Buying a Elk M1

[smithlevenson]

OK, I tried this before, but now I have more info and I can spell out what I am thinking. I have a attached a home layout with 8 sets of doors, but I have zero accessible double hung windows. I need to know if I can slowly add to this system or if I need to buy everything at once? This may be long, but that will help me organize my thoughts. If you have any thoughts/suggestions, all input is appreciated.

Already Have

 

1.    ISY994i Z/IR PRO (All house Lights, AV, and Door Locks are controlled)

 

2.    2413S Insteon Dual-Band PLM

 

3.    Pre-wiring to 8 door sensor locations

 

 

Needs

 

1.    ELK Two-Way Wireless Ready M1 Gold Security and Home Automation Kit - $743 @ Smarthome

 

     COMES WITH

 

    1x - M1 Gold Control Board

    1x - Two-Way Wireless Transceiver

    1x - Two-Way Wireless 4 Button Keyfob

    1x - M1KP2 LCD Keypad

    1x - SWB14 Enclosure

    1x - 1280 8Ah Battery

    1x - TRG1640 AC Transformer

    1x - 73 Echo™ Paintable Interior Speaker

    1x - 952 In-line Telephone Surge Protector

    1x - RJSET Telco Jack & Cord

2.    Wired Door Sensors

 

3.    Cellular/Ethernet Monitoring (I don't mind self monitoring if there are no good options)

 

 

 

WANTS

 

1.    Glass Break

 

2.    M1KPNAV 3.5-inch Navigator LCD Touchscreen

 

3.    Insteon Arm, Monitor, and Respond  |  NOT Disarm

 

4.    Monitor House Smoke Detectors

 

5.    Panic Button

5.    Extra Key Fob

 

[DennisC]

I have 2 Elk systems in use and the system is fully expandable. You can add to it at anytime. Buy what you want now and add to it when you can.

[Scottmichaelj]

Why would you self monitor?

[smithlevenson]

8 hours ago, Scottmichaelj said:

Why would you self monitor?

I figure I can check my cameras and call the police as easily as anyone else. I live in a pretty safe neighborhood and really want it for the door chime and deterrent more than safety. I also want it to automate somethings when the wife is going to be away, without geo fencing and location. 

 

If I get the smokes hooked up I would probably get an outside monitor. But having something I hooked up and program calling the cops right away seems iffy. 

[larryllix]

2 hours ago, smithlevenson said:

I figure I can check my cameras and call the police as easily as anyone else. I live in a pretty safe neighborhood and really want it for the door chime and deterrent more than safety. I also want it to automate somethings when the wife is going to be away, without geo fencing and location. 

 

If I get the smokes hooked up I would probably get an outside monitor. But having something I hooked up and program calling the cops right away seems iffy. 

I self monitor also but when you are a cruise in the Caribbean and you get a text message an MS went off but you have no Internet, then what do you do? Pace in circles the rest of the three week cruise? You may not be able to afford that many drinks. I have wrecked vacations with serious things I really didn't want to know about.

[smithlevenson]

6 hours ago, larryllix said:

I self monitor also but when you are a cruise in the Caribbean and you get a text message an MS went off but you have no Internet, then what do you do? Pace in circles the rest of the three week cruise? You may not be able to afford that many drinks. I have wrecked vacations with serious things I really didn't want to know about.

That is a good example. I wonder if there is a monitoring company you can switch on and off on a monthly basis? That might give me a backup plan to pay for peace of mind. 

What is your setup for external notifications with the Elk? 

[larryllix]

3 hours ago, smithlevenson said:

That is a good example. I wonder if there is a monitoring company you can switch on and off on a monthly basis? That might give me a backup plan to pay for peace of mind. 

What is your setup for external notifications with the Elk? 

I don't have a formal security system. I use my ISY only.

Many security monitoring companies won't monitor you unless they install, or at least inspect your system. With ISY,  none would do it anyway. The Insteon MSes false report frequently. This will never be known by users until they are monitored. Normally a light going on is not noticed.

Right now I am training some cheap webcams to monitor also. Webcams are really not good for false reporting. A small piece of recording is not a problem but a police arrival from one will only happen once here. A second occurrence will get you fined or ignored forever.

