larryllix Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, zxplod said: @lilyoyo1 name one new Insteon device or significant Insteon development in the last 3-5 years. So yes, stagnet. Note, not talking about ISY. Talking about Insteon. Dual-band technology, Insteon siren, improved PLM, OnOff module, door and window modules. Every module has had firmware updates, not always better. Existing modules don't really need any improvements but newer device releases have been disappointing from Insteon. Original Zwave has been a complete flop and new non-compatible standard had to be created. ZigBee is even worse. They all have their growing problems. The youngest child always grows the most over the last few years. Thank Gawd there is ISY to help us through the tough times and make a complete system out of the shrapnel. Edited October 9, 2019 by larryllix 1
zxplod Posted October 9, 2019 Author Posted October 9, 2019 @larryllix not to be argumentative but aren't all or at least most of those over 3-5 years old? I know I have had most of my system for 5 years and have almost all of those things. Also, can you update firmware on devices without replacing the device? And for sure the best part of Insteon has been ISY. I would never touch Insteon without ISY.
simplextech Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 @zxplod I guess I'm curious about what devices or innovation you're looking to or comparing against? I have plenty of Z-Wave experience and am fairly newish to Insteon but so far it's a different ball game in terms of functionality and consistency. So what is it that you're "wanting" exactly?
Brian H Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 Steve Lee at one of the Spring Electronic shows. Said new things are on the way but an NDA prevented comments on what was in the works. That said. It was maybe six months ago and I have seen no announcement or preorder offers. Gee maybe by the Holiday this winter. ?
zxplod Posted October 9, 2019 Author Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) The biggest thing is that I have seen zero, literally zero, change in literally years. When it comes to technology that's bad. Certainly not what I would expect from a technology that is geared toward the tech savvy. If you aren't growing then you're dying. 3+ years with zero innovation is basically dead in tech time. We should be closer to the automation level from the Iron Man house but instead we are stuck with exactly the same things as we had 5 years ago. Just a few of the specific things that I would like and expect are RGB control, new thermostats, and in line dimmer/speed that are rated for fans. Edited October 9, 2019 by zxplod
larryllix Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) 43 minutes ago, zxplod said: @larryllix not to be argumentative but aren't all or at least most of those over 3-5 years old? I know I have had most of my system for 5 years and have almost all of those things. Also, can you update firmware on devices without replacing the device? And for sure the best part of Insteon has been ISY. I would never touch Insteon without ISY. Possibly I bought some old stock. I have a few ApplianceLincs. I don't find any need to improve on basic Insteon devices as they have been as stable and reliable as any other appliance in my house. Insteon is really lacking growth on analogue devices but what would they do with them if we all just had Insteon Hubs? I don't have any desire to use remote controlled door locks. I do not carry any keys, ever. I already have one hand combination locking deadbolts on doors, I can pass through without hardly missing a footstep rhythm, and they are typically automatically locked when closed. Of course, I live in an area where people leave their front doors unlocked, while they are out, and nobody I know around here has a security system, except my ISY created system. Insteon brought out a light bulb but I fear it was likely a sales flop. I do use many RGBWW smart bulbs but they are not Insteon. I want alternative remote control of them should Insteon disappear in my home. I guess an Insteon RGBWW bulb may be a welcome sight. IMHO webcams have nothing to do with HA so I don't care for Insteon effort in that field. Upgradeable firmware in Insteon devices may have helped in some spots but basic devices don't need it. End devices that need upgrading are ones that were released before enough QC and QC is not found very often anymore. OTOH, IED things could be coming back, distributing the CPU loads away from central controllers. Insteon devices already have some of that being able to tight link a lamp with a MS. Programmable and logic based timeout or lighting levels could be implemented. Edited October 9, 2019 by larryllix 1
zxplod Posted October 9, 2019 Author Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) It's just sad that there's not a single new product from a "cutting edge" technology company in at least 3 years. At a bare minimum I would expect some new thermostat as there's currently only one and it is straight out of 1998. RGB control is common now so that would be nice. A higher power fan dimmer since there is currently only fanlinc and it has a low power cap. Door locks, door bells, etc. you know, all the things that come up when you search "home automation", would be cool to have. Completely agree that surveillance should be kept separate as it isn't really automation/control. The only reason I initially installed z-wave was to get a half way modern looking thermostat. Z-wave does have most all the items listed above but some are certainly limited in feature. For example, they have RBG(WW) control but it is way behind in function compared to HUE or anything like that. It's good that at least it's on their radar and things are progressing though. I can deal with things not existing as long as development is happening. 3+ years completely stagnate though? No thanks. No more Insteon for me. It is a dead technology. X10 anyone? Edited October 9, 2019 by zxplod
lilyoyo1 Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 Over the last few years they've been working on improving quality inn their existing lined. Albeit these are changes you won't see but changes none the less. Now that I've answered your question, how about answering mine. What is it that you're seeing zwave switches do that insteon switches can't?
