Motion Sensor II On-Only

[simplextech]

Is this behavior normal for the MS II?  In On-Only the status is always "On" and never flips to off even when there is no motion.  With the older sensor I have for testing the 2420M I also have it setup for On-Only and it works correctly and flips the status in ISY back to off when there's no motion.

Goal:

Scene to only turn on a switch by motion.  I will use a program to turn the light off based upon several other conditions.

The reason for using a scene is for the speed of the motion -> light on function rather than the incurred delay of motion -> ISY -> Program -> Switch.  I know the delay is not huge (tested) but my goal is for the fastest response time possible which would be direct.  I'm hoping this is possible with the MS II.  If not is this an Insteon change or a ISY firmware issue with the new MS II?

[jec6613]

I found this thread instructive: 

 

[simplextech]

It was very interesting about the ISY programs indeed.

Something interesting.  I went back to the older 2420M and made sure through ISY Config that it was also set to On Only and it behaves the same as the MS II whereas the ISY status always displays ON and never switches to Off even with no motion.

If this is normal behavior (I don't know, still new to Insteon) then I will need two motion sensors in the target room.

• Sensor 1 as a scene controller to turn on the light
• Sensor 2 in normal mode to use in a program to update the on/off status of motion in the room as a condition
• Existing door sensor to determine if the door is open/closed as a condition

Alternative is to use 1 sensor but lose the speed of the direct link from MS -> Switch

I'm hoping I'm just missing something being new to this.

[simplextech]

So it would seem that the 'On Only' by design never sets a status back to off and is meant to rely on another source to initiate Off?  Please inform me if I'm wrong.  So to meet my goal I would need the 2 motion sensor scenario to get the speed of the scene but the flexibility of using additional conditions to perform the Off decision of essentially detecting the 'No Motion' status.

[kclenden]

My MS II always shows a status of ON.  This makes sense to me as the only way the ISY would know it was off is if it received an OFF command.  Interestingly enough, even if I query the one MS II that I have powered by USB, it still shows a status of ON.  So either the ISY does not receive status from the MS II, or the MS II internally thinks of itself as ON because it never sends an OFF command.

You don't need another MS.  You can use a program timer, just like is discussed in the thread to which jec6613 linked.  If you don't actually want to shut the device controlled by the MS off at the time the timer expires, simply set a state variable.   Something like:

IF
	'MSII.motion' is switched ON
THEN
	$sMSII_State = 1
	Wait 2 minutes
	$sMSII_State = 0
Else

So long a motion continues to be detected the WAIT command will be interrupted and the THEN restarted ensuring that $sMSII_State is equal to 1.  If no motion is detected for 2 minutes, then $sMSII_State will be set to 0.  You can then use $sMSII_State as an indicator of the MS state and use it to trigger other programs that have other conditions besides $sMSII_State = 0.

[simplextech]

Thanks very much for the excerpt and explanation.  I probably completely glossed over that in the other posting and didn't even realize the information was there.  

So I can incorporate this with my existing logic combining the motion + door sensor using the state variable to determine the truth of motion.  Again thanks for the info and example.

 

[larryllix]

My motion sensors only send on commands also.

Each MS is used in at least three different programs, as well as a scene with it's own lamp module, to speed up the on response. No variable is required.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[simplextech]

11 hours ago, kclenden said:

My MS II always shows a status of ON.  This makes sense to me as the only way the ISY would know it was off is if it received an OFF command.  Interestingly enough, even if I query the one MS II that I have powered by USB, it still shows a status of ON.  So either the ISY does not receive status from the MS II, or the MS II internally thinks of itself as ON because it never sends an OFF command.

You don't need another MS.  You can use a program timer, just like is discussed in the thread to which jec6613 linked.  If you don't actually want to shut the device controlled by the MS off at the time the timer expires, simply set a state variable.   Something like:

IF
	'MSII.motion' is switched ON
THEN
	$sMSII_State = 1
	Wait 2 minutes
	$sMSII_State = 0
Else

So long a motion continues to be detected the WAIT command will be interrupted and the THEN restarted ensuring that $sMSII_State is equal to 1.  If no motion is detected for 2 minutes, then $sMSII_State will be set to 0.  You can then use $sMSII_State as an indicator of the MS state and use it to trigger other programs that have other conditions besides $sMSII_State = 0.

