Please help me wire a 3-Way

[Athlon]

@giesen Thank you for the work you did there.  I plan on taking the cover off of the fixture today.  I tried last night, but one of the screws is stripped, so I stopped and will do it today.  If there is nothing unusual up there, I will order the micro module today.

By the way, I'm trying to control a set of halogen 'strip lights' that surround a ceiling pot rack that hangs over an island in the kitchen.  That's why I have not tried to get up there to remove that thing until now.

[Athlon]

Okay - I'm not going to be removing the fixture.  I would need to remove at least one whole section of track to lower the electrical box so I can see what's above that for wires. My fear is not being able to 'catch' some of the molly holes again when I put the tracks back up.  Don't want to go there.  I was able to only see the two wires plus ground connected to my track lighting.

Do you know if this will solve my problem?  (Yes, I have Z-Wave in my ISY.)  It claims no neutral needed.

https://smile.amazon.com/JASCO-Wireless-Lighting-000-Watt-Incandescent/dp/B077VCKFKW/

 

 

 

[giesen]

43 minutes ago, Athlon said:

Okay - I'm not going to be removing the fixture.  I would need to remove at least one whole section of track to lower the electrical box so I can see what's above that for wires. My fear is not being able to 'catch' some of the molly holes again when I put the tracks back up.  Don't want to go there.  I was able to only see the two wires plus ground connected to my track lighting.

Do you know if this will solve my problem?  (Yes, I have Z-Wave in my ISY.)  It claims no neutral needed.

https://smile.amazon.com/JASCO-Wireless-Lighting-000-Watt-Incandescent/dp/B077VCKFKW/

 

 

 

What kind of lighting? Incandescent, halogen or LED? Also, Insteon makes a 2-wire dimmer as well:

https://www.smarthome.com/switchlinc-2-wire-dimmer-insteon-2474dwh-remote-control-dimmer-rf-white.html

But again only works for Incandescent/halogen. And not sure how it'd work in a 3-way setup. They work by always running the light at a very low voltage, stealing enough power to run themselves. This trick doesn't work with LED.

 

Also, if there's only two wires going into that box, then all our assumptions about how this thing is wired are wrong (refer to the first diagram I created)

 

Sent from my SM-N9500 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

[Athlon]

22 minutes ago, giesen said:

What kind of lighting? Incandescent, halogen or LED? Also, Insteon makes a 2-wire dimmer as well:

Also, if there's only two wires going into that box, then all our assumptions about how this thing is wired are wrong (refer to the first diagram I created)

Halogen track light bulbs.

Didn't say there were only 2 wires up there, said that's all I could see because I don't want to remove the plate.  I'd have to remove some of the tracks to do so and I don't want to do that.

[giesen]

Halogen track light bulbs. Didn't say there were only 2 wires up there, said that's all I could see because I don't want to remove the plate.  I'd have to remove some of the tracks to do so and I don't want to do that. 

 

You may be SOL then. I don't think those 2-wire dimmers can be used in a 3-way configuration (I could be wrong, if anyone knows different feel free to chime in) as there'd be no way to power the 2nd switch (you could do just one though).  Without going into the fixture box to install the micro dimmer, your only option left would be to pull a neutral into either box 1 or box 2 (which would probably mean cutting drywall; I've done it in my 70 year old house many times to replace switch loops and get neutrals or grounds to boxes but I realize it's not for everyone).

 

Of course the best solution which should bring you up to current code is replace that 2-conductor switch loop between box 1 and the fixture box with a 3-conductor cable so you can keep your switch loop and get a neutral in box 1.

 

Or get a licensed electrician in to have a look as he may have other ideas.

 

Sent from my SM-N9500 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jamison_IO]

sorry - completely whiffed. carry on

[Athlon]

I'm back to this.  I've lowered the ceiling fixture and have received my Micro Module Dimmer.