[Scottmichaelj]

I figure I can check my cameras and call the police as easily as anyone else. I live in a pretty safe neighborhood and really want it for the door chime and deterrent more than safety. I also want it to automate somethings when the wife is going to be away, without geo fencing and location. 
 
If I get the smokes hooked up I would probably get an outside monitor. But having something I hooked up and program calling the cops right away seems iffy. 

If your going to put in an expensive (and very good) Elk system self monitoring makes no sense. You could have just went cheaper to self monitor. Why even have a system at all if you live in a safe area? Lets be honest you will never stop a snatch and grab. Anyone can break a window come in, grab a few items and leave before the cops get there. I tell my clients alarm systems are important for personal safety. Its also very important to make sure the smoke/co2 detectors are monitored as these are the two most important items (in my opinion) to monitor. Most people never put in a heat detector in the garage but its one of the first places fires start. You have monitorting to save your life not “things”. You can always replace “things” but you can’t replace a life.

Most people, including myself use Watchlight/Alarm Relay monitorting. They are very affordable and professional. Its only $20 a month with a Elk C1M1 cell (or other brand) which is not that much. Plus most insurance companies will give you a discount on your homeowners insurance and that will offset it. You will be required to show proof via a certificate that Alarm Relay will provide.

If its important enough to secure it should be important enough to monitor.

[Scottmichaelj]

Here is an important article for people to read,

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/home/house-fires-burn-much-faster-than-they-used-to-heres-how-to-survive/2017/11/20/1c1eb7f8-c890-11e7-aa96-54417592cf72_story.html

Main point from the article,

Residential fires kill more people than any other kind, according to the Federal Emergency Management Administration. In fact, roughly seven Americans die every day in house fires.

Another important thing about fires is you have about 2 minutes to get out. Fires double every minute.

https://realtytimes.com/consumeradvice/homeownersadvice/item/1007925-20171219-house-fires-less-than-two-minutes-to-survive

I really can’t stress fires safety enough. Theres the added benefits of medical help if needed in an emergency as well.

[smithlevenson]

8 hours ago, larryllix said:

I don't have a formal security system. I use my ISY only.

Many security monitoring companies won't monitor you unless they install, or at least inspect your system. With ISY,  none would do it anyway. The Insteon MSes false report frequently. This will never be known by users until they are monitored. Normally a light going on is not noticed.

Right now I am training some cheap webcams to monitor also. Webcams are really not good for false reporting. A small piece of recording is not a problem but a police arrival from one will only happen once here. A second occurrence will get you fined or ignored forever.

I love being able to check Blue Iris to see what's going on. I use my door sensors as an ad hoc alarm now and it gives me 80% of what I need. 

[smithlevenson]

6 hours ago, Scottmichaelj said:

 

If your going to put in an expensive (and very good) Elk system self monitoring makes no sense. You could have just went cheaper to self monitor. Why even have a system at all if you live in a safe area? Lets be honest you will never stop a snatch and grab. Anyone can break a window come in, grab a few items and leave before the cops get there. I tell my clients alarm systems are important for personal safety. Its also very important to make sure the smoke/co2 detectors are monitored as these are the two most important items (in my opinion) to monitor. Most people never put in a heat detector in the garage but its one of the first places fires start. You have monitorting to save your life not “things”. You can always replace “things” but you can’t replace a life.

Most people, including myself use Watchlight/Alarm Relay monitorting. They are very affordable and professional. Its only $20 a month with a Elk C1M1 cell (or other brand) which is not that much. Plus most insurance companies will give you a discount on your homeowners insurance and that will offset it. You will be required to show proof via a certificate that Alarm Relay will provide.

If its important enough to secure it should be important enough to monitor.

 

Like I said if I can figure out (wire in) the smokes I would probably monitor. I already take a lot of fire precautions, but a monitored alarm may be a good addition. Is Alarm Relay a month to month service? 

The point of the Elk vs Insteon is that it is UL certified equipment and presumably much more reliable. I don't want false alarms or missed events. My priorities are:

1) Wife knows no one has entered the house regardless of door locks

2) Siren set off if someone does open a door when alarm is set for deterrent. 

3) Door chime to know when a door is opened (is this configurable on a Elk) 

4) Panic button (is this unique alarm on Elk) 

5) Automate based on the away alarm condition.

