes out milliamps of current, that current is only a signal, it does not run power the light.  EDIT:  They don't even do 1 mA.  My reading would indicate about .15mA.

Edited September 8, 2018 by apostolakisl

[larryllix]

3 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

In the thread I started about this I linked to a pdf file that describes it quite nicely.   It works very much like an alarm system zone.  The panel produces the voltage for the zone.  The alarm panel reports a voltage then on the zone, not because the voltage was sourced from the target, but rather the target either left it alone or reduced it by shunting some or all to ground.

The order is as follows.

1) The device itself has a transformer producing 10v dc

2) Next in line is a resistor

3) Next in line is a voltage meter

4) Next in line is a variable resistor (your dimmer switch) that reduces that voltage by running it through a variable resistor bleeding off some or all of the volts to ground.

5) The device dims itself internally based on the measured voltage.  The voltage itself pushes out milliamps of current, that current is only a signal, it does not run power the light.

For your application, do you have a cabinet to load equipment into or are you forced into a switch box or octagon box? Is there a central location for all the 0-10V light controls or would the controller have to be in individual locations?

[apostolakisl]

9 hours ago, larryllix said:

For your application, do you have a cabinet to load equipment into or are you forced into a switch box or octagon box? Is there a central location for all the 0-10V light controls or would the controller have to be in individual locations?

The drivers/transformers for the lights are in the attic.  The switch is in a normal single gang box.

[larryllix]

2 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

The drivers/transformers for the lights are in the attic.  The switch is in a normal single gang box.

Is that one single-gang switchbox for all the lights?  I was assuming the lights cover the ceilings of a church and would have an input for each fixture, meaning multiple pairs of inputs.
I wonder if the live feed from the inputs can be disconnected in the fixtures so that a separate 0-10v supply could be used? 
 

[apostolakisl]

3 hours ago, larryllix said:

Is that one single-gang switchbox for all the lights?  I was assuming the lights cover the ceilings of a church and would have an input for each fixture, meaning multiple pairs of inputs.
I wonder if the live feed from the inputs can be disconnected in the fixtures so that a separate 0-10v supply could be used? 
 

I suppose you could apply negative 10v to the pos 10v output to get a 0, and anything between 0 and -10 for other values.  But if I damaged it, that would be very bad.  I'm going to stick with the design which is to bleed down the voltage by sinking some current to ground through a variable resistor . . . or do nothing at all.

And yes, the entire series of fixtures is on a single driver with a single controller (dimmer).

[larryllix]

6 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

I suppose you could apply negative 10v to the pos 10v output to get a 0, and anything between 0 and -10 for other values.  But if I damaged it, that would be very bad.  I'm going to stick with the design which is to bleed down the voltage by sinking some current to ground through a variable resistor . . . or do nothing at all.
And yes, the entire series of fixtures is on a single driver with a single controller (dimmer).

I was thinking of a multiple contact output device...like iolincs x 2 or one of the third party brands. EZxIO?? I can't remember the number.

Make a small resistor ladder for on 50%, 25%,12.5% using three resistors.

UPDATE: With two output contacts only two dim levels could be handled. 100%, 50%, 25% and Off,  four states.  With a formC contacts (IOLinc) only one 100%, 40%, Off.

If ramping is needed a small capacitor could slide the effective resistance from one level to another.
 

Edited September 8, 2018 by larryllix

[apostolakisl]

This appears to be what is needed.  Though I'm not 100% sure since the specs here are . . . well . . . what specs?

But it looks like you take your standard triac (Insteon) dimmer and run the load wire into this device.  Then this device controls your 0-10v based on the dimming level of the triac side.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Converter-from-Triac-dimmer-output-to-0-10V-dimmer-signal-or-PWM-VDC-dimmer-/272911268235

 

EDIT:  Found better literature (and price)  http://digitallighting.com/animationfolder/specs/manuals/DT-AN10-PWM.pdf

EDIT 2:  And a better price  https://www.idealstar.top/dtan10pwm-vac-triac-dimmer-to-010v-analog-signal-pwm-dimmer-converter-p-10006.html

 

 

Edited September 8, 2018 by apostolakisl

[larryllix]

Nice find! 