lilyoyo1 Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 1 hour ago, zxplod said: The biggest thing is that I have seen zero, literally zero, change in literally years. When it comes to technology that's bad. Certainly not what I would expect from a technology that is geared toward the tech savvy. If you aren't growing then you're dying. 3+ years with zero innovation is basically dead in tech time. We should be closer to the automation level from the Iron Man house but instead we are stuck with exactly the same things as we had 5 years ago. Just a few of the specific things that I would like and expect are RGB control, new thermostats, and in line dimmer/speed that are rated for fans. Have you seen what iron automation would cost. People complain about paying 50 bucks for a switch. Do you really think they would pay whatnot would cost to have that detailed of a home. No dimmer is rated for fans. They could create a switch but went the fanlinc route instead which I would prefer when compared to zwave offerings. Colored lights would be great. However, I wouldn't want a system that's inferior to what I use now. I've tried finaro's rgbw controller as well as aeotec bulbs. Both are sitting in a box somewhere unused. I would still take hue or lifx over both as they are light years ahead of either one. They can release a new thermostat. Would it be better than the ecobee 3s that I currently use? Probably not. Would it be better than what I would love to replace mine with (glas if they ever release an API). Definitely not. My thermostats were installed for style as much as they were for function. When I look at zwave offerings there's no way I would touch one of those either. We all are different so I'm not knocking you for sharing to see certain things. Since I have a system that can use multiple things, my ideals have changed. I no longer want to use any company for the sake of saying I have something. I go with the best thing available that works with the isy. Insteon or any company can create something just to say they have something. Reality is, there will probably be things better made. Since we are using the isy, the best available takes on a truer meaning. With that said, it's easy to innovate when you're playing catch up. In terms of ease of use, features, capabilities etc. you won't find zwave in the same ball park. Just like with smartphones, devices are simply getting to the point where you can't really innovate unless you're coming from nothing.
lilyoyo1 Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 1 hour ago, larryllix said: Possibly I bought some old stock. I have a few ApplianceLincs. I don't find any need to improve on basic Insteon devices as they have been as stable and reliable as any other appliance in my house. Insteon is really lacking growth on analogue devices but what would they do with them if we all just had Insteon Hubs? I don't have any desire to use remote controlled door locks. I do not carry any keys, ever. I already have one hand combination locking deadbolts on doors, I can pass through without hardly missing a footstep rhythm, and they are typically automatically locked when closed. Of course, I live in an area where people leave their front doors unlocked, while they are out, and nobody I know around here has a security system, except my ISY created system. Insteon brought out a light bulb but I fear it was likely a sales flop. I do use many RGBWW smart bulbs but they are not Insteon. I want alternative remote control of them should Insteon disappear in my home. I guess an Insteon RGBWW bulb may be a welcome sight. IMHO webcams have nothing to do with HA so I don't care for Insteon effort in that field. Upgradeable firmware in Insteon devices may have helped in some spots but basic devices don't need it. End devices that need upgrading are ones that were released before enough QC and QC is not found very often anymore. OTOH, IED things could be coming back, distributing the CPU loads away from central controllers. Insteon devices already have some of that being able to tight link a lamp with a MS. Programmable and logic based timeout or lighting levels could be implemented. It trips me out how upgradeable firmware is the go to zwave feature that differentiates them from insteon. Yet none of the oems are taking advantage of that for the most part. Some like aeotech and fibaro have used it to fix critical use bugs (which means they never should have been released) but none have used them to add new features. Take ge for example. They have a full line of zwave plus devices which can be upgraded with the new security features. Yet instead of doing so, they've started releasing newer versions of the same switch instead. A feature is only good if it's put to use. Most companies dont 1
mwester Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 zxplod, you're right on -- innovation is key, and Insteon has shown little over the past 3 - 5 years. The arguments by the Insteon fan-boys might be valid if home automation was a mature marketplace, for instance like your gasoline-powered automobile where there's little true innovation left to be done and the battle between the vendors is about "glitz" and "glitter". But that's clearly not the case in HA. In addition to new device types (where Insteon has actually removed devices - like the 10v dimmer device, and the siren), there's also the need for protocol enhancements (RF that works without synchronization with the power-line, for example, as well as the need for protocol extensions to provide security) -- and Insteon has shown no initiative in either of those areas. Swipes at other technology by pointing out their shortcomings doesn't eliminate the shortcomings of Insteon -- it does, however, point out that the entire industry is pretty suspect. 1
