Please help me wire a 3-Way

[Athlon]

I have two 2476D's I would like to replace a current 3-way dimmer/toggle switch setup.

On one end is where I removed an old dimmer that had three wires coming out of it and no labels. Red, white and black. Connecting the same color wires from the 2476D does not work the light.

Here is what is in that box in the wall (Box 1): 2 cables

Cable 1: W, R and B wires

Cable 2: W and B wires

The W from cable 1 is connected to the B from cable 2. The remaining R, B and W wires were connected to the old dimmer.

Here is what is in the other box in the wall (Box 2): 3 cables

All wires from cables 2 and 3 are connected to themselves and another 3-way switch for another load I am not replacing for now.

Cable 1: W, R and B wires

The W and R were connected to brass screws on the switch I removed. The B was connected to a black screw on the switch I removed.

How should I wire the two 2476Ds?

(Connecting W, R and B wires to each other at each end does not work.)

 

Edited September 15, 2018 by Athlon

[dbuss]

@Athlon, Read through this post and I think you will be able to find the answers you are looking for.

 

 

[Athlon]

@dbuss - Thank you for your quick reply.

I've tried all sorts of combinations after reading the thread you pointed me to with no success.  Here's what I've learned about my current wiring:

Box 1, Cable 1:

W: Connected to B from Cable 2 

R: Connected to original dimmer red wire

B: Load, connected to original dimmer second red wire

 

Box 1, Cable 2:

W: Powered, connected to original dimmer black wire

B: Connected to W from Cable 1

 

Box 2:

B: Connected to black screw on original switch

R: Connected to brass screw opposite black screw on original switch

W: Connected to brass screw on other end of original switch

 

There are also 2 more cables in box 2, by the way.  Some of those wires are connected to another 3-way switch for another light away from the one I'm dealing with here. If needed, I can use one or more of those wires if this will be where I put the 2nd Insteon switch for the light I'm working on here.

 

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by Athlon

[asbril]

1 hour ago, Athlon said:

@dbuss - Thank you for your quick reply.

I've tried all sorts of combinations after reading the thread you pointed me to with no success.  Here's what I've learned about my current wiring:

Box 1, Cable 1:

W: Connected to B from Cable 2 

R: Connected to original dimmer red wire

B: Load, connected to original dimmer second red wire

 

Box 1, Cable 2:

W: Powered, connected to original dimmer black wire

B: Connected to W from Cable 1

 

Box 2:

B: Connected to black screw on original switch

R: Connected to brass screw opposite black screw on original switch

W: Connected to brass screw on other end of original switch

 

There are also 2 more cables in box 2, by the way.  Some of those wires are connected to another 3-way switch for another light away from the one I'm dealing with here. If needed, I can use one or more of those wires if this will be where I put the 2nd Insteon switch for the light I'm working on here.

 

 

I have several 3 (and 4) way setups. In one 3-way case the (auxiliary) switch box is in a concrete wall and a Zwave switch would not fit. I resolved this by replacing the main switch with an Inovelli ON/OFF switch and the auxiliary switch is just a plain old non-Zwave switch. The Inovelli wiring makes that possible and the 3-way works perfectly.

Edited September 17, 2018 by asbril

[Athlon]

@asbril Certainly a possibility for me.  Haven't had time to take a close look, but I would need them in almond.

I like puzzles, so I'll likely keep trying to figure out how to get my Insteon dimmers to work here.

[oberkc]

Atholon,

what you have here appears to me to be a switch loop.  Box1Cable2 comes from fixture, I believe.  White is supply, black is switched power back to the fixture.  Unfortunately, you have no neutral at this box (at this time) which explains why none of your combinations worked.

The RBW cable goes between your two switches, with red and black being the travelers and white being the switched power back to box 1 and, ultimately, to the fixture.

There are two potential options here.  One would be to use a micro module in the fixture box, linked to the two insteon switches.  This would require the re-purposing of the various conductors (not too hard).

The second option would be to steal neutral from box 2, but this assumes that there is a neutral AND (emphasis intended) that the other switch is powered by the SAME CIRCUIT BREAKER!  If not powered by the same circuit breaker, you are likely limited to option 1.