I have done this and the On portion and setting the variable works as expected.

However a question regarding ISY programs.  Can a variable be used as a trigger for program?  In my next program to turn off the light I have it set

if $var is = 0 then turn off light

It never re-evaluates and the program is always true.  If I manually run it then it works fine, which makes me question if a variable can be used as the trigger.  After the wait from the first program I see that the variable does get changed to 0 but the next program is never triggered.

[GlowingHair]

Is your variable integer or state? Only state variables can act as a trigger. 

[simplextech]

In the variable there's the 'int' parameter and it's set to 0.  Should it be set differently?

I know I need to do more reading of the docs.... but seems that a parameter such as int/state could at least in the console be int = 0 / state = 1 or something in the parameter title?

 

[EDIT] went back and looked and I never even noticed the tab for Integer/State at the top.... I need to pay closer attention.

[simplextech]

Simple change and all is well.... thanks for pointing out the int/state variables @GlowingHair

[kclenden]

12 hours ago, larryllix said:

Each MS is used in at least three different programs, as well as a scene with it's own lamp module, to speed up the on response. No variable is required.

I think what simplextech wants to do is use the MS status in conjunction with other conditions to determine when to shut off the MS controlled device.  So perhaps something like "if the motion sensor status is OFF and the door is CLOSED then shut off the light".  Since the door might be open when the motion sensor quits sensing motion, he needs a way to save the MS status so that when the door is finally closed the light will be shut off.

[simplextech]

24 minutes ago, kclenden said:

I think what simplextech wants to do is use the MS status in conjunction with other conditions to determine when to shut off the MS controlled device.  So perhaps something like "if the motion sensor status is OFF and the door is CLOSED then shut off the light".  Since the door might be open when the motion sensor quits sensing motion, he needs a way to save the MS status so that when the door is finally closed the light will be shut off.

I was able to get this to work as I was hoping for.  

Basic info....

Bathroom Scene

• Motion Sensor II On Only
• Dual Band Dimmer
• Contact Sensor on Door

MSII on motion turns on the Dimmer and a program watches for the switch and sets a state variable to 1 waits 30 seconds and if motion restarts if no motion it then sets the state variable to 0.

Another program watches the state variable and when it changes to 0 and bathroom door is Open then it turns off the light.  I had this working with ISY and programs and I also now have it working with HomeSeer + ISYInsteon plugin as well.  

[jec6613]

So, I found another quirk.  When you change a MS II to have two motion nodes, it creates a second node called "Motion Off" … which will transmit an, "On," signal when the motion times out.  So you can have a built-in motion sensor timeout and it transmit an off by transmitting an On to this inverse node, which means its built in, "Off," command can be used by programs without being tied to a scene with the Motion On.  Pretty slick.  

[simplextech]

2 hours ago, jec6613 said:

So, I found another quirk.  When you change a MS II to have two motion nodes, it creates a second node called "Motion Off" … which will transmit an, "On," signal when the motion times out.  So you can have a built-in motion sensor timeout and it transmit an off by transmitting an On to this inverse node, which means its built in, "Off," command can be used by programs without being tied to a scene with the Motion On.  Pretty slick.  

I messed with this a little bit last night however in the "On Only" I never saw the "Motion Off" node change at all.  It was late and I may have not been diligent so if you find it works differently I'd love to know.  

[jec6613]

45 minutes ago, simplextech said:

I messed with this a little bit last night however in the "On Only" I never saw the "Motion Off" node change at all.  It was late and I may have not been diligent so if you find it works differently I'd love to know.   

I tried it out today on one of my hard wired sensors.  Just like the Motion On node doesn't change and will only send an On, ditto with the Motion Off - it'll always be stuck on On.  However, it does send a command each time (at least for me).

[simplextech]

1 minute ago, jec6613 said:

I tried it out today on one of my hard wired sensors.  Just like the Motion On node doesn't change and will only send an On, ditto with the Motion Off - it'll always be stuck on On.  However, it does send a command each time (at least for me).

Cool so I wasn't remembering it wrong.  I used the state variable method method before in a program and it's working very well.