Programming for 2420M Motion Sensor / dual purposes

[TJF1960]

I originally posted this in “Questions and Answers and it was suggest I post in “How to and Tutorials†so here it is.

 

In my garage I have a light controlled by a Icon 2876SB in wall relay switch and a 2420M motion sensor. I wanted the light to turn on as soon as there was motion in the garage and only at night. I didn’t want the 1-2 second delay caused by the motion triggering a program in ISY and then the program turning on the in wall switch. I also wanted the ISY to see any motion night or day for other programs, like occupancy or the addition of a chime module or cameras and such.

 

I found by setting up the components as detailed below that I was able to accomplish the above.

 

1) MS Jumper 1 (Sensitivity) and Jumper 2 (Disable LED) can be set to whatever you prefer. Jumper 3 (Night Only Mode) is set off. Jumper 4 (On-Only Mode) set to off as well, however I believe it would still work fine you would just have to have a program to turn off the light after a predetermined time.

 

2) If the device to ultimately be linked with a MS is a Dimmer (like the Icon 2876DB or the KPL 2486D then add the device as normal. Unfortunately, right now, in step 4, only dimmer type devices are selectable, no relay type devices are listed. I am told this is a bug in version 2.7.5 (I am not sure about earlier versions) and will be fixed. So, for now, if the device is a switch (relay style like the Icon 2876SB or the KPL 2486S) then when adding the device into ISY enter the device address then select the part number of the “Dimmer†counterpart. For instance if installing a 2876S in wall relay switch then enter the 2876DB as the part number so ISY thinks the new device is a dimmer. This way the ISY is tricked into thinking the device is a dimmer. Or if installing the 2486S KPL relay style then select the 2486D dimmer instead.

 

3) Create a new Scene in ISY with the MS (which will be added as a “Controller) and the new device using the normal procedures, except that the device being added to the scene needs to be added as a “Controller†not a “responderâ€. Proper results will not be obtained if the device is added as a responder.

 

 

4) Create a new program in ISY specifying what ever conditions are needed. Under actions, select Adjust Scene. In the drop down menu for “In Scene†select the MS in the scene (not the MS Scene, but just the MS in the scene). In the drop down menu for “Set†select the new device just added to the new scene. For the “On Level†select any level if the device is truly a dimmer, or select 0 or 100% if the device is really a relay type switch.

 

When the new program(s) is/are run and become true the on level for the MS will automatically change to the desired level in the program(s).

 

Here is an example of 2 programs I am currently using:

 

If

Program 'Time Sunrise-10 to Sunset+10' is True

 

Then

In Scene 'Garage MS-Sensor' Set 'Garage KPL 1 Lite' 0% (On Level)

 

Else

- No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

(The above program becomes true at 10 minutes to Sunrise and becomes false at 10 minutes after sunset. So during the day when the motion sensor is activated the garage light will not turn on).

 

If

Program 'Time Sunset+10 to Sunrise-10' is True

 

Then

In Scene 'Garage MS-Sensor' Set 'Garage KPL 1 Lite' 100% (On Level)

 

Else

- No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

 

(The above program becomes true at 10 minutes after Sunset and false at 10 minutes before sunrise. So during the night when the motion sensor is activated the garage light will turn on).

 

So now when motion is detected in the garage at night the motion detector will turn the light on immediately and will stay on for as long as there is motion. And during the day the ISY is able to run other programs based on motion in the garage as well.

 

So far I have used this set up in the garage and master bathroom and it has worked flawlessly. In the master bathroom I am actually using a real dimmer, so I was able to have the lights turn on with motion to 75% after dusk, then at 10:00pm they would only turn on to 30% with motion. But with a tap of the wall switch they would turn on full brightness if we want, turning off when motion has stopped. Then from sunrise to sunset they will not turn on. But again, the ISY knows when there is motion in the bathroom, night or day and the lights at night turn on immediately when triggered by the MS.

 

Since I am still new to the ISY and Insteon I would appreciate any comments or suggestions or problems that may arise with this setup.

 

Thank you all for your help, and I hope this helps others.