[Athlon]

2 hours ago, oberkc said:

Atholon,

what you have here appears to me to be a switch loop.  Box1Cable2 comes from fixture, I believe.  White is supply, black is switched power back to the fixture.  Unfortunately, you have no neutral at this box (at this time) which explains why none of your combinations worked.

The RBW cable goes between your two switches, with red and black being the travelers and white being the switched power back to box 1 and, ultimately, to the fixture.

There are two potential options here.  One would be to use a micro module in the fixture box, linked to the two insteon switches.  This would require the re-purposing of the various conductors (not too hard).

The second option would be to steal neutral from box 2, but this assumes that there is a neutral AND (emphasis intended) that the other switch is powered by the SAME CIRCUIT BREAKER!  If not powered by the same circuit breaker, you are likely limited to option 1.

Although I'm not home right now to take a look, there are white neutrals in box 2 (3 cables all together), and the light the other switch in box 2 controls is on the same circuit breaker.  Lucky me!

Where do I go from here?

Edited September 17, 2018 by Athlon

[asbril]

1 minute ago, Athlon said:

Although I'm not home right now to take a look, there are white neutrals in box 2 (3 cables all together), and the light the other switch in box 2 controls is on the same circuit breaker.  Lucky me!

Where do I go from here?

Others are far more qualified than I am, but these are my two cents.........  A regular Non-Zwave 3-way has 2 Traveller wires, while with Zwave (*) you only need 1.  As such you can use one of the two Traveller wires to bring Neutral to the switch.

(*) As mentioned before, Inovelli has a simpler 3-way connection that works great for me.

[asbril]

4 minutes ago, Athlon said:

edited just now by Athlon

Athlon, I definitely do not like your signature. It took me  a while to figure out that there was no fly on my screen.   

[oberkc]

Athlon

I think Asbril has it correct here.

If you have neutral in box 2 and IF the lights are all on the same circuit breaker (otherwise you have a risk of overloading the neutral conductor and causing a fire), you could tap into that neutral for the new insteon switches.  Only you know your confidence level regarding those two conditions, so I will leave it to you to take the risk or decide otherwise.  Do you have a voltmeter?  Do you know how to use it?  When you have all the wires disconnected and safely separated, find out for sure which conductor has 120VAC to confirm assumptions that it is the white conductor in box 1 from the RW cable.

In box 1, connect the white from the BW cable (assumed as supply, from fixture) to the black of the BWR cable.  (Put some black electrical tape on that white wire to identify that one as something other than a neutral.)  Connect those two conductors also to the black of the switch.  Connect the white from the BWR cable to the switch white (which will be soon be connected to neutral from box 2).  Connect the red from the switch to the black from the BW cable (assumed to the fixture).  Leave red from the RBW disconnected, capped with a wire nut.

In box 2, connect white to that neutral bundle, and also to switch white.  Connect switch black to the black from the BWR cable (which is now connected to supply in box 1).  Cap off switch red and cable red. 

Connect all grounds if available.

Link two switches into a virtual 3-way.

Done.

 

[Athlon]

@oberkc I know they are all on the same breaker, as I had the other light switched on as a sign I had the circuit breaker on or off while working on the one I want to automate.  I was up and down the basement stairs a lot yesterday, so I didn't want to forget if the breaker was on or off and I used the state of that light to know for sure.

As for the W in the 2nd cable of what I'm calling Box 1 having power - I used my voltmeter to discover that.  (I know how to use one.)  I already put black tape on that one.  I also have ground wire in both boxes.

As I'm not home yet, I may have time to try your wiring scheme tomorrow.  I'll report back here what happens.

Thank you all for your help!!

[Athlon]

1 hour ago, asbril said:

Athlon, I definitely do not like your signature. It took me  a while to figure out that there was no fly on my screen.   

Ha!  Perfect!!

[mwester]

Because somebody has to say it...  this thread seems to have passed the point of easy identification of a common wiring scenario, and is now in the area of experimentation and "try it and see"...

