Cannot determine Insteon Engine - for someone new

[Jimini]

I read the thread with this same problem dated 2016 and tried the factory reset that was recommended but that did not fix the problem. I cannot find any other reference to this error message so here goes.

I'm trying to link my second 2466SW to my ISY994i.  I have been slowly switching X10 units to Insteon replacements.  When trying to link this switch I get the message "Cannot determine Insteon Engine".  Following the advice of someone to the 2016 report of this problem, I performed a factory reset of the toggle switch and tried again to link but received the same error message.  

I called SmartHome who claims to know nothing about the ISY.  After the person who answered the phone consulted with someone higher up, he came back to tell me to try linking the toggle switch to the PLM manually by pushing it set button for 5 seconds then pushing the toggle switch set button for 4 seconds. When I asked how I would know if the link was successful, I was told that that ISY would somehow show that the link had been accomplished.  That didn't make much sense to me, but I tried.  The lights on the PLM did not change state after pushing its set button.  It remained solid green.  And when I checked the ISY console managers screen, nothing had changed regarding its list of linked devices.  

It's clear that the SmartHome guys know very little if anything about the ISY.  I hope someone at UD or in this forum can bridge the two product worlds.  

[Techman]

The problem is that the device is unable to communicate with the PLM. This can occur if you have either noise on the power line or if your Insteon mesh network needs improvements.

Take a look at these two troubleshooting links.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMx5yHTU2g4

https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=INSTEON:_Troubleshooting_Communications_Errors

 

[Jimini]

Thank you Techman for your quick reply.  I had to break for dinner without replying back. 

I understand your point about noise on the house wiring.  In fact, I have had issues with my X10 system devices when I moved to this larger house several years ago, both noise and attenuation due to length of travel, I believe.  One of my reasons for switching from X10 to Insteon was to be rid of those issues with the dual band and mesh architecture.  

In fact, this switch unit which I installed today replaces an X10 switch which has not suffered from intermittent operation.  I would think that that would give some merit to my surprise if noise is now a problem for Insteon on this circuit.  I have not looked at the amplitude of the Insteon signals to compare with the X10 but I would be surprised if they are smaller and thus will not transmit as far.  

A few more details of the present state of my system.  The newly installed problematic switch is on the opposite leg or phase from the PLM, however, I have installed an Insteon Range Extender on that same opposite phase for the specific purpose of driving signals on that leg.  I thought that this Extender would pick up RF signals and make sure that they were transmitted on the leg it is plugged into.  This unit is about 10 feet from the electrical panel for all house wiring.  Secondly, today I have also replaced an X10 Appliance module with an Insteon On/Off Outdoor Module on the same circuit as that of the problematic switch.  This unit is on the same circuit but that circuit makes a "Y" about 10 feet from the electrical panel with the Outdoor module about 50 feet further down its line from the "Y" while the problematic switch is about 30 feet further down its line from the "Y".  This Insteon unit linked without a problem and appears to respond correctly to on/off commands from the ISY.  Again, I would think that this unit retransmitting signals on the same circuit as the problematic switch would have solved any noise or attenuation problems.  

It appears that there are two possible reasons for this problem now that I understand what the error message is trying to state.  Either the switch is bad or all my attempts stated above to avoid noise or attenuation problems are insufficient.  My next available time to work on these issues will be day after tomorrow.  I may remove this switch and use it to replace another X10 unit which is on the same leg as the PLM within 2 feet of the electric panel, just to convince myself that it is not faulty.  

With regard to the several suggestions you have for solving noise problems, I don't understand how one "stacks" additional access points onto the PLM.  Is that described somewhere?  And second, can you give me more information about the problems with Halogen lights.  The problematic switch is in fact supposed to turn on and off an outdoor Halogen light.  If using these Insteon switches to control Halogen lights must be avoided, it would certainly be nice if that were advertised somewhere before people invest hundreds of dollars in converting from other technologies that don't have this problem.  Just to repeat, the X10 switch worked fine for this Haologen light.  Please give me more details on the issue and the proposed solution. 