6) No wireless sensors

7) Notification of alarms  

[Scottmichaelj]

Like I said if I can figure out (wire in) the smokes I would probably monitor. I already take a lot of fire precautions, but a monitored alarm may be a good addition. Is Alarm Relay a month to month service? 

The point of the Elk vs Insteon is that it is UL certified equipment and presumably much more reliable. I don't want false alarms or missed events. My priorities are:

1) Wife knows no one has entered the house regardless of door locks

2) Siren set off if someone does open a door when alarm is set for deterrent. 

3) Door chime to know when a door is opened (is this configurable on a Elk) 

4) Panic button (is this unique alarm on Elk) 

5) Automate based on the away alarm condition.

6) No wireless sensors

7) Notification of alarms  

 

I sell and install (and on many occasions helped remotely members here with their systems). I know Elk is UL listed but whats the difference if your not monitorting? I am not trying to be argumentative but thats why Elk/UL and monitorting are done. Self monitoring UL doesnt matter. Why is “Reliability” an importance? Its almost double talk. I am just trying to help you really understand what happens in the real world.

 

Like @larrylinx pointed out, your going to get a notification and nine times out of ten you wont be able to act on it at all. Either driving, poor internet, in a meeting, vacations, etc.

 

Check out alarmrelay.com for details but theres a setup fee and they charge you for the full year. You can cancel anytime if your not happy. That said I have never had anyone do that so not sure if the prorate etc.

 

Look at the Cosmos Smoke/CO2 system:

 

https://www.systemsensor.com/en-us/Pages/COSMO-2W.aspx

 

It can trigger actual room smoke on one zone and co2 on a separate zone. There is a four wire version and it works perfectly with Elk.

 

You questions:

 

1) Wife knows no one has entered the house regardless of door locks (Elks “echo” siren chimes and voice notifications will be perfect for this. Elk also has different sirens for different triggered conditions. Fire, security, etc)

2) Siren set off if someone does open a door when alarm is set for deterrent. (Standard)

3) Door chime to know when a door is opened (is this configurable on a Elk)  (Elk can chime or speak the window/door name via its speak commands - also if you buy the ISY Elk module, which I highly recommend, you can even add more notifications via voice outside alarm zones)

4) Panic button (is this unique alarm on Elk) (Elk 2-Way wireless is amazing and works well. You can buy a keyfob and use the buttons to trigger anything you like via programming with Elk or ISY)

5) Automate based on the away alarm condition. (You need the ISY Elk module)

6) No wireless sensors (This is not a big deal. Elk two is perfectly reliable, even on large homes. Each sensor can be supervised and you can get low battery or loss of communication if one ever had issues)

7) Notification of alarms (Again ISY Elk module works)

 

Edit: PS the Nav screen for Elk is not worth the money. Buy an ipad mini or tablet and put an app like MobilincX on it. Far better control and usability.

[larryllix]

3 hours ago, Scottmichaelj said:

Here is an important article for people to read,

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/home/house-fires-burn-much-faster-than-they-used-to-heres-how-to-survive/2017/11/20/1c1eb7f8-c890-11e7-aa96-54417592cf72_story.html

Main point from the article,

Residential fires kill more people than any other kind, according to the Federal Emergency Management Administration. In fact, roughly seven Americans die every day in house fires.

Another important thing about fires is you have about 2 minutes to get out. Fires double every minute.

https://realtytimes.com/consumeradvice/homeownersadvice/item/1007925-20171219-house-fires-less-than-two-minutes-to-survive

I really can’t stress fires safety enough. Theres the added benefits of medical help if needed in an emergency as well.

Years back I got to watch a demo video done by some fire department around one of the Carolina's. They took a two story home, loaded it with video cams, sensors etc.. and threw a lit cigarette into a waste paper basket and recorded what happened. It was very interesting watching the smoke grow into a fire that spread up the drapes and throughout the house. They recorded all the events from the time the smoke alarms went off. For the first run they left the bedrooms doors open upstairs and then closed for another test run.