In the ceiling I have 3 cables, each with a Black and White wire.  Here is how they are connected:

Cable 1: B tied to bundle (W from cable 2 and B from cable 3) - W to W from cable 3 and to fixture

Cable 2: B to fixture - W to bundle as stated above

Cable 3: W to W from cable 1 and to fixture - B to bundle as stated above

 

Here are the original wire connections in boxes 1 & 2:

Box 1, Cable 1:

W: Connected to B from Cable 2 

R: Connected to original dimmer red wire

B: Load, connected to original dimmer second red wire

 

Box 1, Cable 2:

W: Powered, connected to original dimmer black wire

B: Connected to W from Cable 1

Here is the original configuration of the cables in box 2:

Cable 1: B connected to black screw on switch I'm replacing, R connected to brass screw opposite black screw on switch I'm replacing, W connected to brass screw on other end of switch I'm replacing

These two cables in box 2 are likely not involved, but here is how they are connected:

Cable 2: B goes to black screw on other switch in box 2, W goes to B from cable 3

Cable 3: W goes to brass screw opposite black screw on other switch in box 2, R goes to brass screw on other end of other switch in box 2, B goes to W from cable 2

 

How do I wire the micro module and each box?

 

 

[apostolakisl]

This thread is pretty long with lots of wire descriptions that give me a headache to read.

In short, if you are not someone who does this very often, you probably won't be able to just look at it and know right away what wiring technique was used.  The sure fire way to figure this out when you are kind of clueless, is to 

1) shut off power

2) remove all switches and fixtures and unsplice all associated wires from everything (you should just have free individual conductors now, nothing connected to anything).

Now you will have cables coming into each box with none of the conductors connected to anything.  Take an ohm meter and a piece of wire that is long enough to cover the distance between the various boxes and clip it to one of the two leads on your ohm meter.  Now, clip that wire to one of the conductors in box 1.  Go to box 2 and touch the other ohm meter lead to each wire until you find one that ohms out.  If none do, go to box 3.  Once you find out which wire it is, label both ends.  Whatever wires are jacketed together with it, should also be opposite ends of the same conductor.  You can ohm them out just to be sure.  Once you have all this done, you should find that only a single black and white don't ohm out, those would be your hot and neutral from the main panel.  You can turn the power one and test that you get 120v to be certain.

Once you have your wires positively labeled, draw it out on a piece of paper and follow the directions that came with the Insteon device.

[Athlon]

@apostolakisl Thank you for taking the time.  I will do as you suggested as soon as I'm able to and report back here. (I never leave a thread open.)

I've installed about 25 Insteon devices around my home over the years, and this is the first time I didn't have a neutral in a switch box, and it's really throwing me off.

As for what you mean by 'ohms out', I assume you mean '0' on my ohm meter (set to 2k).

 

[apostolakisl]

2 minutes ago, Athlon said:

@apostolakisl Thank you for taking the time.  I will do as you suggested as soon as I'm able to and report back here. (I never leave a thread open.)

I've installed about 25 Insteon devices around my home over the years, and this is the first time I didn't have a neutral in a switch box, and it's really throwing me off.

As for what you mean by 'ohms out', I assume you mean '0' on my ohm meter (set to 2k).

 

yes, ~0 ohms.  Typically they have a buzzer mode that sounds when there is ~0 ohms so you don't have to look at the screen.

If you don't have a neutral anywhere in the box, it might be that you can repurpose a wire that is no longer needed.  When you go from regular hard wired 3 way switches to Insteon, you end up with unused wires that can be spliced into a neutral at one of the other boxes.  When you get all the wires mapped out, you can see if you can make it happen.

[Athlon]

1 minute ago, apostolakisl said:

yes, ~0 ohms.  Typically they have a buzzer mode that sounds when there is ~0 ohms so you don't have to look at the screen.

If you don't have a neutral anywhere in the box, it might be that you can repurpose a wire that is no longer needed.  When you go from regular hard wired 3 way switches to Insteon, you end up with unused wires that can be spliced into a neutral at one of the other boxes.  When you get all the wires mapped out, you can see if you can make it happen.

Will do. 

