Sensors Stopped Working at Same Time

[SteveSBE]

Hi - 

A couple days ago my 16 motion sensors (versions 1 & 2) and 13 leak sensors lost connectivity with my system...all at the same time. They showed no information when I selected them in the Admin panel and all programs that referenced  or depended on on them did not work. After some troubleshooting I discovered that the only way to make them work again was to restore each sensor...one at a time.  Needless to say the restore process was very time consuming since these sensors were spread all over the house and some were difficult to get to.  

I am pretty confident that no other other devices or device types were "lost".  I also cannot remember anything that I did on the system that I believe would have caused this.  But I am interested in preventing this situation in the future and am wondering what types of situations could cause this issue.  

So my question is...   What things could have caused all of these motion and leak sensors to be "lost" in the system at exactly the same time?    My system's information is below.   

Thanks, 

Steve

 

 

 

[Techman]

If your ISY was rebooted and/or lost power then the status windows of your RF devices will be blank in the admin console until that RF device sends an update  signal.

By manually restoring each RF device you forced them to update the admin console.

 

[SteveSBE]

Hi Techman - 

Thanks...Sorry for this late reply to your answer...I thought I had responded earlier...

I should have been more clear on my issue. I knew that the RF modules started out blank until there was an update signal sent to the ISY. My real problem was that the ISY programs that were to be triggered by these devices were not triggered. All programs that were to be triggered by these devices did not not recognize signals from the motion and leak sensors. It's like the ISY forgot them.

I don't know if this is a related or the same issue but I also just found that the ISY is not recognizing my 8-button KeypadLinc.  Devices other than the ISY that are linked to the KPL do work correctly.  However the ISY will not recognize changes when I press the KPL keys --- the status of the KPL buttons does not change and the programs I created for the KPL buttons will not be triggered. 

Any advice would be appreciated.

Steve

[smokegrub]

Have you tried rebooting the PLM?

 

[SteveSBE]

I'm not sure what you mean by reboot. (I cannot find that command in the Admin menu.)  I have unplugged it and plugged it back in. However I have not performed a factory reset on the PLM nor have I used the "Delete Modem" or "Restore Modem" commands.  Do you mean one of those or something else?   

In post https://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/24490-problem-receiving-status-updates-from-kpl/?do=findComment&comment=244072 Michel provided link https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=INSTEON_No_Status_Feedback_From_Devices to count and evaluate PLM links.  Per that link, I used commands Tools | Diagnostics | Show PLM Link Table to count the number of links on the PLM and compare them the the number of nodes (devices) on the left side of the Admin constol. The instructions say that there should be at least twice as many links in the PLM Link Table than the number of nodes on the Admin console.  I had a count of 87 on the PLM Link Table and counted 97 notes on the left side of the Admin console.  This seems to indicate that the PLM is missing some entries.   

is that the case?   If so, is the only course to fix this to use the File \ Delete Modem command followed by the File | Restore Modem command?   Are there instructions specifically for Admin Console v4.7.3 to do this? 

FWIW...I created a spreadsheet (attached) to estimate the number of PLM links and believe I have just under 300 links...well under the 900 and some links the PLM can handle.  (My multipliers per device in column C are gleaned from previous forum posts that I could find so let me know if you believe any are incorrect.)

Thanks, 

Steve

 

2019 04 04 Link Estimate.pdf

[Bumbershoot]

12 minutes ago, SteveSBE said:

If so, is the only course to fix this to use the File \ Delete Modem command followed by the File | Restore Modem command?

NO, don't DELETE the PLM (modem)!  You'll just cause yourself trouble.  It sounds as if your PLM might be giving up the ghost.  You can try a RESTORE modem, but I'd probably get a new one on order sooner than later.

[SteveSBE]

That extra PLM I bought may come in handy then...

Steve

[Techman]

If all your other devices are working then the problem is not with the PLM

If you put one of the battery devices in the linking mode then do a restore device does it then function properly?