Line voltage is dangerous -- not only can you injure yourself, but a wiring mistake may result in a fire hazard.  Also know that many insurance companies will not cover damage done if the wiring is not performed by or alternately inspected by a licensed electrician.

With that caveat, carry on.

[oberkc]

36 minutes ago, mwester said:

Because somebody has to say it...  this thread seems to have passed the point of easy identification of a common wiring scenario, and is now in the area of experimentation and "try it and see"...

Line voltage is dangerous -- not only can you injure yourself, but a wiring mistake may result in a fire hazard.  Also know that many insurance companies will not cover damage done if the wiring is not performed by or alternately inspected by a licensed electrician.

With that caveat, carry on.

I would put this caveat on ALL electrical work.  If you don't feel confident that you know what you are doing, don't do it.

For the record, the original wiring (the switch loop) is a pretty common wiring scenario.  They certainly show up often in this forum.  The proposed solution is also pretty standard and has been recommended many times here, as well.

[asbril]

16 minutes ago, oberkc said:

I would put this caveat on ALL electrical work.  If you don't feel confident that you know what you are doing, don't do it.

For the record, the original wiring (the switch loop) is a pretty common wiring scenario.  They certainly show up often in this forum.  The proposed solution is also pretty standard and has been recommended many times here, as well.

I use a qualified electrician for any wiring issue, other than for replacing one Zwave switch for another, but have used info from this forum to guide my electrician on Zwave specificities..

Edited September 17, 2018 by asbril

[Athlon]

22 hours ago, oberkc said:

In box 1, connect the white from the BW cable (assumed as supply, from fixture) to the black of the BWR cable.  (Put some black electrical tape on that white wire to identify that one as something other than a neutral.)  Connect those two conductors also to the black of the switch.  Connect the white from the BWR cable to the switch white (which will be soon be connected to neutral from box 2).  Connect the red from the switch to the black from the BW cable (assumed to the fixture).  Leave red from the RBW disconnected, capped with a wire nut.

In box 2, connect white to that neutral bundle, and also to switch white.  Connect switch black to the black from the BWR cable (which is now connected to supply in box 1).  Cap off switch red and cable red. 

Connect all grounds if available.

Did this, and it almost works.  When I turn the second switch off to control the other light, power is also cut to the Insteon switch in box 1.  When that switch is on, the Insteon dimmer in box 1 controls the light I want it to control, by the way.  I did not attempt to 'program' the second switch, although that has power as well when the other switch is on.

To make this happen, I connected the W from box 1, the W from the new Insteon switch and the W from the other switch together.

Here is the original configuration of the cables in box 2:

Cable 1: B connected to black screw on switch I'm replacing, R connected to brass screw opposite black screw on I'm replacing, W connected to brass screw on other end of  I'm replacing

Cable 2: B goes to black screw on other switch, W goes to B from cable 3

Cable 3: W goes to brass screw opposite black screw on other switch, R goes to brass screw on other end of other switch (always has power), B goes to W from cable 2

 

Edited September 18, 2018 by Athlon

[lilyoyo1]

22 hours ago, mwester said:

Because somebody has to say it...  this thread seems to have passed the point of easy identification of a common wiring scenario, and is now in the area of experimentation and "try it and see"...

Line voltage is dangerous -- not only can you injure yourself, but a wiring mistake may result in a fire hazard.  Also know that many insurance companies will not cover damage done if the wiring is not performed by or alternately inspected by a licensed electrician.

With that caveat, carry on.

I agree. While a person may eventually figure things out, sometimes it's best to let an electrician do things. 

[oberkc]

Quote

there are white neutrals in box 2 (3 cables all together)

Athlon, did you not tell me that you had neutrals in box 2, three white wires connected together?  Did I misunderstand this statement?

Did you read the second post of this thread:

"First and foremost, for safety's sake, be aware that for any 3-way switch configuration, a white wire connected to the switch is never, ever a neutral wire."

If nothing more, please take a lesson from this that one cannot assume something is a neutral because of the color.

Given your latest description of the wiring in box 2, I think it is safe to state that you have NO NEUTRALS in that box either.  Please put the wires back the way they were.  Your only solution is the micro module in the fixture box.

I think I will stand admonished by  mwester and lilyoy1.

