Dual ISY/PLMs for redundancy/reliability?

[madcodger]

We are purchasing a vacation home in a remote area that gets very cold with much snow in winter. We’ll have an autostart backup generator with a very large propane tank (1,00 gallons, and will likely double that). The property also uses propane for heat, and when not there we’ll keep indoor temp at around 42 (just enough to prevent pipes from freezing). I want to install an automation system there for monitoring and to turn up heat before we arrive, and since we already use Insteon and ISY in our current home I have some familiarity with them. And, as much as I have complained about the user interface for ISY, I must admit that it has never, ever failed (impressive!) BUT the PLM has failed, which renders the whole system useless for control. So, I’m hoping to reduce the risk of a failed PLM.

My main concern with this vacation home is reliability and redundancy when we are not there, as there is only one nearby neighbor who sometimes travels, and the place can get snowed in for two weeks without power. We don’t want to just winterize it because we will visit every few weeks even in winter. So keeping the heat going is critical. Based on that, I wondered if I could just run two ISY systems (each with its own PLM), and have devices such as the thermostat connected to both? My theory is that I could have the primary system put out a “heartbeat” via the PLM (maybe turn on and off a switch?) that the secondary system would monitor. As long as the primary system remains active, the secondary system would just remain dormant. But if the primary went down, then the secondary could take over.

Can this be done? And if not, is there a better way to achieve my overall goal of reliability and redundancy for a system that may be inaccessible for days, during very cold weather? Thanks for any thoughts and ideas.

[lilyoyo1]

Rather than run 2 isy setups, I would use a well established thermostat separately from the isy such as the Ecobee 3. 

This would give you peace of mind that your system is in good hands with something you don't have to be worried about failing. You would have remote control over it and could still add it to your Isy via Polyglot for additional capabilities.

[larryllix]

If WiFi isn't already available an older mobile phone set to provide HotSpot service and a cheaper data only plan could give you a very reliable connection. You would have some battery backup built in to the phone. Ecobee stats heal their WiFi very well after outages. Mine have never missed but other brands need to be power cycled almost every time.

[Techman]

The Venstar thermostats are reliable and can be controlled via a Smartphone app. All that's required is a internet connection and  a/c power. They are totally independent from the ISY.

You would also be able to monitor interior humidity and temperature remotely.

https://venstar.com/thermostats/colortouch/

[mwester]

Been there -- my case was an ancient farmhouse so i wasn't too worried about how my solutions looked, you may need to take some care, though.

Here's what I learned:

a) Hard-wire everything important.  Avoid Insteon, WiFi, or anything else that doesn't have its own separate wires for communication.  The problems with wifi are obvous, but it turned out that Insteon was very sensitive to generators (translation: didn't work at all on the admittedly-low-budget generator I bought).

b) Instrument everything you can!  I put in a small Linux device (pre-dated the Raspberry Pi, but that's what I'd use today if I had to do it again), so I had lots of room for wired buses.  One that proved unexpectedly invaluable was the string of one-wire temperature sensors that I had.  I ran a couple to the basement, wired to the water in and out pipes on the boiler to monitor the heat there -- I put one on the wall near the main thermostat -- the rest I just stuck in various rooms where convenient as I tacked up the wire running from the thermostat wall to the garage door, then out to the basement stairs, and in (yes, ancient old house -- the basement stairs were outside...).  Turns out that a massive temperature anomoly being reported actually was telling us that a window had been broken (tree limb after a huge fall storm).  I was unable to instrument the heating oil tank (you should be able to get options for that on your propane tanks, though) -- but over the 5 years, I was able to easily predict the oil level by collecting the run-times for the boiler from the thermostat and boiler instrumentation.

c) Cameras.  Not for thieves -- we left worst of those behind in Chicago!  Rather, just so we could observe the house remotely -- snow load on the roofs after a storm was one concern.  Generally, though, it helped me prepare for a visit -- does it look like I can get into the driveway, or should I expect to park on the street and shovel for a couple hours (after driving for the better part of a day - yay, what fun!).

Note what's absent -- no controls.  I deliberately avoided that temptation -- there was quite enough to go wrong without me adding gadgetry that might fail and add to the problems.  I actually removed the set-back thermostat in the house, and replaced it with an ancient mechanical Honeywell thermostat -- reliability.  It might have been nice to arrive to a warm house, but we preferred to live with  a bit of a chill for a few hours rather than risk something going wrong with an electronic thingummy and having the house freeze.  (Power was unreliable - and glitches were common -- I'd already observed that I generally had to reboot the cable box every time we arrived after a summer storm, so I wanted as little computing equipment running as possible - and what I did use, was on a UPS.)