Thank you again and hopefully we can solve my present problem.

Jimini

 

 

 

 

 

 

[lilyoyo1]

The 2466 is not dual band. You would need the 2477d for dual band. Linking devices in a noisy environment is more difficult than communicating with a device once it's linked in the same environment. 

What is the firmware and UI of your ISY? I would moved the switch closer to the ISY get it linked and then move it back

[Brian H]

In your X10 setup.

Do you have an X10 coupler/repeater between the two incoming power lines? If you do some of them see the tail end of an Insteon power line message as an X10 message. Then resent what they think is an X10 message back on the power lines.  Causing issues for Insteon messages. The passive models pass Insteon messages just the active types can sometimes cause issues.

[Jimini]

I'm reading this off the ISY Launcher.  I assume this is the firmware and UI you are asking for.  Type: ISY994i, Version 5.0.13D

Will plugging a dual band module (e.g. a dimmer module) next to, i.e. in the same electrical box, the 2466 switch accomplish the same thing as moving the switch closer to link it?

 

[Brian H]

Any dual band module plugged into the same electrical box. Should help. Even the range extender that is a 2457D2 Lamplinc with the dimmer parts removed.

You may want to try the built in 4 tap  communications tests  in dual band modules {some refer to it a s beacon test in the manuals} to see if the modules are communicating with each other.

[Jimini]

To answer Brian H, I do have an X10 active coupler normally installed.  I have tried removing it and the link error message still comes up.  

As soon as I get three more switches installed, I can remove the X10 coupler permanently.  

 

[Jimini]

I will try to link with the dual band module plugged into the same box with the 2466 switch this evening after I return home from my day-job. 

But I am concerned about the issue of a Halogen light that Techman's reference mentioned.  If that is the issue, then I need to learn more about filtering that.  However, just before quitting for the night yesterday, I tried linking the switch with the light turned off.  I know that will mess up the on/off sync function but I thought it would be a way to test if the Halogen light being on was causing the noise.  That attempt to link also failed.  

[lilyoyo1]

58 minutes ago, Jimini said:

I'm reading this off the ISY Launcher.  I assume this is the firmware and UI you are asking for.  Type: ISY994i, Version 5.0.13D

Will plugging a dual band module (e.g. a dimmer module) next to, i.e. in the same electrical box, the 2466 switch accomplish the same thing as moving the switch closer to link it?

 

It can help. However, I prefer devices to be close to the ISY to lessen the chance of inteference somewhere else

[Brian H]

X10 uses a power line frequency of 120KHz and Insteon 131.65KHz.

If you have noise. An X10 test meter may show the noise.  It would not show proper Insteon signal levels but noise shows on my XTBM test meter.

You don't have the PLM on the same circuit as the computing equipment or AC input of an UPS?  They can absorb X10 and Insteon power line signals. If not isolated by a FilterLinc or other X10 type filter unit. My UPS is on the filtered outlet of a FilterLinc with the PLM in the unfiltered pass through outlet on the front of the case.

Almost all of my Insteon modules are single band power line only. So I have a pair of Access Points in my system.

[Techman]

6 hours ago, Jimini said:

I will try to link with the dual band module plugged into the same box with the 2466 switch this evening after I return home from my day-job. 

But I am concerned about the issue of a Halogen light that Techman's reference mentioned.  If that is the issue, then I need to learn more about filtering that.  However, just before quitting for the night yesterday, I tried linking the switch with the light turned off.  I know that will mess up the on/off sync function but I thought it would be a way to test if the Halogen light being on was causing the noise.  That attempt to link also failed.  

Halogen lights are not problematic. CFL bulbs, or Fluorescent bulbs can sometimes cause powerline noise due to their ballasts.

You should focus on building out your Insteon network. The more dual band devices you have the a more reliable your Insteon network becomes.  Dual band modules act as repeaters and repeat the Insteon signal both over the powerline and via RF.   You should also make sure that both legs of the powerline are properly bridged per the troubleshooting notes.

