Gradual Transition From X-10? UD PLM Is Weak?

[Convastor]

We currently have a lot of X-10 devices.  All sixteen addresses are in-use.  It once-upon-a-time worked fairly well, but not for several years--since bunches of other electronic devices have been added to the house.  I installed one-or-another "phase bridge/coupler" in the distribution panel, years ago.  Didn't seem to make much difference.  Tried a SmartHome repeater/amplifier.  It actually helps--when it's not off in the weeds.  Then it actually degrades performance.

 Lacking that device, there is no one spot in the home from which a controller can hit every device in the house.

Been looking for a Way Out and a Way Forward for years.  The ISY994iZW/IR PRO (INSTEON / Z-Wave Automation Controller 1024 devices/scenes 1000 programs IR input capabilities [RC5]) looked encouraging, but then I read this:

Quote

My experience coming from a TW523 or ACT TI 103 to the PLM is that the PLM is a weaker X10 transmitter.

in the using old X10 appliance modules? thread.

The ISY will have to be plugged into about the worst branch circuit in the house, because that's where I'll need the IR receiver.  It's one of the biggest/longest, and busiest/dirtiest circuits.  (It's got the entire home theater system, at one end, and most of the computer room, on the other end, on it.)

My hope was to acquire the ISY and replace only as many X-10 devices with Z-Wave devices as absolutely necessary, right away, then replace the remainder over time.  But if the UD PLM is even weaker than my current X-10 controllers, I fear I may find myself with $314 worth of controller needing another $200, $300, or more worth of switches and dimmers right out of the gate, which is not going to fly.

Thoughts?  Thanks!

[Brian H]

The 2413S PLM used by the ISY994i. Has a specification of 3.2 Volt signal into a 5 Ohms load. Most X10 controllers are 5 volts or more. Though I don't remember if the specification was at 5 Ohms. So I would say it will probably be weaker. X10 support is no longer listed on the 2413S PLM sales site but as far as I know X10 still works with it. My V2.4 sends and receives X10 power line commands

Have you done any noise and signal sucking troubleshooting?  http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm

Do you have a phase coupler between the two incoming power lines? If it is a repeater do you know its part number? Some X10 repeaters would see the end of an Insteon message as an X10 command. Trying  to duplicate what it thought was an X10 one and sometimes cause issue.

Since the Insteon Modules have a power line transmitter in them. They can absorb some of the power line signal strength. Insteon resend message in the mesh network but not X10. Some have found as more Insteon Modules are added. The Insteon system gets better and X10 may get less reliable.

Most of the Insteon Wall Switches use a Neutral power connection. If you have two wire X10 wall switch dimmers. Check to see if there is a Neutral bundle in the back of the electrical box. If not some wiring may have to be changed or you would have to use the Insteon module made for two wire incandescent loads.

[lilyoyo1]

3 hours ago, Convastor said:

We currently have a lot of X-10 devices.  All sixteen addresses are in-use.  It once-upon-a-time worked fairly well, but not for several years--since bunches of other electronic devices have been added to the house.  I installed one-or-another "phase bridge/coupler" in the distribution panel, years ago.  Didn't seem to make much difference.  Tried a SmartHome repeater/amplifier.  It actually helps--when it's not off in the weeds.  Then it actually degrades performance.

 Lacking that device, there is no one spot in the home from which a controller can hit every device in the house.

Been looking for a Way Out and a Way Forward for years.  The ISY994iZW/IR PRO (INSTEON / Z-Wave Automation Controller 1024 devices/scenes 1000 programs IR input capabilities [RC5]) looked encouraging, but then I read this:

in the using old X10 appliance modules? thread.

The ISY will have to be plugged into about the worst branch circuit in the house, because that's where I'll need the IR receiver.  It's one of the biggest/longest, and busiest/dirtiest circuits.  (It's got the entire home theater system, at one end, and most of the computer room, on the other end, on it.)

My hope was to acquire the ISY and replace only as many X-10 devices with Z-Wave devices as absolutely necessary, right away, then replace the remainder over time.  But if the UD PLM is even weaker than my current X-10 controllers, I fear I may find myself with $314 worth of controller needing another $200, $300, or more worth of switches and dimmers right out of the gate, which is not going to fly.