 

Tim

[Illusion]

Very cool. Excellent use of the adjust scene feature. I had not thought of this use of the feature.

 

(The above program becomes true at 10 minutes to Sunrise and becomes false at 10 minutes after sunrise. So during the day when the motion sensor is activated the garage light will not turn on).

 

(The above program becomes false at 10 minutes to Sunrise and true at 10 minutes after sunrise. So during the night when the motion sensor is activated the garage light will turn on).

 

I think one of the "Sunrise" in each statement should be "Sunset", no?

[TJF1960]

Very nice catch, Thank you. I have corrected it.

 

I think one of the "Sunrise" in each statement should be "Sunset", no?

[slopdog]

Good idea. I have implemented this setup for my upstairs hallway light, so if anyone gets up at night, lights come on dim. Works great, but the only problem i foresee is if you need to have a light(s) on during the day for some reason, it would keep going off every time motion is detected. Probably not going to be an issue for your garage, or my hallway, but other locations may have issues.

 

I wish there was a way to combine the quickness of a hard coded scene and the flexibility of a program . I think my remaining motion sensors, i am going to control them with programs. Hate that 1-2 second delay, but hard to get things working correctly without using programs.

 

By the way, can the 2420M's be used outside?

[TJF1960]

Works great, but the only problem i foresee is if you need to have a light(s) on during the day for some reason, it would keep going off every time motion is detected. Probably not going to be an issue for your garage, or my hallway, but other locations may have issues.

I have since included this set up in our master bathroom but included extra programs to offer 4 differet On levels depending on the time of day or night. I also created some programs which when the light is turned on manually during the day will reset the On level so that any motion will turn the lights on, until 10 minutes after the last motion detection then resets the On level to the previous state. It has been working very well so far (about 3 months). In fact I have added similar programs to our entry hall light and my work room light.

 

 

By the way, can the 2420M's be used outside?

I dont see why not. The two halves of the case have a seal and the battery door is sealed as well. I used 1 outside for about 6 months without any problems.

 

Tim

[wwat]

I have implemented an MS and SL in the bathroom via programs which turns the light on at various levels depending on time of day, unless manually adjusted the light turns off after 4 mins. As we all know the problem is the delay, at night it takes longer to for the light to turn on than to get to the sink.

 

I like to implement a system that turns on the light instantly at various levels depending on time of day and then turns it off after a certain time. If anyone manually interacts with the lights then that takes precedence.

 

I've read the above posts several times but am uncertain whether it could do what I need with a few mods.

 

Appreciate any help with this.

 

Thanks,

Wayne

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi wwat,

 

All you have to do is to create folders for those times. If everything is based on time of day, then the condition for the times should be at the folder level and no other conditions should be set for each individual program.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[wwat]

thanks Michel, I'm really not understanding how the ISY can control a swichlink if the switchlink is connected to the motion sensor directly.

 

My understanding was that you can either control it directly or via ISY, can you or someone explain how this works.

 

Many thanks,

Wayne

[TJF1960]

I like to implement a system that turns on the light instantly at various levels depending on time of day and then turns it off after a certain time. If anyone manually interacts with the lights then that takes precedence.

 

I've read the above posts several times but am uncertain whether it could do what I need with a few mods.

Hi Wayne,

 

I have set up 4 different on levels for our masterbath. Each of the on levels is instant when motion is detected. In the evening the lites turn on with motion to 75%, after 9:30PM they turn on at 30%, after 3:30AM if we are up they will turn on to 60% and during the day they do not turn on at all.

I have also set up a manual override which will turn on to 80% with a single tap or 90% with a double tap. 5 minutes after the motion shuts off with no further motion I have the programming resume its normal daily schedule. If the motion turns off then back on during the 5 minute time period the lites will turn on to 80 or 90% whichever tap was used. I have been very happy with the way it all works, although on a few rare occasions it would be nice to have the lites stay on after the ms turned off. I have done some experimental programming which would trick the system and give the appearance the ms off trigger was ignored. It worked pretty well but was very program intensive.

 

I like Michel's suggestion of using folders and had I used them as he suggested it probably would have cleaned up my programming a bit. In fact when I continue with the experimenting mentioned above I may be able to utilize them to make programming easier.