For the Insteon dimmers I'm going to put in each box, I believe you told me earlier they won't need the red lead - only the neutral and hot is needed for them if the module has all three connections,  neutral, hot (line) and load. I may repurpose wires from the fixture for that.

[apostolakisl]

14 minutes ago, Athlon said:

Will do. 

For the Insteon dimmers I'm going to put in each box, I believe you told me earlier they won't need the red lead - only the neutral and hot is needed for them if the module has all three connections,  neutral, hot (line) and load. I may repurpose wires from the fixture for that.

It depends on where you want to run the load wire.  If you have 2 insteon switches controlling one load, only one will need a load wire.  Color doesn't have to follow anything specific on 3-ways.  Of course the bare ground wire always needs to be used strictly as a ground.

[oberkc]

This is a standard switch loop.

Lets start with box 2.  There is only one cable (number 1) connected to the switch in question, correct?  This is, in my estimation, the other end of cable 1 of box 1.  None of the other cables in box 2 matter and should be left alone.

In box 1, cable 1 is the other end of cable 1 from box 2.  Box 1, cable 2 is the other end of cable 2 at the fixture.

At the fixture, cable 1 is supply.  Cable 2 goes to box 1.  Cable 3 goes to additional fixtures controlled by these same two switches.

If you follow apostilakisl’ advice, carry it further and confirm voltage between B and W of fixtre cable 1.  There should be no voltage between any other cable pairs.

To install the micromodule and insteon switches....

At the fixture, connect all blacks together, including black from module, but exculding black from fixture.  Connect all whites together, including module and fixture.  Connect red from module to fixture black.  All grounds go together.

At box 1, connect B from cables 1 and 2 together, along with switch black.  All whites from cables 1 and 2 go together, along with white from switch.  Cap  red wires from cable 1 and from switch.

At box 2, connect black to switch black.  Connect W to switch white.  Cap red from cable 1 and from switch.

Applying power at this point should energize all three new insteon devices.

Creat a scene with switches 1 and 2 as controllersm module as responder.  Set responder levels as desired.  

Done.

[Athlon]

3 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

It depends on where you want to run the load wire.  If you have 2 insteon switches controlling one load, only one will need a load wire.  Color doesn't have to follow anything specific on 3-ways.  Of course the bare ground wire always needs to be used strictly as a ground.

Sorry to keep bothering you, but this statement confuses me.  I'm going to have 3 Insteon devices controlling one load.  The module will be in the ceiling at the load, and the two dimmer switches will be in boxes at each end of the room.

The module will be wired as if it were the only Insteon device (load, neutral and line), and the two switches will each need neutral and line.  I haven't tested the wires yet, but i know I will have to grab a neutral from the ceiling for each dimmer and most likely a line as well. I will cap off the red wires from the two dimmer switches and all other unused wires in the boxes.

Does this sound correct to you?

[oberkc]

9 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

It depends on where you want to run the load wire.  If you have 2 insteon switches controlling one load, only one will need a load wire.  Color doesn't have to follow anything specific on 3-ways.  Of course the bare ground wire always needs to be used strictly as a ground.

If I understand correctly, neither of the switches will control the load.  There are insufficient conductors in place for this, thus the micro module.  Load will be connected to the micromodule.

[oberkc]

2 minutes ago, Athlon said:

Sorry to keep bothering you, but this statement confuses me.  I'm going to have 3 Insteon devices controlling one load.  The module will be in the ceiling at the load, and the two dimmer switches will be in boxes at each end of the room.

The module will be wired as if it were the only Insteon device (load, neutral and line), and the two switches will each need neutral and line.  I haven't tested the wires yet, but i know I will have to grab a neutral from the ceiling for each dimmer and most likely a line as well. I will cap off the red wires from the two dimmer switches and all other unused wires in the boxes.

Does this sound correct to you?

Yes, this sounds correct.

[apostolakisl]

1 minute ago, Athlon said:

Sorry to keep bothering you, but this statement confuses me.  I'm going to have 3 Insteon devices controlling one load.  The module will be in the ceiling at the load, and the two dimmer switches will be in boxes at each end of the room.