Oh -- one big concern was water - the plumbing was prehistoric... I started by turning off the well pump when I'd leave the place, which worked great in the summer.  In the winter, I worried about a couple of poorly-insulated pipes that had a history of freezing, so I started draining the house pipes as well -- that was probably reasonable given the house was a "short term" thing -- but the de-pressurization and re-pressurization of the plumbing proved to cause a lot a headaches (read: leaks in pipes and fittings).  If I had to do it over again, I'd spend the time to insulate those pipes, and settle for just turning off the water pump.  Note that plastic piping (cpvc or pex) won't have such a problem with that...

[nathan]

Seems to me that you will decrease the reliability of the system by trying to add this type of redundancy, it is hard to get right and know that the other system is dead without more complications like a quorums and kill switches.

Why not wire in a parallel backup coil based thermostat to keep the heat set to a minimum? Use a completely separate temperature logging system (wireless tags?) in addition to whatever the ISY is doing. Redundant reporting but not redundant control beyond the simple coil t-stat.

[jec6613]

I don't think a second ISY would be a wise choice.  Now, a first one, that's a great idea.  A great way for basic monitoring and triggering events, and it's bulletproof reliable compared to the other reasonably priced options.

I'd put the well pump on a 240V load controller, and just kick it off when you leave - that will help with the freezing issues.  The leak sensors are also good, as are remote temperature sensors.  Go with a good thermostat, not Insteon: Honeywell or similar.  Insteon RF will work pretty well on a generator, but once you're on generator you need a minimum load for the sine wave to be stable so powerline will not be reliable when you're away.  I use a couple of 100W incandescent bulbs to soak the load on our home generator during the day, you may need more with such a low draw on generator power.  So leak sensors and door sensors are good, the PLM is fine receiving RF, but the wired in devices you can't count on them working.  Z-Wave for the load controller and leak sensors (and even thermostat) are also great options here.

Now, your backup?  Look up Sensaphone.  It's a full second set of sensors that can auto-dial or otherwise alert when something goes wrong, even if it's your ISY going down.  They're the industry standard in remote monitoring - usually the IMS4000 since we're monitoring server equipment, but any of it is really good for a property like this.  I've never even heard of one going down, and since it's 100% different code and hardware the chances of both going down are almost nonexistent.

Also, if you have a Generac or similar generator, look into running Genmon, which can tie into the ISY via Nodelink.

[madcodger]

15 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Rather than run 2 isy setups, I would use a well established thermostat separately from the isy such as the Ecobee 3. 

This would give you peace of mind that your system is in good hands with something you don't have to be worried about failing. You would have remote control over it and could still add it to your Isy via Polyglot for additional capabilities.

Thanks for the thought and reply. With respect, I must say that I no longer find either Ecobee or Nest to be reliable for this type of remote application. I actually own four Ecobees (two lites, a 3 and a 4) in two other properties. The 4 froze up on us last week, losing contact with wifi and requiring a reconnection while we were away (talked a person doing work on the building through it). And, their service goes down from time to time at the API level. I was once a fan, and find them fine for a suburban home, but not for this type of application, at least without some backup.

 

[madcodger]

13 hours ago, larryllix said:

If WiFi isn't already available an older mobile phone set to provide HotSpot service and a cheaper data only plan could give you a very reliable connection. You would have some battery backup built in to the phone. Ecobee stats heal their WiFi very well after outages. Mine have never missed but other brands need to be power cycled almost every time.

Thanks Larry, but see reply above. Just had to do a human intervention reset last week. Pass on Ecobee for this application. As for backup, will likely Dual WAN at router (failover/failback) but even cellular at this location is very spotty.

[madcodger]

12 hours ago, Techman said:

The Venstar thermostats are reliable and can be controlled via a Smarthome app. All that's required is a internet connection and  a/c power. They are totally independent from the ISY.

You would also be able to monitor interior humidity and temperature remotely.

https://venstar.com/thermostats/colortouch/

Thanks. Will take a look.

[madcodger]

8 hours ago, nathan said:

Seems to me that you will decrease the reliability of the system by trying to add this type of redundancy, it is hard to get right and know that the other system is dead without more complications like a quorums and kill switches.

Why not wire in a parallel backup coil based thermostat to keep the heat set to a minimum? Use a completely separate temperature logging system (wireless tags?) in addition to whatever the ISY is doing. Redundant reporting but not redundant control beyond the simple coil t-stat.

After thinking about this more today, I think you are exactly right. Believe an old-fashioned mechanical stat wired in parallel to the connected stat is the best idea. May also put in ISY for control and primary monitoring, and then perhaps a Homeseer Zee for backup temp monitoring but not control (1 wire, perhaps). That leaves the internet connection as the point of greatest vulnerability, but at least the heat can stay on. Thanks for the good idea and caution.