If you have a UPS or other power supplies close to the PLM you should use the Insteon Filterlinc to filter out their powerline interference. 

Lastly, your PLM should be plugged directly into an outlet, not a UPS or powerstrip.
 

[Jimini]

I don't have an X10 test meter.  I haven't had any trouble with noise with my X10 system except for one wall switch on a different circuit than the one I'm presently having trouble with.  That particular switch misses some commands to it which I have mostly solved by repeating the command a few times in the timing program.  I haven't had such trouble with the X10 switch that I just replaced with this problematic Insteon one.  

My PLM is not on the same circuit as my computer, nor is it on a UPS or surge protector.  I plan to put the ISY on a surge protector but have not done so yet.  I plan to keep the PLM off of one permanently.  

Can you explain further what your pair of access points are?  One is the PLM, what is the other?  

[Techman]

Access points can be any dual band plug in module. Because they are external, rather than being installed in a switch box, their RF signal is maximized.  

You should use the 4 tap test to verify that the plug in modules are installed on the opposite legs of your 220v power line.
 

[Jimini]

Reply to Techman's two most recent suggestions:

Yes, I will work on completing the change over from X10 to Insteon and remove the X10 cross-over plug-in.
I can try adding a dual band plug-in to the same electrical box (i.e. ganged outlet and switch box) as the problematic switch to see if that solves the link problem.  

Not much in my manuals about the 4 tap test, but as I understand it, I push the setup button four times on one module that sits on one leg and then see if all the other modules including those on the other leg start blinking their lights.  Is that correct?  

I now find the documentation for the Insteon Range Extender I purchased confusing.  From what I read before purchasing it, I understood that as long as I put one on the opposite 120V leg from the one the PLM is plugged into, it would bridge the two legs by receiving RF signals from the PLM or other modules and then put those signals on its line.  But now a careful reading of the Extender Module manual states that I need two such Extender modules and includes a very unclear explanation of why and an unclear explanation of the light pattern to expect if the bridge is in place or not.  Do you agree that I need two of those extender modules or should the one I now have on the opposite leg from the PLM be sufficient?

[mwester]

Please note that different circuits are NOT isolated from one another -- that is to say that just as Insteon signals travel all over your house passing through your breakers, so noise signals to as well.  So a noise-generating device and to a lesser extent a signal sucking device (e.g. UPS) on one circuit can negatively impact your Insteon devices on other circuits.  To put it yet another way, circuit breakers are NOT one-way "electricity valves", they conduct noise both directions!

So, look everywhere for your noise generators.  For example, one of the most infamous nasty noise generators in my house, one that could render most of the devices in my family room and kitchen useless, turned out to be a tiny little phone charger (a cheap chinese knockoff, which found itself in the trash can as soon as I finally figured out the source of the problem that had been plaguing me for days...)

 

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, Jimini said:

Reply to Techman's two most recent suggestions:

Yes, I will work on completing the change over from X10 to Insteon and remove the X10 cross-over plug-in.
I can try adding a dual band plug-in to the same electrical box (i.e. ganged outlet and switch box) as the problematic switch to see if that solves the link problem.  

Not much in my manuals about the 4 tap test, but as I understand it, I push the setup button four times on one module that sits on one leg and then see if all the other modules including those on the other leg start blinking their lights.  Is that correct?  

I now find the documentation for the Insteon Range Extender I purchased confusing.  From what I read before purchasing it, I understood that as long as I put one on the opposite 120V leg from the one the PLM is plugged into, it would bridge the two legs by receiving RF signals from the PLM or other modules and then put those signals on its line.  But now a careful reading of the Extender Module manual states that I need two such Extender modules and includes a very unclear explanation of why and an unclear explanation of the light pattern to expect if the bridge is in place or not.  Do you agree that I need two of those extender modules or should the one I now have on the opposite leg from the PLM be sufficient?

