Water valve control with Wireless Tags

[Ajax]

So if you read my previous topic you would know I was planning on doing a new construction all Insteon, but had difficulty with the dimmers and LED's we decided to not install the Insteon system. But I still installed the Smarthome water valve. https://www.smarthome.com/smarthome-select-electronic-water-shutoff-valve-3-4-inch-12v-dc.html I was planning on using wireless sensor tags https://store.wirelesstag.net/products/wireless-water-moisture-sensor-2-0  and an ISY to control the valve if a leak is detected since this is a vacation home. Since I am not installing the ISY on this project, what would you recommend for simple control to shut off the valve if leak is detected. I could still do the ISY, but wanted to check with you first.

Thanks!

[paulbates]

There's a couple of things that need to happen and a controller with the ISY's capability will be needed with these components:

• The valve needs low voltage ac/dc to stay open
  • Did you get a powersupply for it (11 - 15V AC/DC)?
  • On/off outletlinc or appliance module plug the valve's powersupply in, power and control it
  • PLM on the ISY to control the outletlinc
     
• Wireless tags send a network message
  • Wireless tag configured to communicate with the ISY (or nodeserver)
     
• An ISY program to
  • detect the message from the wireless tag
  • control the outlet
  • Notification to you that something happend

Paul

[Ajax]

20 minutes ago, paulbates said:

There's a couple of things that need to happen and a controller with the ISY's capability will be needed with these components:

• The valve needs low voltage ac/dc to stay open
  • Did you get a powersupply for it (11 - 15V AC/DC)?
  • On/off outletlinc or appliance module plug the valve's powersupply in, power and control it
  • PLM on the ISY to control the outletlinc
     
• Wireless tags send a network message
  • Wireless tag configured to communicate with the ISY (or nodeserver)
     
• An ISY program to
  • detect the message from the wireless tag
  • control the outlet
  • Notification to you that something happend

Paul

Paul, thanks yeah that is how I have it setup in the past and was planning on doing it again. But sucks that I have to use an ISY, PLM and outletlinc to just control just a valve. I was hoping there would be easier solution since I just want to control the valve and nothing else in the house.

[apostolakisl]

16 minutes ago, paulbates said:

There's a couple of things that need to happen and a controller with the ISY's capability will be needed with these components:

• The valve needs low voltage ac/dc to stay open
  • Did you get a powersupply for it (11 - 15V AC/DC)?
  • On/off outletlinc or appliance module plug the valve's powersupply in, power and control it
  • PLM on the ISY to control the outletlinc
     
• Wireless tags send a network message
  • Wireless tag configured to communicate with the ISY (or nodeserver)
     
• An ISY program to
  • detect the message from the wireless tag
  • control the outlet
  • Notification to you that something happend

Paul

I can't say for sure what valve he has, but the 3/4 inch one that pops up on SH website is a ball valve.  It only needs power to actuate, it doesn't need 12v to stay open.  It is not a solenoid, it is a little motor that turns the ball valve.  

 

@Ajax

Just because you didn't like the Insteon, doesn't mean that you don't need/want an ISY.  ISY has moved well away from Insteon dedication and is fully z-wave compatible and with the Nodeserver/Polyglot is quickly adding functionality to pretty much anything with an open API.  Either way, if I were looking for a logic control solution, it is hard to go wrong with ISY, especially as cheap as they now are on SH website.  And there is still a good chance that Insteon has things you want.  Maybe for example, the outdoor on/off units, or fan controls, or who knows.  The beauty is you can mix and match pretty easily with ISY at the center of it all.  

Now, to water valves, I use my alarm system to control the valves both at home and at my office.  Even a basic DSC "dumb" alarm panel has outputs that can switch relays that actuate the valve.  That is how it works at my office.  The "dumb" DSC panel shuts the water off when armed.  I have no need for water when not there.  At home, I use my Elk to control it.  Having said that, neither is compatible with a wireless tag (as far as I know).  I don't have any wireless tags, but I understand they have an open API and can be integrated wtih ISY, so ISY would easily be handle that logic.  This assumes you trust the wireless tag.  If I were you, I would just turn the water off when the alarm is armed.  This assumes no irrigation system or that you have the irrigation system split off prior to water entering the building.

[Ajax]

@apostolakisl

 

Ha yeah I love the ISY/Insteon and use them all the time. And would have loved to use it for this build (My parents vacation home) but the LED cans they installed was not compatible with the dimmer (SO I have $8000 worth of Insteon product sitting in my garage-Should be able to use on another project....I hope) Was hoping to save the ISY for that project but maybe it would be easier to just use the ISY. OR maybe a Rasberry pi and relay block...thoughts? Or this should be simple enough https://www.amazon.com/Electric-Solenoid-BOXMART-Control-Version/dp/B07FZZFBPQ I can setup the tags to notify me of a leak and then use the valve control/app to shut it off. Not automatic but simple enough I think.

[apostolakisl]

@Ajax 

I don't know.  If it is a drip drip kind of leak, probably OK.  But if a washing machine hose breaks and you have 25 gpm blasting away, not sure you want to trust that method.  Why don't you just shut the water off when you aren't there and not worry about leak detectors.  Like I said, that is how I do my house and office.  My house is fancier with a delay built in for the dishwasher and washing machine.  But my house also has more than 20 hard wired leak detectors which also shut the water off without delay.  My office shuts off immediately upon arming the alarm, no delays, no leak detectors.  Most people with vacation homes will shut the water off manually when away, but that doesn't cover you when you go out to dinner or whatever.

[TomL]

I without a doubt agree that I am far from an advanced user, but I was wondering the following.  Why not just use an insteon leak detector and hub with an appliance module or IOlinc.  I think that would be the cheapest option, the hub will send notification is triggered and shut off the valve.