 

Anyway for now it works fine.

 

thanks Michel, I'm really not understanding how the ISY can control a swichlink if the switchlink is connected to the motion sensor directly.

 

My understanding was that you can either control it directly or via ISY, can you or someone explain how this works.

In order for this to work the SL and MS have to be linked to the ISY. Scenes are then created in the ISY for the SL and MS as needed.

I believe the scene adjust works in this situation because the on level and ramp rate is stored in the SL and not the MS. If they were stored in the MS this wouldn’t work without putting the MS in programming mode.

 

Tim

[wwat]

I think that its almost working. Just having a few issues I need clarified.

 

My understanding is that we dont need to create a link between the MS and the SL, is this correct? (Like you would if you didn't have an ISY)

 

Michel suggested putting programs within a time constrained folder. Should the program still run when the 'If' condition is empty, the action is in the 'Then' part of the structure but I haven't put in an 'If' or 'Else' statements. So the only part filled out is the 'Then' part.

 

The folders time condition was something like this:

Run programs in folder when time is 10:00 PM

 

thanks,

[TJF1960]

Hi Wayne,

 

My understanding is that we dont need to create a link between the MS and the SL, is this correct? (Like you would if you didn't have an ISY)

Right, you simply link the MS to the ISY, then link the SL to the ISY. Then create a scene in ISY and drag the MS and SL into the scene.

 

Michel suggested putting programs within a time constrained folder. Should the program still run when the 'If' condition is empty, the action is in the 'Then' part of the structure but I haven't put in an 'If' or 'Else' statements. So the only part filled out is the 'Then' part.

A program without an "If" statement will not run until called upon by another program (or selecting "Run Then" in the "Program Summary" tab).

 

Any programs (even "Then" only programs) in a folder that is "False" will not run.

 

The folders time condition was something like this:

Run programs in folder when time is 10:00 PM

I believe the folder will only run for 1 second. It will turn "True" at 10:00:00 PM, then turn "False" at 10:00:01 PM. Better to have "10:00 PM to 6:00 AM the next day."

 

Tim

[wwat]

Hi Tim,

 

A program without an "If" statement will not run until called upon by another program (or selecting "Run Then" in the "Program Summary" tab).

Any programs (even "Then" only programs) in a folder that is "False" will not run.

 

All you have to do is to create folders for those times. If everything is based on time of day, then the condition for the times should be at the folder level and no other conditions should be set for each individual program.

 

The above quote from Michel suggests that no other conditions are necessary in the program part. Is there something I'm missing.

So how do I run a program that has no conditions? Even if I set up another program to run it that would have to have conditions yes?

 

 

I believe the folder will only run for 1 second. It will turn "True" at 10:00:00 PM, then turn "False" at 10:00:01 PM. Better to have "10:00 PM to 6:00 AM the next day."

 

The program is only a single line of code, I would have though it will execute if you specify a single line. Looking back I think I was having other problems with the ISY itself because I did try a time period and that was not working either, I think ISY lost its ability to execute folders with a time place constraint.

 

 

THanks for you help and feedback,

Wayne

[TJF1960]

I would like to clear up an incorrect statement I made.

 

TJF1960 wrote:

I believe the folder will only run for 1 second. It will turn "True" at 10:00:00 PM, then turn "False" at 10:00:01 PM. Better to have "10:00 PM to 6:00 AM the next day."

At 10:00PM the folder will turn "True" and stay true (I dont know what I was thinking ) However if you want the programs to run in the folder only as specified times then using "From 10:00PM to 6:00AM next day) would turn the folder true at 10PM and false at 6AM. Sorry about that.

 

So any program in that folder can run if their conditions are met while that folder is "True."

 

Program name: MBath Sink Lite 0% Adj

If
  - No Conditions - (To add one, press 'Schedule' or 'Condition')

Then
       Wait  2 seconds
       In Scene 'MBath MS-Sensor' Set 'MBath Sink Lites' 0% (On Level)
       Set 'MBath Sink Lites' 1 (Beep Duration)

Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

If this program (Program name: MBath Sink Lite 0% Adj) was in the folder and the folder became "True" this program still wouldn't run until something called it to run.