 

Just need en enclosure, a  UL/CSA 12-24vdc power supply and a place to put them.

[ELA]

Dont forget the fan to cool that 10Watt Resistor :)

Maybe a 4W nightlight might be a better choice.

[apostolakisl]

16 hours ago, ELA said:

Dont forget the fan to cool that 10Watt Resistor

Maybe a 4W nightlight might be a better choice.

With a little luck, maybe the Insteon switches won't need a dummy load.  Not that a little night light is a big deal.

[apostolakisl]

On 9/6/2018 at 2:50 PM, Banichi said:

This is not the same question as the other recently posted question that was talking about 0-10v LED control. What I'm trying to figure out is if there is a way using insteon or the ISY to send 0-10vdc outputs for controlling IR heating units. I think that I could have made the ballast dimmer work but it does seem as though it is discontinued. With that I would have used it as if I were controlling a regular dimmable ballast but just cap off the load wires and just used the 10vdc wires as the control mechanism. 

But without those I'm not quite sure how to accomplish this task. 

0V is 0% on the heater and 10V is 100% on the heater. What would be ideal is if I had a way to use insteon directly to control that output, like a din rail dimmer to a variable, (unregulated?) power supply that has a max output of 10v

I googled this, and it looks to me like the 0-10v signal works the same as for lights.  So the device above would work.  I base this on what I see here.  http://infratech-usa.com/wp-content/uploads/IN023_ControlsBrochure_020718_mh_FNL2_sngl.pdf   It states it works with standard dimmers from Crestron and the like.  And these dimmers don't generate the 10v, the only "dim" the 10v.

[larryllix]

It shouldn't matter if two sources of pullup to 10vdc are paralleled, as long as the pulldown output transistor can carry a few milliamps from each source.

It makes sense the lighting or load device provides the 10 vdc supply for a simple rheostat on the wall. Where would the electrician get a source for 10 Vdc inside a switch box anyway?

The unit Apostalakisl linked to said it was a 0-10 Vdc output sourced to ground or common. There should no problem parallelling two pullup resistors on a common line provided the polarities are the same. My guess is standards specify the polarity, anyway.

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[Banichi]

On 9/9/2018 at 12:35 PM, apostolakisl said:

I googled this, and it looks to me like the 0-10v signal works the same as for lights.  So the device above would work.  I base this on what I see here.  http://infratech-usa.com/wp-content/uploads/IN023_ControlsBrochure_020718_mh_FNL2_sngl.pdf   It states it works with standard dimmers from Crestron and the like.  And these dimmers don't generate the 10v, the only "dim" the 10v.

Yes that device looks like it would work great! I just got one of the Z-wave devices that I mentioned in one of my earlier posts. The Qubino Flush DImmer 0-10v. I just had to use my ISY for a customer site since I got a ISY that was DOA. First time that has ever happened. So I need to get a new z-wave isy in so that I can test this bad boy out. I'd like to test out the triac dimmer unit that you posted as well. I'll update on the z-wave module when I get my new ISY.

[Banichi]

Okay so update on this. I have the qubino flush dimmer that I mentioned. It works with 5.0.13C, (which is what my ISY shipped with) without any particular configuration necessary. The qubino has many on-device parameters that can be configured that I probably won't need. The "Multilevel Switch" aspect of the device controls the 0-10v output. I have attached the meter and it is pretty darn accurate for 10% = 1V. For example 30%=3.153V on the meter. So not super spot on but if your tolerances are +- 150mV then you should be able to use this for anything requiring 0-10V. 

Of note is that the 0% or OFF setting has a residual 160mV-ish. So I still may need that 

The only problem I forsee with this is range. They will be the only z-wave devices in this install so I'll have to get the ISY close enough to talk to them. This is the biggest downside to z-wave + insteon that I've found. Z-wave just doesn't have the range that insteon does due to no powerline coms/ no dual band.