The 2413 plm is dual band so it does the same thing as a range extender. With that said, if they aren't in range of each other it won't work. Since you've successfully installed one, I would install the problem device where that is to get it linked in. And then moved to its final location (or just swap with the one already added).

[Brian H]

The 2443 Access Points where replaced by the Range Extenders. Both served the same function.

The Range Extender is actually a 2457D2 Dual Band  LampLinc with dimmer electronics removed.

[Jimini]

Hello All You Helpful People,

Happy 4^thof July everyone.  I've tried several things between Tuesday evening and yesterday afternoon.  Learned a few things, accomplished a few and have a few questions to ask to further my understanding.  

First, I plugged a dimmer module into the same box that held the problematic switch.  The dimmer module linked without any problem. 
Next, I tried to link the switch again, thinking that the dimmer module would relay good signals to/from the switch.  That failed again in the same way.  Very puzzling.  
Next, I tried the 4-tap test as was suggested.  I tried it tapping on several modules with varying results.  I will try to summarize:

• Initiating at PLM which is on 120V leg A, dimmer modules on leg A which are about 30' away responded, Range Extender module on leg B about 10' away also responded, dimmer module on leg B ~50' away did not.  This was the location of the problematic switch.
• Initiating at Extender module on leg B, PLM on leg a 10' away responded, dimmer module ~40' away on leg B also responded.  
• Initiating at Dimmer module where problematic switch is located on leg B, Extender module ~40' away on leg B responded, PLM on leg A ~50' away did not respond.  

I would conclude from this that the initiating unit sends out the RF signal but all the other units that receive the signal do not repeat it.  That was not what I understood to be the case.  Also, the range of the RF signals appears to be at least 40' but less than 50'.

That was enough for Tuesday evening.

Yesterday afternoon, again following one of your suggestions, I removed the problematic switch and replaced it with the switch that I had successfully linked in a different locations several days ago.  I left the dimmer module in place in that same box.  This switch was already linked so I didn't have to attempt that but it worked fine both from commands from the ISY and from the Mini Remote.  I removed the dimmer module and the switch still works fine.  Some success!

Next, following more advice, I linked two more toggle switches intended for other locations.  I did this linking at the now empty box where the switch was linked that now was moved out to replace the problematic one.  Those two switches linked without any problem.  
Next, I attempted to link the original problematic switch in that same box.  No good.  Same error message.  I tried to one more time; still bad. Then I turned on the Event Viewer as a video that Techman sent me had showed and tried to link again.  As his video showed, there were several Acks but no acknowledge.  I saved a copy of that to send to SmartHome since i think this shows that the switch is bad and attached it below.  This doesn't prove that I never had any noise problem in that original location, but it certainly points in that direction.  That is somewhat reassuring for me since as I reported day before, I never had a noise problem with the X10 switch in that location.  

My last exercise for the day was not as successful.  I attempted to replace another X10 switch with one of the Toggle switches that I had earlier linked only to find out that this switch box has no neutral.  It has been so long ago that I put this old X10 switch into that box, that I didn't remember that there was no neutral.  I probably didn't remember because it was not an issue for that old funky switch.  So I will have to run a separate neutral into that box.  Fortunately, the box is just on the other side of a wall stud next to the electrical panel that supplies all of these circuits.  It should not be too difficult to get a neutral wire through the 2x4 and into the panel but that will be for another day.  

So questions: 

Is my conclusion about who transmits RF signals for the 4-tap test correct, i.e. only the initiating unit with no repeater, correct?  If not please explain my results. 

I plan to return this problematic switch to SmartHome.  Any suggestions on other tests I should run before doing so? 

And one last cleanup I have to do, is reassign one of the buttons on my Mini-remote to the new switch that now replaces the one I moved to the problem location.  I will poke around with that unless someone wants to point me in the right direction. 

Thanks for all the help and suggestions.  I eventually got everything connected and linked except for the one missing a neutral wire.  