Thoughts?  Thanks!

Personally I'd replace everything at once if the cost is a few hundred bucks and you're that concerned about things not working properly with the plm.

For starters, zwave is a different beast all together. Depending on where things are going, you may need devices in places you're not planning on changing out just to get the signal to devices that may be close by. 

My next reason is time. If you're spending a considerable time troubleshooting to get things working right, the cost in dollars may be worthwhile to have a working and stable system rather than spending hours on end getting stuff to work only for it to be flakey

[Convastor]

Thanks for the follow-ups and additional information, guys. Looks like an ISY is not going to be my solution, after all. Oh well, on to other projects.

 

[Brian H]

Some X10 users. That want to keep using X10 and have issues with communications. Have used a JV Digital Engineering XTB-IIR coupler repeater with good results.

I know it blasts over a 10 volt X10 signal back on to the power lines.

[Convastor]

5 hours ago, Brian H said:

Some X10 users. That want to keep using X10 and have issues with communications. Have used a JV Digital Engineering XTB-IIR coupler repeater with good results.

I know it blasts over a 10 volt X10 signal back on to the power lines.

Thanks, Brian.  I've been toying with the idea of getting one of those for years.  But I hate to invest more in X10 when the plan is to phase X-10 out.

Then again: Doing a bunch of idle browsing whilst watching TV with my wife, last night, I've found many comments to the effect of there being certain things X10 still does best.  Appliance modules seems to be one of those things.  So maybe I'll just bite the bullet and order one of JVD's XTB-IIR's.

I did find SmartHome's own PLM's specs say "Insteon Minimum Transmit Level: 3.2 Vpp into 5 Ohms," so I guess there's no room to nick UD on theirs doing the same.

My problem, going with the XTB-IIR route, is then turning around and trying to justify to the family CFO why I need to then spend $314 for a controller.  She wasn't born yesterday, has little appreciation for home automation, and we've been married for nigh on 27 years, so there's no dazzling her with brilliance or baffling her with bull**** ;).

Part of the reason my wife is sceptical of HA is one of my best friends, who had a tendency to let his geek side get away from him, went nuts on their new home.  Then cancer got him :(.  Even I couldn't make sense of what he'd done with Insteon in that house.  Never mind the alarm system that was somehow integrated with everything.  To add insult to injury: He'd apparently changed his keyring's password/phrase sometime between the time he'd shared it with his wife and son and the time he passed away, so everybody was locked out of everything.

[Brian H]

The PLM for a ISY994i is a Smarthome product so as you said no control on how strong a power line signal it sends.

The 2413S/2413U and hardware revision 2 of the 2443 Access Points. All have a reputation to have a failing power supply at about two years and a few months old. There is a very big thread here on how we have rebuilt ours. I can't say about the latest revision PLM as Smarthome says that have found the problem and it is fixed. Only time will tell if they got it right this time.

I understand not wanting to update an X10 system. Who knows how long the present owners will keep it going. After a few years ago X10WTI went bankrupt.

[Convastor]

Well, that explains the PLM, then.

Yeah, I'd read about the SmartHome PLMs on their site.  "We have identified an issue... To prevent such an issue from occurring we introduced a hardware change...", but no offers to make owners of the defective devices whole.  This, the unacceptable behaviour of the BoosterLinc I bought from them, and the pre-Insteon serial device I have that "hears" but does not "talk,"  that literally died sitting in a desk drawer, causes me to shy away from SmartHome products.  IMO their products are not well-designed or well-built, and SH does not stand behind them.  To add insult to injury: They charge top dollar for their stuff.

As for how long X10 will remain extant: Who knows?  In my case it's not a question of not wanting to replace it, but not being able to justify an outlay in excess of $650 just in wall switches, appliance modules, and lamp dimmer modules, alone.  Never mind the four controllers in use, one of which has an IR receiver that enables us to control lighting levels in the family room, which, oddly enough, nobody else has seen fit to replicate--other than UD... on a $300+ device.

It's like the one smart home device manufacturer, don't recall whom it was or what protocol, that had no appliance modules in their product line.  Srsly?