 

That said I did find a distributor that had 4 of the 2475DA2 units so I bought them all. I needed 8 so I may end up going with the qubino units so if someone really needs a insteon ballast dimmer then let me know. I may be willing to part with them.

[etsvilik]

It is very relevant topic for me. I'm looking to install one of the Infratech IR heaters on patio. It is their W-40 , 4000W, 240V model. For controls I considered their Home Management single zone unit .  It is controlled by 0-10VDC.  However it costs more than 2x the cost of the heater itself, over $1600 

I want to try to roll out my own control using Qubino 0-10V dimmer and SSR like this model RGC1P48V30ED. under $200. I like that they have a soft start advanced option as it may prolong the life of the heat element.

I would place 24V power supply to feed both Qubino and SSR inside the enclosure, placed in the garage.

I'm a bit concerned with Banichi's note re residual DC voltage on qubino as need to make sure it shuts heater off completely. Please update on your findings

It's been a very long time since I touched any industrial controls. If you guys have any comments, suggestions on my plan please share.

 

Edited October 22, 2018 by etsvilik

[Banichi]

The panels that they send cost a ridiculous amount of money. Though after thinking about it, it is likely related to their UL certification process and the associated costs. The entire BOM for the 5 zone panel is roughly $1500. But having the enclosure with a UL cert label on it makes it a lot easier to pass inspections. 

The SSR that you listed is almost the exact same as what is in the panel for this job. The units that shipped with our panel are RGC1P48V42ED at $168 each. Those units also have the soft start option. I'm guessing that the went with the 42 instead of the 30 to have a little room on the current spec. 

Regarding the residual voltage bleed on the qubino, you can do what @apostolakisl suggested with a resistor, (and a fan to cool it most likely). I'm thinking about either using a incandescent flashlight battery to bleed the voltage with the possible added benefit of an "off" indicator light if it actually illuminates. 

The only suggestion that I would make to your plan is that you do have some sort of breaker near by for emergency shutoff purposes. The panel that Infratech sells has the din rail mounted mini breakers. The ones that shipped with our unit are 2-pole 30A breakers from Schneider Electric at about another $160-ish. 

[etsvilik]

Thanks for suggestions. 

I went ahead with making my own control for this heater. Total BOM is about $300. Newark had really  good prices on parts.

I actually went with larger WD-60 6kW heater and upgraded to 50 Amp SSR. RGC1P48V50ED.

 

.

I purchased optional temperature sensor for Qubino and attached it to the SSR heatsink to monitor operating temperatures. Setup to shutdown the control if exceeds 150F.  In my tests it stayed at around 90F,   Will monitor this for some time. 

Tested all last night by hooking up to Cook top outlet with spare cord.

Initially had trouble with residual voltage from dimmer - SSR would not shutdown completely with 0.24v on controls. Resistor across didn't help. After switching SSR mode (7 to 6) the issue went away. In this mode SSR has a dead band up to 0.5v before starting to conduct.  Control is pretty lineal with Qubino control voltage closely related to dimming %.

To Do's:

All left is to put the panel inside the enclosure, run 10/2 wire and install the heater. Dress up the wiring and label everything.

Waiting for 240V LED's to install in enclosure door to show main and load activity. 

May add extra safe-fail using current transformer and I/O Link. SSR typically fails shorting so I think to have a setup to alert me if current flows without ON signal.

Need to program exclusive control of the heater or retractable awning under it. Can't have both:) 

[paulbates]

11 hours ago, etsvilik said:

hanks for suggestions. 

I went ahead with making my own control for this heater. Total BOM is about $300. Newark had really  good prices on parts.

Thanks for documenting this thoroughly. There is a How are you using your ISY section of the forum. Could you copy and recreate this post there too? It can definitely help others from your experience.

Paul