The events that made large marks in my mind.
At 1:00 minute after smoke detector. Upstairs temperatures in bedrooms were just becoming non-survivable if doors were closed. An occupant would have about 1 minute to get out a window. if an attempt to run down the stairwell for the front door was done the stairwell to the front door ceiling was at 2200F. If you inhaled once, you would die in the hospital a few days later due to scorched lung tissues that would prevent you from uptaking oxygen from the air.

OTOH: If the bedroom doors were left open...I just remember the red phone on the night table case melted and the plastic ran down the side of the dresser.

 

Long story short: If you sleep in an upstairs bedroom with your bedroom door open you probably have less than a 25% chance of survival if the smoke alarm wakes you up in a decent blaze. Forget the jewels and just jump out the nearest window. Towels or blankets blocking the bottom crack of the door  can buy you about another 30-60 seconds.

Most people never feel the burns. They are unconscious from smoke inhalation.

[Scottmichaelj]

I put smokes/co2 everywhere. Sooner the notice the better the chance.

[smithlevenson]

8 hours ago, Scottmichaelj said:

I put smokes/co2 everywhere. Sooner the notice the better the chance.

I have dual smoke/co2 everywhere. The problem is that they were not wired back to the alarm panel only to each other. If I can fish the wire I am in business, but it is not in a good spot for that and there are door sensor wires coming in from every direction. 

[smithlevenson]

8 hours ago, larryllix said:

Years back I got to watch a demo video done by some fire department around one of the Carolina's. They took a two story home, loaded it with video cams, sensors etc.. and threw a lit cigarette into a waste paper basket and recorded what happened

It makes you wish it was economical to put in fire sprinklers. 

That being said, I wonder if it was built with modern materials? They perform much better than when we basically built our homes out of combustibles. I actually put Rock wool insulation between the floors and bedrooms (where there would otherwise be nothing) to help slow a fire down (and decrease sound transmission). 

[smithlevenson]

12 hours ago, Scottmichaelj said:

Edit: PS the Nav screen for Elk is not worth the money. Buy an ipad mini or tablet and put an app like MobilincX on it. Far better control and usability.

Thanks for all the info. I appreciate the feedback.

I am definitely doing keypads (of any type), because I do not want the ISY to be able to disarm the system.  I don't know if that is possible after purchasing the ELK Module, but if I can I will.

[larryllix]

As a funny side note: I use a KPL keypad as an alarm keypad with different combinations to do different things. One four digit sequence arms and disarms my alert system, while other four digit sequences reset my water leak alert shut offs.

With a washing machine spill we both get alerts of what code to key in as well as instructions where and what to check first. A buzzLinc beeps to confirm proper sequence entry.

Sent using Tapatalk

[Scottmichaelj]

Thanks for all the info. I appreciate the feedback.
I am definitely doing keypads (of any type), because I do not want the ISY to be able to disarm the system.  I don't know if that is possible after purchasing the ELK Module, but if I can I will.

Why does that matter? MLX and Agave popup with a screen to enter the code? Just like the alarm keypad.

[Scottmichaelj]

As a funny side note: I use a KPL keypad as an alarm keypad with different combinations to do different things. One four digit sequence arms and disarms my alert system, while other four digit sequences reset my water leak alert shut offs.

 

With a washing machine spill we both get alerts of what code to key in as well as instructions where and what to check first. A buzzLinc beeps to confirm proper sequence entry.

 

Sent using Tapatalk

 

 

 

https://gph.is/1hxYksJ

[smithlevenson]

14 minutes ago, Scottmichaelj said:

 

Why does that matter? MLX and Agave popup with a screen to enter the code? Just like the alarm keypad.

 

Because I don't trust that ISY and Insteon are secure. 

I don't mind if a hacker sees my cameras or messes with my lights. I sure don't want them to turn off my alarm or change the codes. 

 

That's also the third time you have dismissed my concerns. I appreciate you taking the time and the feedback, but I am not a complete amateur with Automation. I just see somethings differently than a normal user (which is why I like automation in the first place). 

[Scottmichaelj]

Because I don't trust that ISY and Insteon are secure. 
I don't mind if a hacker sees my cameras or messes with my lights. I sure don't want them to turn off my alarm or change the codes. 
 
That's also the third time you have dismissed my concerns. I appreciate you taking the time and the feedback, but I am not a complete amateur with Automation. I just see somethings differently than a normal user (which is why I like automation in the first place). 