[SteveSBE]

Techman -

If you talking about my initial email concerning the motion and leak sensors, I said in my initial post that they worked when I restored them.  I had to individually restore each one. Yes, they function properly.

If you are talking about the 8-button KeyPadLinc, I have not tried to restore that.

It seems that my PLM link count very low when I run it from Tools | Diagnostics. Why is that? Doesn't that indicate some kind of problem with the PLM?

[Techman]

RE: your 8 button KPL, do a factory reset on the KPL then a restore device. If it still fails to work then the KPL may have failed.

The PLM link counts are approximate. It's best to run the link count when you have no or little ISY activity. Try running it at different times. You'll notice the link count will vary and that's normal.

The count of 300 seems on the low side if you have 97 physical devices.

If the KPL is your only current issue then I would focus on the KPL and not the PLM

 

[SteveSBE]

On 4/5/2019 at 4:31 PM, Techman said:

RE: your 8 button KPL, do a factory reset on the KPL then a restore device. If it still fails to work then the KPL may have failed.

The PLM link counts are approximate. It's best to run the link count when you have no or little ISY activity. Try running it at different times. You'll notice the link count will vary and that's normal.

The count of 300 seems on the low side if you have 97 physical devices.

If the KPL is your only current issue then I would focus on the KPL and not the PLM

 

Hi - 

RE: Admin Console issue for KPL & Sensors (& maybe others)
I restored my KPL and it works fine.  But now back to my original question...   A restore is what I had to do for ALL of my sensors and now the KPL. And maybe there are other devices that I have also not noticed.  But I still don't have an answer as to what would cause the Admin console to loose connectivity with those devices seemingly at the same time. Thoughts?

RE: Number of links
I know that the count of links differs each time I run Admin function Diagnostics | Show PLM Links Table.  I've run it multiple times over multiple days and the highest I have ever gotten is 109 links. Besides using the Admin function Diagnostics | Show PLM Links Table, I manually calculated the number of links (294) using a physical count of devices and device/scene instances which was found in the spreadsheet I attached in an earlier post. The method of determination (physical count or a formula) are found in the heading of each column. The formulas in the right table use the factors in the left table (gleaned from previous forum posts).   I re-attached to this post the original 2019 04 04 Link Estimate.PDF file and attached table 2019 04 04 Link Estimate.PDF in which I revised the formula for column L which increased the link count (495).   Are either of these tables a more accurate way to count my links than using the Diagnostics | Show PLM Links Table? 

Thanks, 

Steve

2019 04 04 Link Estimate.xlsx 2019 04 07 Link Estimate.pdf

[Techman]

If you had  even a momentary surge in your powerline it could cause some of the issues you mentioned. I have my ISY on a UPS however the PLM needs to be directly plugged into an outlet. I have my ISY send me an email anytime it reboots. Being that you're in an area subject to severe weather conditions you may be more prone to powerline fluctuations.

What's the version number and date code on your PLM. If it's an older model it may not be dual band which could weaken your Insteon mesh network.

Do you have dual band devices close to your RF only devices?

Take a look at these troubleshooting tips.  https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=INSTEON:_Troubleshooting_Communications_Errors

 

 

 

[kclenden]

On 4/7/2019 at 4:31 PM, SteveSBE said:

But I still don't have an answer as to what would cause the Admin console to loose connectivity with those devices seemingly at the same time. Thoughts?

The Admin Console does not have connectivity with those devices.  It has connectivity with the PLM and the PLM has connectivity with those devices.  When you link a device to the ISY, you're really linking the device to the PLM.  When that happens, four tables are built: 1) A table of links in the device, 2) A table of links in the PLM, 3) A copy of the table of links in the device held by the ISY, 4) A copy of the table of links in the PLM held by the ISY.