 

But if this program (Program name: MBath Sink Lite Day) were also in the folder:

 

Program name: MBath Sink Lite Day

If
       Program 'Time Sunrise+10 to Sunset-10' is True

Then
       Wait  2 seconds
       Run Program 'MBath Sink Lite 0% Adj' (Then Path)

Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

Then if the folder were "True" and the If statement (of MBath Sink Lite Day) became true then this program would call the previous program (MBath Sink Lite 0% Adj) to run.

 

Tim

[wwat]

Thanks for that clarification Tim.

 

 

If I was to put a time condition in the program what is the value of using the folder time condition?

 

Hopefully Michel can clarify the question about running a program which doesn't have a condition.

 

thanks again for your help, this is something I have been wanting to do for a while now (fix light delay issue that is).

 

Regards,

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi wwat,

 

Yes, the condition could be Every day from 12:00 AM to 12:00 AM next day. This is always true.

 

I like folders because they organize things nicely.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[wwat]

I have come up against a problem which may mean I have to revert back to the old way of controlling the lights.

 

In my case I have a Switchlink and Motion Sensor. I can get everything working except the manual override of the lights.

 

If I manually operate the light via the paddle while the motion sensor program is in operation and then walk out of the room it will stay that way. If I were then to walk back into the room the sensor would trigger changing the light level back to that of the scene. I dont think there is any way around this is there? I need it to stay at the level it was manually set too.

 

Thanks,

Wayne

[TJF1960]

If I understand correctly, it should be possible. You may need to add a couple of programs to do it.

I have mine set so that after 5 minutes of no motion in the room the On level reverts back to the original programmed level. But if motion is detected within the 5 minutes the lights turn back on to the manual switched level (preset scene on levels).

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi wwat,

 

Please post your program here. We'll take a look.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[wwat]

Hi Tim/Michel.

 

Thanks for your help.

Everything is working except when the paddle is manually operated (make light a little brighter for example) and then person leaves the room and walks back in after some time. The light level changes back to the scenes current level.

 

 

Just to reiterate the features that I am aiming to achieve:

 

1) No 1 second delay in turning on lights after motion is detected. (working)

 

2) If a person walks out of room without touching paddle, the light will turn off according to a timer program (See below). (working)

 

3) If a person manually operates paddle and changes lighting level, then the level should never change from that level unless a person manually changes level via paddle. (Not working)

(The exception to this is if the person turns the light 'Off' which should revert control back to the motion sensor routine.)

 

4) Motion sensor activitated lighting level will be different depending on time of day. (Working)

 

 

Current Setup:

Motion Sensor Pins:

Pin 3: Night-Only Mode is deactivated

Pin 4: On-Only Mode is activated

 

Scene contains 1 motion sensor and 1 switchlink, both have been added as controllers.

 

All programs have been enabled.

 

 

Main Initialisation Program

 

If
       Control 'Main Bath MS - Sensor' is switched On
   And Status  'Main Bath SL - Light' is Off
   And Folder  'Bathroom - Day' is False

Then
       Run Program 'Light Timer' (If)

Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

Timer Program

 

If
       Control 'Main Bath SL - Light' is not switched On
   And Control 'Main Bath SL - Light' is not switched Off
   And Control 'Main Bath SL - Light' is not switched Fast On
   And Control 'Main Bath SL - Light' is not switched Fast Off
   And Control 'Main Bath SL - Light' is not switched Fade Up
   And Control 'Main Bath SL - Light' is not switched Fade Down
   And Control 'Main Bath SL - Light' is not switched Fade Stop
   And Control 'Main Bath SL - Light' is not switched Bright
   And Control 'Main Bath SL - Light' is not switched Dim

Then
       Wait  4 minutes 
       Set 'Main Bath SL - Light' Off

Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

Each of the following programs are in their own folder, each folder has a conditional time period, they run once per day when their folder is true to change the scene lighting level required for that period:

 

If
       Folder  'Bathroom - Day' is True

Then
       In Scene 'Main Bath MS - Sensor' Set 'Main Bath SL - Light' 0% (On Level)

Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

If
       Folder  'Bathroom - Late Morning' is True

Then
       In Scene 'Main Bath MS - Sensor' Set 'Main Bath SL - Light' 40% (On Level)

Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

If
       Folder  'Bathroom - Morning' is True

Then
       In Scene 'Main Bath MS - Sensor' Set 'Main Bath SL - Light' 18% (On Level)

Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

If
       Folder  'Bathrooom - Evening' is True

Then
       In Scene 'Main Bath MS - Sensor' Set 'Main Bath SL - Light' 75% (On Level)

Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

[/code]

[Sub-Routine]

Hello Wayne,

 

Because the ISY does not have any method to store the current level of a light you would have to do something like this. One program in each of your folders.

 

In folder Bathroom - Late Morning

If
       Control 'Main Bath SL - Light' is switched On
   And Control 'Main Bath SL - Light' is not switched Off 

Then
       In Scene 'Main Bath MS - Sensor' Set 'Main Bath SL - Light' X% (On Level)

Else
       In Scene 'Main Bath MS - Sensor' Set 'Main Bath SL - Light' 40% (On Level)

 

where X% is the level that the SwitchLinc uses. Then when someone returns to the room the MS will set the level to that of the switch. Not perfect because it doesn't account for bright/dim pushes.

 

Your other option is to unlink the motion sensor from the switch and use a program to turn the light on.

 

Rand

[wwat]

Rand,

 

Many thanks for your feedback, I suspected as much. Variables would make life a lot easier in these situations.

 

I heard some talk of variables in the past, is this part of ISY's short term plans?

 

I'm wondering whether a work around might be to create a program with 10 'If' conditions 1-10% 11-20% 21-30% etc and change the light level to the nearest one, that way it would not be as noticable. For that matter I could do a program with 100 'If' conditions. and call it from each folder.

 

 

Thanks,

Wayne

[Sub-Routine]

Rand,

 

Many thanks for your feedback, I suspected as much. Variables would make life a lot easier in these situations.

 

I heard some talk of variables in the past, is this part of ISY's short term plans?

 

I'm wondering whether a work around might be to create a program with 10 'If' conditions 1-10% 11-20% 21-30% etc and change the light level to the nearest one, that way it would not be as noticable. For that matter I could do a program with 100 'If' conditions. and call it from each folder.

 

 

Thanks,

Wayne

 

Yes, that should work. Perhaps programs to check 0-5% set to 3%, etc. would be close enough.

 

Rand

[wwat]

A quick follow up to say this worked perfectly. I created 10 programs and you can hardly notice the change in light levels. This worked out to be a really good solution.

 

Regards,

Wayne

[ryarber]

Would it be possible to link the MS to a scene and set it to send only the on command via the jumper and then control the off sequence with programs?

 

That would give you the best of both worlds. The on sequence would be immediate, but the off commands for the scene would be controlled by programs on a timer.

 

The only caveat I could foresee is that I can't see a way to restart the timer if there is no off command ever sent by the MS.

 

Could the ISY be programmed in such a way so that a subsequent On command by the MS be used to restart the timer if a program is already running?

[Sub-Routine]

Yes that is possible. And the ISY can restart the timer when it sees another On, but the MS won't send another On until it times out with no motion for the set time period.

 

You may want to try it using only a program. We have that in our kitchen and are not bothered by the delay, though it is probably <0.5 second here. Certainly not 1-2 seconds. I watch for the Off and then start the Wait. If another On comes the Wait quits.

 

If
       Control 'Kitchen Motion Sensor' is switched Off
   And Control 'Kitchen Motion Sensor' is not switched On

Then
       ....

 

Rand

 

Would it be possible to link the MS to a scene and set it to send only the on command via the jumper and then control the off sequence with programs?

 

That would give you the best of both worlds. The on sequence would be immediate, but the off commands for the scene would be controlled by programs on a timer.

 

The only caveat I could foresee is that I can't see a way to restart the timer if there is no off command ever sent by the MS.

 

Could the ISY be programmed in such a way so that a subsequent On command by the MS be used to restart the timer if a program is already running?