I am not dismissing you or saying your an amateur, but some things you say conflict each other. You talk about “self monitoring” which is not really safe or recommended, but then your worried a hacker is going to get into your system? Most of what your asking for requires the Elk module via ISY. Well that could be hacked (in theory) and disarm your system. I suggest you do a bit of research on Elk and ISY. Communication between both are not secure. If you have any either device on the internet then potentially either could be hacked. I stand by what I stated. I been doing this for many years professionally and just trying to help. I may not have all the answers but want to give you things to think about. I always say theres many ways to cook a hamburger and there is not one correct way. I just am giving you my opinion and hopefully perspective. I wish you the best and I am always available via PM if you need help.

[smithlevenson]

7 hours ago, Scottmichaelj said:

 

I am not dismissing you or saying your an amateur, but some things you say conflict each other. You talk about “self monitoring” which is not really safe or recommended, but then your worried a hacker is going to get into your system? Most of what your asking for requires the Elk module via ISY. Well that could be hacked (in theory) and disarm your system. I suggest you do a bit of research on Elk and ISY. Communication between both are not secure. If you have any either device on the internet then potentially either could be hacked. I stand by what I stated. I been doing this for many years professionally and just trying to help. I may not have all the answers but want to give you things to think about. I always say theres many ways to cook a hamburger and there is not one correct way. I just am giving you my opinion and hopefully perspective. I wish you the best and I am always available via PM if you need help.

 

I hear you, and I appreciate the help. You just never made a logical correlation between monitoring and having an network intrusion. Does an alarm monitoring company watch your internet traffic? Would they know the difference between an authorized and unauthorized user? The plan is to set up the Elk and shut off external access except for ELK update notifications (as much as that is possible).

I know it sounds far fetched, but open a port on your home network and make a open guest account for a DVR program like Blue Iris. Watch as the world logs into your system to watch your cameras. I use Z-wave locks because of the AES 128 encryption. I haven't heard of an Insteon getting hacked, but I do wish the security and reliability were higher. I just really don't want a simple exploit like the old garage door signal sniffers to undo my modest protections. That's why I returned the Simply Safe. It's disarm from the keyfob sent your password unencrypted to the base station. 

As for Monitoring, I just fail to see much upside. If we are gone and the alarm is triggered, A guy making minimum wage calls me and ask for a password. At that point I need to either get on my cameras and determine it is a false alarm or have him call the police. He does absolutely zero, except warm body to receive the alarm and dial 911 if I don't have my phone on me. I mean, you could very easily write a program to replace the logic an alarm company employee might use. 

Obviously, fire alarms are a different story since the additional time could prevent further destruction. But I could add several family members to the notifications and be pretty sure that they would respond as well. I get the difference between 24/7 and an ad hoc solution, but it doesn't mean monitored == safe and self-monitored != safe. 

[larryllix]

….except when a guy receives the alarm, and calls you, but you do not answer or are not home, then he calls the police, fire, ambulance. It's a second line of defence against a falsing system or you tied up on the floor. You may answer and ask for forgiveness with your special "safe" word.

[smithlevenson]

3 hours ago, larryllix said:

….except when a guy receives the alarm, and calls you, but you do not answer or are not home, then he calls the police, fire, ambulance. It's a second line of defence against a falsing system or you tied up on the floor. You may answer and ask for forgiveness with your special "safe" word. 

Agreed, but with my family I don't mind giving them access to my cameras to check on what's going on. Plus two of them live less than 5 min away, so they could technically check on the house themselves. I am not anti-monitoring, just it needs to be an integrated part of a solution that doesn't create more problems than it solves.

There is not a perfect system, but I am happy to try and make it as fool proof as possible with all suggestions. The one thing I know I can't do is use Insteon to replace an alarm system. IMO, it is not nearly reliable enough. You could go way overboard with redundancy, battery backup, Biometrics etc., but I go for a more intangible goal. Do my wife and I feel safe?

Let's face it the odds of dying in a break in or house fire are so incredibly low that all of these measures are basically overkill. I also have an answer for not getting tied up which has little to do with an alarm, and my wife can hit a deer on the move in the neck from 200+ yds, so criminal beware. ?