lilyoyo1 Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 1 hour ago, mwester said: zxplod, you're right on -- innovation is key, and Insteon has shown little over the past 3 - 5 years. The arguments by the Insteon fan-boys might be valid if home automation was a mature marketplace, for instance like your gasoline-powered automobile where there's little true innovation left to be done and the battle between the vendors is about "glitz" and "glitter". But that's clearly not the case in HA. In addition to new device types (where Insteon has actually removed devices - like the 10v dimmer device, and the siren), there's also the need for protocol enhancements (RF that works without synchronization with the power-line, for example, as well as the need for protocol extensions to provide security) -- and Insteon has shown no initiative in either of those areas. Swipes at other technology by pointing out their shortcomings doesn't eliminate the shortcomings of Insteon -- it does, however, point out that the entire industry is pretty suspect. I can agree with your last point. At the end of the day a light switch turns stuff on, off, or dim. The controller is what makes things great. I'd rather have a full function controller that allows for great things with the best of all worlds than a bunch of half baked products trying to do a bunch of stuff halfway. What you get wrong is that I'm not an insteon fanboy. If that were the case, I wouldn't have any zwave products nor a willingness to try them. I can speak on the differences because I use both and I've tried both. I just haven't found a single zwave switch that's surpasses insteon in ease of use and operation. Fanboys buy product from 1 vendor just because it's that vendor. I buy products that integrated with the controller that I use and gives me the best experience possible. That's insteon for lights, zwave for sensors and locks, hue for accent lights (color changing), ecobee for HVAC, and rain machine for irrigation. This includes using a multitude of different controllers such as homeseer, smartthings, and fibaro. The way zwave operates is a non starter for me. Their quality and design have improved with some mfg. (Aeotec glass switch) but until they do something about that popcorn effect, it's a hell no for me. I'd be more concerned about security if I had someone turning my lights on/off but I'm not. Until then I can live with someone possibly knowing a device address. The same goes for zwave. Unless either zwave or insteon can stop someone from breaking my windows or kicking in my door, Imma be ok. I'd rather watch my lights dim down, turn off in unison rather than the funky popcorn effect
brians Posted October 10, 2019 Posted October 10, 2019 If it weren't for ISY I would have dropped Insteon a long time ago. UDI was able to take a mess of different Insteon versions and devices, along with all their bus and quirks, and make it work all together seamlessly... Insteon by itself, using Smart Home's controllers, is a disaster. I remember when I first got Insteon, I was trying to do a simple task like make two SwitchLinc dimmers have the LEDs dim level synchronized in a virtual 3-way configuration... there was no way in hell I could get that to work... but as soon as I redid everything with my ISY99i it was like magic. Since then I have a 994i and lots of Insteon. Last year I got the new Z-Wave module. In order to get my Schlage lock working, and to make reliable I had to purchase a couple Z-Wave plug in wall switches to act as repeaters. Before all this I that I had a HomeKit lock which was 100x easier to get working but I wanted one integrated into my ISY and only real option is Z-Wave. Now that I have Z-Wave I can easily add more switches but I would rather stick with Insteon for those because it is reliable (when it works). Z-Wave seems more suitable to add weird devices that Insteon doesn't support eg. my WaterCop water shut off device, more options for leak sensors etc. Having said all this, a Fan controller seems like it would be a good fit for a Z-Wave product and am surprised nobody has made one yet that works similar to Insteon FanLinc. 1
brians Posted October 10, 2019 Posted October 10, 2019 (edited) Here we can buy things like this.... https://www.amazon.ca/Universal-Ceiling-Receiver-Replacement-Complete/dp/B07DN7J16T/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=Eogifee+Universal+Ceiling+Fan+Remote+Control+and+Receiver+Kit+Replacement+of+Hampton+Bay+Harbor+Breeze+Hunter+KUJCE9103+FAN-11T+FAN-53T+2AAZPFAN-53T+Kit&linkCode=gs3&linkId=ec71f17165cbc791f7887a0eb5839212&qid=1570668205&s=hi&sr=1-5 Should be simple for a Z-Wave manufacturer to take something like that and add Z-Wave control to it. https://www.amazon.ca/Enerwave-ZWN-RSM1-PLUS-Wireless-Control-Required/dp/B01G7OD3ME/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=zwave%2Bmicro%2Bswitch&qid=1570670413&s=hi&sr=1-4&th=1 This we need with a power output control for fan speed. It can work as simple fan on/off with light though and adjust speed via pull chain. Edited October 10, 2019 by brians
brians Posted October 10, 2019 Posted October 10, 2019 I just ordered another FanLinc after researching and no solution.