[madcodger]

12 hours ago, mwester said:

Been there -- my case was an ancient farmhouse so i wasn't too worried about how my solutions looked, you may need to take some care, though.

Here's what I learned:

a) Hard-wire everything important.  Avoid Insteon, WiFi, or anything else that doesn't have its own separate wires for communication.  The problems with wifi are obvous, but it turned out that Insteon was very sensitive to generators (translation: didn't work at all on the admittedly-low-budget generator I bought).

b) Instrument everything you can!  I put in a small Linux device (pre-dated the Raspberry Pi, but that's what I'd use today if I had to do it again), so I had lots of room for wired buses.  One that proved unexpectedly invaluable was the string of one-wire temperature sensors that I had.  I ran a couple to the basement, wired to the water in and out pipes on the boiler to monitor the heat there -- I put one on the wall near the main thermostat -- the rest I just stuck in various rooms where convenient as I tacked up the wire running from the thermostat wall to the garage door, then out to the basement stairs, and in (yes, ancient old house -- the basement stairs were outside...).  Turns out that a massive temperature anomoly being reported actually was telling us that a window had been broken (tree limb after a huge fall storm).  I was unable to instrument the heating oil tank (you should be able to get options for that on your propane tanks, though) -- but over the 5 years, I was able to easily predict the oil level by collecting the run-times for the boiler from the thermostat and boiler instrumentation.

c) Cameras.  Not for thieves -- we left worst of those behind in Chicago!  Rather, just so we could observe the house remotely -- snow load on the roofs after a storm was one concern.  Generally, though, it helped me prepare for a visit -- does it look like I can get into the driveway, or should I expect to park on the street and shovel for a couple hours (after driving for the better part of a day - yay, what fun!).

Note what's absent -- no controls.  I deliberately avoided that temptation -- there was quite enough to go wrong without me adding gadgetry that might fail and add to the problems.  I actually removed the set-back thermostat in the house, and replaced it with an ancient mechanical Honeywell thermostat -- reliability.  It might have been nice to arrive to a warm house, but we preferred to live with  a bit of a chill for a few hours rather than risk something going wrong with an electronic thingummy and having the house freeze.  (Power was unreliable - and glitches were common -- I'd already observed that I generally had to reboot the cable box every time we arrived after a summer storm, so I wanted as little computing equipment running as possible - and what I did use, was on a UPS.)

Oh -- one big concern was water - the plumbing was prehistoric... I started by turning off the well pump when I'd leave the place, which worked great in the summer.  In the winter, I worried about a couple of poorly-insulated pipes that had a history of freezing, so I started draining the house pipes as well -- that was probably reasonable given the house was a "short term" thing -- but the de-pressurization and re-pressurization of the plumbing proved to cause a lot a headaches (read: leaks in pipes and fittings).  If I had to do it over again, I'd spend the time to insulate those pipes, and settle for just turning off the water pump.  Note that plastic piping (cpvc or pex) won't have such a problem with that...

GREAT experience and advice! Thanks! I think 1-wire may be a big help, especially in the basement and detached garage (can be less pretty). I think I can fish it into a couple of places in the finished areas as well and still keep my wife happy with the appearance. 

The satellite internet is my biggest worry, partly because I have no experience with it, and also because I fear the modem will need to be rebooted as well. I think I may “heartbeat” it, and allow for an outlet that the ISY can turn off then on via program. The blasted PLM remains my worry there, but if push comes to shove and I have the heat worry addressed via a mechanical stat, I could always keep a spare programmed with addresses from the system (i.e., clone it) and have my neighbor swap it out. Then again, completely agree about Insteon and gennies. Anything but inverter and they won’t work. They’re good once power restored, but when gennie on they won’t communicate. Any idea about zwave on gennies?

 

[lilyoyo1]

21 minutes ago, madcodger said:

Thanks for the thought and reply. With respect, I must say that I no longer find either Ecobee or Nest to be reliable for this type of remote application. I actually own four Ecobees (two lites, a 3 and a 4) in two other properties. The 4 froze up on us last week, losing contact with wifi and requiring a reconnection while we were away (talked a person doing work on the building through it). And, their service goes down from time to time at the API level. I was once a fan, and find them fine for a suburban home, but not for this type of application, at least without some backup.

 

I've installed at least 3 dozen ecobees (probably more) without these type of issues. Not saying they can't have problems but if they are having issues like you say, most likely there is something with the setup itself and not the unit itself

 

[madcodger]

1 hour ago, jec6613 said:

I don't think a second ISY would be a wise choice.  Now, a first one, that's a great idea.  A great way for basic monitoring and triggering events, and it's bulletproof reliable compared to the other reasonably priced options.