I have started installing shut offs at home and I am using the ISY, along with Insteon leak detector and a valve off amazon that is like SH valve but less expensive, this is a link to the 1/2 inch version, normally open closed when power applied. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06X9LWXMW/?coliid=I3IOG340V1R46H&colid=3RV71YDQOJ1JF&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it, they have a 3/4 and 1 inch version as well.

[Ajax]

Sorry yeah I forgot that part. They have a commercial ice machine and 2 fridges with ice machines that need water. I guess I could put that on a separate line and have the main for the rest shut off when we leave during the week, and on during the weekends. The only concern still would be to shut off 2x on demand water heaters.

Edited June 26, 2019 by Ajax

[apostolakisl]

3 minutes ago, TomL said:

I without a doubt agree that I am far from an advanced user, but I was wondering the following.  Why not just use an insteon leak detector and hub with an appliance module or IOlinc.  I think that would be the cheapest option, the hub will send notification is triggered and shut off the valve.

I have started installing shut offs at home and I am using the ISY, along with Insteon leak detector and a valve off amazon that is like SH valve but less expensive, this is a link to the 1/2 inch version, normally open closed when power applied. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06X9LWXMW/?coliid=I3IOG340V1R46H&colid=3RV71YDQOJ1JF&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it, they have a 3/4 and 1 inch version as well.

I agree, the easiest way to do it would be to use the exact setup that the SH picture demo's in the example.  You only need the HUB if you want to be notified.  But again, how many leak detectors are you going to have?  Are you going to put one under every single appliance/faucet/toilet/etc?  What about if you get a pin-hole in some random spot where you would never have a leak detector?  If this is a vacation house that goes weeks or months un-occupied, you need to shut the water off, not rely on leak detectors.  A pin hole left unchecked for a couple weeks can do amazing destruction.

[Ajax]

@TomL

I havent used the Insteon hub before actually, that might not be a bad idea either! I have a bunch of insteon leak detectors I can use. I like the wireless tags as they can provide me temperature at the house during winters months

Edited June 26, 2019 by Ajax

[TomL]

I just got a email where they have them 50percent off right now.  Also, it would be a bit more involved, but Iwould imagine you could place a flow meter and using the ISY tell it to shut off if it uses more than Xgallons in a given period.  that should cover you ice machine and ice maker usage.

[apostolakisl]

31 minutes ago, TomL said:

I just got a email where they have them 50percent off right now.  Also, it would be a bit more involved, but Iwould imagine you could place a flow meter and using the ISY tell it to shut off if it uses more than Xgallons in a given period.  that should cover you ice machine and ice maker usage.

There are water valves out there that have all of that built in to them.  They supposedly have algorithms that detect slow leaks as well as major breaks.  That probably works for a slow leak, but a 25gpm washing machine hose will make a serious mess in seconds, and the best you can expect a valve like this to do is maybe 10 minutes?  Not sure what the algorithm is, but obviously it can's just shut the water off, you could easily be actually using water like that.

Again, you should shut the water off if you our of town.  You don't need ice machines or whatever to work.  The only exception is irrigation, which I suggest splitting off prior to the house shut off valve.  Also, ice machines work just fine shutting the water off for a few hours at a time.  The pipes hold plenty of pressure to push out multiple refills of the ice tray.  Especially, if like me, you have the ice machines on RO filters with pressurized holding tanks.

[Ajax]

Yeah Moen makes the smart one https://meetflo.com/?gclid=CjwKCAjwr8zoBRA0EiwANmvpYHn66NPf_S9xXHvPDaivvXBiSsYYtbnenYAprr11aOuYKqC3BeK0RxoCJkkQAvD_BwE For that cost I would much rather just use my ISY. My only concern is doing only insteon leak detectors/hub would be range. With nothing else being Insteon for increasing signal strength should I be concerned? (3300 sqft a floor x2)

 

This house is occupied most weekends during the summer and will shut water off when gone for the winter. Its just more for when we are gone during the week. And no the ice machines need to have ice when we show up. We cannot wait a day for ice. The standard RO system is too small for a commercial machine.

[apostolakisl]

@Ajax

Your problem is you have too fancy of an ice machine.

Seriously, though, I know someone who went out to dinner and came back to a destroyed house from a washing machine hose.  My office had a washing machine hose break that took 10 minutes to shut down (people were there that didn't know how to turn the water off) which did $50k in damage.  That is when I installed the shut off valve so all you have to do to shut off water is turn the alarm on. 

In short, if you are only going to shut down water from a leak detector, you will need to have lots of them.  How PO'd would you be if you have 10 things covered and it is the 11th thing that busts a pipe?

[larryllix]

I have a heating system that depends on water pressure to work. I do have four LD now but only shut off my well pump and washing machine. There will still be a fair amount of after come out of my 3000'  of in-slab PEX piping but it would be lower than the leak and I would not come home to a swimming pool basement. The one by the washing machine watches overflow and hose breaks. Had one once and now with so much laminated flooring in the basement made out of cardboard....well you can imagine what would happen there but all  the drywall and outside wall spun insulation gets involved if it get too deep. Love mould in my walls!

[apostolakisl]

Just saw insteon 50% off lots of multipacks.  Including the leak detector 7 pack.  So you could do 14 of them for ~$250.  If you have concerns about Insteon wireless signal, you could pick a a 7 pack of lamp modules and automate a bunch of lamps.  That would make a nice lived in look when away and cover all your high risk leak areas.

[Ajax]

Yeah I think that should work. I already have 3x water leak multipacks. Just need to pick up a hub