DaveF Posted October 10, 2019 Posted October 10, 2019 Looks like it is still in the planning stages, but Inovelli has z-wave fan controllers on their roadmap. Have to see if it gets produced, but their new on/off switches did finally ship. https://community.inovelli.com/t/fan-switch-project-windy-city/78 https://community.inovelli.com/t/fan-light-switch-project-hurricane/23/46
asbril Posted October 11, 2019 Posted October 11, 2019 6 hours ago, DaveF said: Inovelli has z-wave fan controllers on their roadmap I thought so too, but when speaking to them a few weeks, it seems that it is very far on their roadmap. It really is a shame that no manufacturer has come with a double switch for fan & fan light. Inovelli has made innovative devices but they are running late with the delivery of their new products. I pre-ordered one of their new devices several months ago with expected delivery in July and I am still waiting in October. 1
zxplod Posted October 11, 2019 Author Posted October 11, 2019 Exactly guys. Another thing that’s shocking... no in wall motion or thermal sensor. The only thing Insteon makes is a wall mounted battery powered one straight out of the X10 days. It just blows my mind.
lilyoyo1 Posted October 11, 2019 Posted October 11, 2019 14 minutes ago, zxplod said: Exactly guys. Another thing that’s shocking... no in wall motion or thermal sensor. The only thing Insteon makes is a wall mounted battery powered one straight out of the X10 days. It just blows my mind. You mean like everyone else who makes zwave devices? There is only 1 in wall motion sensor and thats by GE
lilyoyo1 Posted October 11, 2019 Posted October 11, 2019 It really doesnt matter at the end of the day. We all have the ISY. Whether you like insteon, Zwave, or something else, the ISY allows us to use them all together. Where insteon lacks there may be a Zwave alternative. Where Zwave lacks, there may be an insteon alternative or something else. It all comes down to what floats your boat.
zxplod Posted October 11, 2019 Author Posted October 11, 2019 @lilyoyo1 is 1 more or less than 0? Does 1 mean that ones exist whereas 0 means that one doesn’t exist? Exactly. Why such an Insteon fanboy? I like them too but defending zero development in 3-5 years is def fanboy status. Why? Do you work for them? And I’m not giving z-wave a free pass either but at least they’re progressing. And def agree thank god for ISY or we’d all be screwed.
zxplod Posted October 11, 2019 Author Posted October 11, 2019 And I’d rather have Insteon if they’d get their act together. Their complacency is frustrating. The ONLY reason I have z wave is because Insteon left me no other option.
larryllix Posted October 11, 2019 Posted October 11, 2019 2 minutes ago, zxplod said: @lilyoyo1 is 1 more or less than 0? Does 1 mean that ones exist whereas 0 means that one doesn’t exist? Exactly. Why such an Insteon fanboy? I like them too but defending zero development in 3-5 years is def fanboy status. Why? Do you work for them? And I’m not giving z-wave a free pass either but at least they’re progressing. And def agree thank god for ISY or we’d all be screwed. Zwave is only coming up to Insteon standards where devices work with each other. Yes they have progressed more in the last 3-5 years because they had so far to go. We will just have to wait to see what each comes up with. I don't see that many new toys I need yet and the ones I want are not either protocols because Insteon filled all my basic HA needs. I am not big on remote control, other than vocal. That isn't HA. 1
lilyoyo1 Posted October 11, 2019 Posted October 11, 2019 13 minutes ago, zxplod said: @lilyoyo1 is 1 more or less than 0? Does 1 mean that ones exist whereas 0 means that one doesn’t exist? Exactly. Why such an Insteon fanboy? I like them too but defending zero development in 3-5 years is def fanboy status. Why? Do you work for them? And I’m not giving z-wave a free pass either but at least they’re progressing. And def agree thank god for ISY or we’d all be screwed. Quit with the fan boy shit. I use both insteon and zwave (amongst others). Most likely I have much more invested in zwave devices than you do yet I'm the fan boy. The fact is, the way insteon operates is simply better than zwave. If you're ok with your lights turning on 1 at a time instead of in sync it's ok. If you're ok with needing to find a manual any time you want to change ramp rates etc. That's your business..I like insteon over zwave because I can do more with it. That's not being a fan boy. That's enjoying something that works to my liking. I go for the best technology for my needs not technology for the sake of technology (or to say I have other inferior choices). At this junction zwave is still inferior. Should that ever change I will switch. Until then I'll use insteon (unless I can talk my wife into Control4)
zxplod Posted October 11, 2019 Author Posted October 11, 2019 (edited) Not really. Z wave has multiple thermostats. RGBWW control (although basic). In wall motion. Locks. Etc. Plus literally every device that Insteon has. Z wave **was** catching up but passed them years ago when they stopped devolving. Protocol wise z wave 2 is pretty darn good. Even if there is staggered device response at least there are devices to respond. But again, my main point is ZERO literally ZERO changes in 3-5 years. Maybe longer. As a business owner I know that complacency = closure. It is a shame that Insteon just dropped the ball and surrendered to other technologies. It is hard to compete with a technology that multiple manufactures use but heck, why don’t they license it out if that’s the issue? I just don’t get what their deal is. Edited October 11, 2019 by zxplod
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