I'd put the well pump on a 240V load controller, and just kick it off when you leave - that will help with the freezing issues.  The leak sensors are also good, as are remote temperature sensors.  Go with a good thermostat, not Insteon: Honeywell or similar.  Insteon RF will work pretty well on a generator, but once you're on generator you need a minimum load for the sine wave to be stable so powerline will not be reliable when you're away.  I use a couple of 100W incandescent bulbs to soak the load on our home generator during the day, you may need more with such a low draw on generator power.  So leak sensors and door sensors are good, the PLM is fine receiving RF, but the wired in devices you can't count on them working.  Z-Wave for the load controller and leak sensors (and even thermostat) are also great options here.

Now, your backup?  Look up Sensaphone.  It's a full second set of sensors that can auto-dial or otherwise alert when something goes wrong, even if it's your ISY going down.  They're the industry standard in remote monitoring - usually the IMS4000 since we're monitoring server equipment, but any of it is really good for a property like this.  I've never even heard of one going down, and since it's 100% different code and hardware the chances of both going down are almost nonexistent.

Also, if you have a Generac or similar generator, look into running Genmon, which can tie into the ISY via Nodelink.

More great advice and tips - Thanks! Had not heard of Sensaphone but will be googling away.

12 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

[madcodger]

14 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I've installed at least 3 dozen ecobees (probably more) without these type of issues. Not saying they can't have problems but if they are having issues like you say, most likely there is something with the setup itself and not the unit itself

 

Two different buildings, miles apart.. Two different ISPs. Two different HVAC contractors. Very different systems. MOST of the time all is well, admittedly. But this is not a suburban situation. And few people watch their stats as much as I do, as I’ve been thinking about this new property, so maybe I noticed it more easily. But would I put an Ecobee as the sole stat into a house like this (remote)? Nooooooo. Then again, the backup mechanical stat seems to be the most reliable solution.

[larryllix]

1 hour ago, madcodger said:

Thanks Larry, but see reply above. Just had to do a human intervention reset last week. Pass on Ecobee for this application. As for backup, will likely Dual WAN at router (failover/failback) but even cellular at this location is very spotty.

Yes, The ecobee server has gone down a lot for upgrades and probs but... my ecobee 3 and 4 always reconnect to my WiFi.
OTOH My two Venstar ColorTouch T7900 stats have gone down and had to be power cycled over 30 times each in the last 3-4 years, and AFAICT almost every time my router has been reset or had a power blink.  Neither T7900 will heal the WiFi connection with the slightest router hiccough. I have almost worn the contacts out lifting the electronics out of the socket and punching them down again. One has finally  been retired now and replaced with another ecobee. This has transpired over two different AC1900 routers, three different router firmware suppliers, and a dozen different router firmware upgrades as well as two different router locations, one about 12 feet away just above the Venstar stat still in usage as a monitor.

[lilyoyo1]

44 minutes ago, madcodger said:

Two different buildings, miles apart.. Two different ISPs. Two different HVAC contractors. Very different systems. MOST of the time all is well, admittedly. But this is not a suburban situation. And few people watch their stats as much as I do, as I’ve been thinking about this new property, so maybe I noticed it more easily. But would I put an Ecobee as the sole stat into a house like this (remote)? Nooooooo. Then again, the backup mechanical stat seems to be the most reliable solution.

Doesn't matter the distance. All it needs is internet access. I have a client in the middle of BFE VA. that still has access. In the end as long as you can find a solution that's what matters

[larryllix]

1 minute ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Doesn't matter the distance. All it needs is internet access. I have a client in the middle of BFE VA. that still has access. In the end as long as you can find a solution that's what matters

A cheap mechanical stat in parallel as a backup set at a frost prevention, might rest your mind.

[lilyoyo1]

Just now, larryllix said:

A cheap mechanical stat in parallel as a backup set at a frost prevention, might rest your mind.

Probably not. Not saying it can't come in handy. I tend not to overthink things that I normally wouldn't do without automation

[madcodger]

4 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Probably not. Not saying it can't come in handy. I tend not to overthink things that I normally wouldn't do without automation

I think we just have different approaches. The most critical thing here is for the interior (actually the liquid in pipes) to never reach freezing. So a mechanical stat set at around high 30s F, in parallel to the communicating stat, is probably the best failsafe possible when tied to backup power and a lot of fuel. But hey, differences are what make the world interesting and I appreciate all the responses.

[Techman]

14 hours ago, madcodger said:

Thanks. Will take a look.

There's a typo in my suggestion, it should read SMARTPHONE.