Jimini

 

ISY-Events-Log.v5.0.13D__Wed 2019.07.03 16.53.20.txt

[Techman]

What is the version number and 4 digit date code printed on the label on the switch your having problems with?  It appears to be an older unit.  The newer switches have improved firmware and electronics.

I would suggest resolving one problem at a time. i.e. get one device working properly before installing move devices.

Don't send your log to Smarthome. The log is from the ISY. They don't offer support for the ISY, only the Insteon products.  If the switch is defective and within the 2 year time frame they will replace it., no further documentation is needed.

Lastly I would try doing a factory reset on the problem switch, then attempt to install it.

F.Y.I.  Smarthome make a switch that will work without a neutral wire however it's an RF only device and will only work with incandescent bulbs.

 

 

 

[Jimini]

The 2466SW has revision 6.6 and date code 4918.  If this is an older version, what would it have done differently in this situation?  

Assuming this switch is defective, sending it back and moving onto the next device to install would be my next step.  

Can you confirm that my conclusion about the 4-Tap test only issuing RF signals from the initiating unit is correct?  That is am important characteristic, if correct, to know in interpreting test results.  

I assume the smart home switch that doesn't require a neutral is like the old X10 switch that ran a trickle current through the incandescent bulb.  I don't consider that very acceptable or safe.  It means the bulb is not off even when switch is off.  One of my helpers a few years back got a bit of a shock changing a light fixture without turning the breaker off because he had made sure that the switch was off, that type of switch.  

[Brian H]

Both the X10 two wire wall switches and the Insteon 2 wire wall switch do draw current through the load.

Both also have a built in switch that removes the AC from the circuit. To prevent the user getting a shock while changing the bulb. 

On the Insteon one. You pull the set button out and it opens the Air Gap Switch. The X10 models have a small slide switch you can move to disconnect the AC. Sounds like your friend did not use the built in safety switch.

Actually all the Insteon Wall Switches have the Air Gap Switch except the really early 2476S On/Off switch. To prevent a user from accidentally turning on the Load while someone is changing a bulb.

Only thing some have done by accident. Is when you push the Set Button back to its normal position. If pushed all the way in. A Factory Reset maybe done.

[Jimini]

Thanks for that added information, BrianH.  I had read a long time ago that the small slide switch on the X10 can be used to disable remote access to the switch but I had not reasoned that this would also remove the trickle current from the bulb.  That is good to know but hopefully, once I add this extra neutral to the one switch box I discovered yesterday without one, I can be rid of this type of switch.  I will try to remember to note that on the boxes of those X10 switches I have before I give them away to someone.  

And one thing I left out of my last response to Techman, I did a factory reset on the problematic switch after the first set of recommendations I received my first day of working with that switch.  It had no effect on the failure to link.  

Thanks, again,
Jimini

[Techman]

2 hours ago, Jimini said:

Thanks for that added information, BrianH.  I had read a long time ago that the small slide switch on the X10 can be used to disable remote access to the switch but I had not reasoned that this would also remove the trickle current from the bulb.  That is good to know but hopefully, once I add this extra neutral to the one switch box I discovered yesterday without one, I can be rid of this type of switch.  I will try to remember to note that on the boxes of those X10 switches I have before I give them away to someone.  

And one thing I left out of my last response to Techman, I did a factory reset on the problematic switch after the first set of recommendations I received my first day of working with that switch.  It had no effect on the failure to link.  

Thanks, again,
Jimini

The date code 4918 indicates that the switch was built the 49th week of 2018. It's unusual for a newer switch to fail but it can happen. If that's the case just contact Smarthome, if you bought it directly from them,  and tell them that it's bad and you want it replaced. It's still within the 2 year warranty period.

What is the date code on your PLM?

[Jimini]

Yes, I purchased it directly from SmartHome.  

The PLM states Rev 2.4 and the Date code is either 4716 or 4718.  The last digit looks more like a 6 than an 8.  It possible to be 3 years old?