The module will be wired as if it were the only Insteon device (load, neutral and line), and the two switches will each need neutral and line.  I haven't tested the wires yet, but i know I will have to grab a neutral from the ceiling for each dimmer and most likely a line as well. I will cap off the red wires from the two dimmer switches and all other unused wires in the boxes.

Does this sound correct to you?

If you have the ability to cap a wire off, it probably means you don't need to use a micro-module.  You need a bare minimum of 2 conductors in each box where one can be connected to a neutral and one to hot at the other end of said wires.  If none of the boxes have any conductors left over after you do that, then you need a micro-module.  If there are any conductors left between the load and any of the boxes, you can make that switch the load switch and get rid of the micro-module.  Realize you can run neutrals and hots from box to box or box to load or any way that gets it there.

[oberkc]

Athlon, please make sure you go back and be sure you have read all the posts.  We have had a lot of overlapping posts.  I have suggested a solution, but I recommend that you draw my recommendation out and see if it becomes clear to you.  Clearly, my view and apostolakisl’s are different.

[Athlon]

Got it, gentlemen.  Thank you.  I'll be attempting to do this between now and Saturday sometime.

@oberkc "At the fixture, connect all blacks together, including black from module, but exculding black from fixture.  Connect all whites together, including module and fixture.  Connect red from module to fixture black.  All grounds go together."

The module doesn't have any wires, except for the two 'sense' wires (yellow and purple) which I assume will go unused. It has 2 connections for neutral, 1 for Load, and 1 for Line. (Screw connections, uncolored.) It's the Insteon 2442-222.

 

 

[oberkc]

3 minutes ago, Athlon said:

Got it, gentlemen.  Thank you.  I'll be attempting to do this between now and Saturday sometime.

@oberkc "At the fixture, connect all blacks together, including black from module, but exculding black from fixture.  Connect all whites together, including module and fixture.  Connect red from module to fixture black.  All grounds go together."

The module doesn't have any wires, except for the two 'sense' wires (yellow and purple) which I assume will go unused. It has 2 connections for neutral, 1 for Load, and 1 for Line. (Screw connections, uncolored.) It's the Insteon 2442-222.

 

 

Sorry.  When I said “module black”, this would be the “line” connection.  You may need to add a short wire extension from the bundle of blacks.  “Module white” is neutral connection.  “Module red” is load connection.  

Yes, the sense wires will be unused in this case.  Ironically, you could use your existing two switches with the micromodule sense wires and have complete automation control.

[Athlon]

3 minutes ago, oberkc said:

Sorry.  When I said “module black”, this would be the “line” connection.  You may need to add a short wire extension from the bundle of blacks.  “Module white” is neutral connection.  “Module red” is load connection.  

Yes, the sense wires will be unused in this case.  Ironically, you could use your existing two switches with the micromodule sense wires and have complete automation control.

Yup - but the wife will want to use a physical dimmer as well.  I'll also take your suggestion about drawing it out first as well before I rip into it.

[oberkc]

And the insteon switches have all the fancy LEDs which satisfies the geek side.

[asbril]

1 hour ago, oberkc said:

And the insteon switches have all the fancy LEDs which satisfies the geek side.

So do Homeseer Zwave Series 200 switches

[Athlon]

Got it done and working!  Thank you for all of your help!!

The only thing I haven't figured out yet is how to sync the two dimmers and their dimming levels to the module in the fixture. They both turn the module (fixture) on and off, though, which is great!

I used this to get it done:  @oberkc "At the fixture, connect all blacks together, including black from module, but excluding black from fixture.  Connect all whites together, including module and fixture.  Connect red from module to fixture black.  All grounds go together."

Before I did that, I figured out how to get neutral and line to each box using my voltmeter to power the dimmers: @apostolakisl

 

[randrews]

https://www.insteon.com/support-knowledgebase/2016/8/15/installing-multi-way-circuits