What has likely happened is that the table of links in your PLM was corrupted.  This would mean that when the ISY tells the PLM to talk to a device, the PLM can't do it because it doesn't have the correct entry in its table that links it to the device.  This would also mean that if a device sends a status update to the PLM, the PLM ignores it because without the correct links in its table it doesn't recognize the device.

So you do a restore device which means the ISY uses its copy of the PLM table and device table to rebuild the entry for that device in the PLM and rebuild the table of links in the device.  These rebuilt links would also include links for any scenes to which the device had been enrolled.

A corruption of the PLM table of links could be a symptom of a failing PLM, but it also could be a symptom of a one-time event like a power surge.

 

[SteveSBE]

On 4/7/2019 at 7:41 PM, Techman said:

If you had  even a momentary surge in your powerline it could cause some of the issues you mentioned. I have my ISY on a UPS however the PLM needs to be directly plugged into an outlet. I have my ISY send me an email anytime it reboots. Being that you're in an area subject to severe weather conditions you may be more prone to powerline fluctuations.

What's the version number and date code on your PLM. If it's an older model it may not be dual band which could weaken your Insteon mesh network.

Do you have dual band devices close to your RF only devices?

Take a look at these troubleshooting tips.  https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=INSTEON:_Troubleshooting_Communications_Errors

 

 

 

My 2413S PLM is v2.2. There is no date but the number 1622 below the version number. 

I have dual band and many dual band, access point, and plug-in range extender devices throughout the house. Most RF only devices are very close to dual band devices. I have Filterlincs on all of my UPS units and other potential "sinks". This was sudden and happened to both RF, non-RF, and dual band devices and is not a communication error problem. 

[SteveSBE]

14 hours ago, kclenden said:

The Admin Console does not have connectivity with those devices.  It has connectivity with the PLM and the PLM has connectivity with those devices.  When you link a device to the ISY, you're really linking the device to the PLM.  When that happens, four tables are built: 1) A table of links in the device, 2) A table of links in the PLM, 3) A copy of the table of links in the device held by the ISY, 4) A copy of the table of links in the PLM held by the ISY.

What has likely happened is that the table of links in your PLM was corrupted.  This would mean that when the ISY tells the PLM to talk to a device, the PLM can't do it because it doesn't have the correct entry in its table that links it to the device.  This would also mean that if a device sends a status update to the PLM, the PLM ignores it because without the correct links in its table it doesn't recognize the device.

So you do a restore device which means the ISY uses its copy of the PLM table and device table to rebuild the entry for that device in the PLM and rebuild the table of links in the device.  These rebuilt links would also include links for any scenes to which the device had been enrolled.

A corruption of the PLM table of links could be a symptom of a failing PLM, but it also could be a symptom of a one-time event like a power surge.

 

Thanks kclenden -

I didn't realize that the the Admin Console's connectivity was with the PLM.  I thought the Admin Console read information from the ISY server and that the ISY server holds all the data from the PLM and insteon devices plus the real time changes from the PLM and insteon devices.

Although my insteon devices seem to work as I desire based on the scenes and programs I've created with my ISY admin console, I found out that many devices are not displaying changes in status on the Main tab | My Lighting of the Admin console. Restoring one device at a time seems to "reactivate" the display of that device so it does display status changes properly. I can restore a device at a time but I'm wondering if the File | Restore ISY will also do that and will also fix additional things that I have yet to discover are not correct.  Is that a better option and will it restore and fix "hidden" issues I may have and correct errors in the four tables you referenced?

Steve

[kclenden]

10 hours ago, SteveSBE said:

I can restore a device at a time but I'm wondering if the File | Restore ISY will also do that and will also fix additional things that I have yet to discover are not correct.

I've not done a "Restore ISY" before, but my understanding is that it only restores the ISY (e.g. Programs, settings, etc) and not actually the underlying network (i.e. PLM and Devices).  You'd use "Restore ISY" if your SD card failed, or you replaced it for some other reason.