 

 

[Athlon]

@oberkc I wasn't clear when I talked about box 2 earlier.  That's on me.  I didn't remove the other switch there to see the 2 cables behind it until yesterday.  It was dumb of me to assume one of the whites I could see was a neutral.  I've installed several Insteon devices in my home over the years, and this is the first time I haven't had a neutral in a box.  And no, I missed that bit about a white wire connected to a switch.  My bad again.

Thank you very much for trying to help me here.

As for the micro switch idea - assuming it will fit behind the switch in box 1 - how will that impact the operation of the light if from the other switch I tried to replace in box 2?  I've never used a micro switch.  Also, will it even work without a neutral (I'm guessing no).

 

[oberkc]

The micro module must go, in this case, in the fixture box.  This will allow the re-purposing of the BW cable from fixture to box 1 to be line and neutral to the two switches.  B and W of the BWR cable would be connected, also, to line and neutral.  Red would be abandoned.  Neither of the switches would directly power the fixture, but be linked to the micro module via scene.

[Athlon]

1 hour ago, oberkc said:

The micro module must go, in this case, in the fixture box.  This will allow the re-purposing of the BW cable from fixture to box 1 to be line and neutral to the two switches.  B and W of the BWR cable would be connected, also, to line and neutral.  Red would be abandoned.  Neither of the switches would directly power the fixture, but be linked to the micro module via scene.

 

This sounds like a simple solution.  To be clear, I'll put the micro module in the ceiling, and an Insteon dimmer in each box on the wall.

I'll remove the cover from the fixture box today to make sure there is enough room and then order one.

By the way, is this the micro module I should get?  https://www.smarthome.com/insteon-2442-222-micro-dimmer-module.html

(2442-222)

[oberkc]

That is the one I use.  Sounds like you have it figured out.  Watch out for those white wires!  Make sure you correctly identify supply cable (white is neutral) versus cable to box 1.  There may also be other cables in there that go to distant locations.  If so, those whites would be all connected together with supply cable.

[giesen]

Did you ever take a look at what wires are at the fixture? Did you figure out where your hot/neutral from the panel are? Sure be pretty easy to figure that out if you detach all your wires, spread them apart, and check voltage between pairs.

Edited September 20, 2018 by giesen

[giesen]

I believe oberkc is correct that you have a switch loop, and the line from the panel is going into the fixture first. I've drawn it out here (please point out if I've made any mistakes in the original wiring):

Which is almost functionally identical to what's listed for a Lutron S-603P wiring diagram here:

http://www.lutron.com/TechnicalDocumentLibrary/368-4493_Page_5.pdf

The only thing that is throwing me off is I would have thought the white in Box 2 would have been connected to the common (black) screw on the 3-way switch, and that the light would come on in only 1 out of 4 possible combinations (instead of 2 out of four):

Combinations:

SW1-P1, SW2-P1: Current into common of SW1, out T1 of SW1 (red wire), into T1 of SW2, out common of SW2, back to T2 of SW1 -- Light Off
SW1-P2, SW2-P1: Current into common of SW1, out T2 of SW1 (black wire), into common of SW2, out T1 of SW2, back to T1 of SW1 -- Light Off
SW1-P1, SW2-P2: Current into common of SW1, out T1 of SW1 (red wire), into T1 of SW2 -- Light Off
SW1-P2, SW2-P2: Current into common of SW1, out T2 of SW1 (black wire), into common of SW2, out T2 of SW2 to fixture -- Light On

If you have both an (unswitched) hot and a neutral in box 2, you should be able to cap off the hot and neutral (individually) going to the fixture, cap off the red wire between both boxes, and wire as such:

 

Just make sure you document well how it was so you can put it back as necessary.

Note I am not an electrician, and take no responsibility for any harm that may come to you from anything posted here.

Edited September 20, 2018 by giesen

[giesen]

You can disregard the post above as I see now in one of your posts you have no neutrals at all in box 2. So yes, you are left with using a micro module, or (my preferred solution, but certainly not for the faint of heart) replacing cable 1 with a 3 conductor cable to get you a neutral in box 1.

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