Digital Electrical Breakers

[larryllix]

1 hour ago, Teken said:

I believe a reasonable minimum should be set with respect technology as this ensures a even playing field and helps the consumer compare apple 2 apples. How does one define what is a reason I would hope those in their respective field could come up with a standard which the Government / Public could agree on. 

One example in our area was the mandate for a minimum of 90% efficient furnaces in all new homes and no lower models allowed to be sold. This was a perfect example of helping the consumer, world, and industry.

With respect to 13 SEER as being the minimum I am OK with that but if one was to say *Let's push it to 18 SEER* just because?!? One thing I hate about HVAC and the whole SEER rating is that unlike 99% of all other components.

Why these devices don't call out this AC unit consumes 2400 watts per hour??? 

Yes, The SEER game for A/C definitely need to be based on local climate. We could go to 18-24 SEER but forgetting all the energy savings, what about the rest of the forgotten eco-crap? What about the three times the aluminum tubing and fins in the garbage dumps and the much larger quantity of CFC from the Freon they still haven't managed to replace? Yeah I have some Freon/other gas mix too and if it leaks I am advised to make a big hole and let it all escape, to avoid the huge refinery costs of splitting the gases again, so we know what the content left is in my compressor unit.

Everything has an up and a down side. Sales people, and politicians, love to forget the down side.

BTW: You would have to say it as 2400 WattHours (energy quantity)  per hour or just Watts (rate of energy usage).

On that note about "watts". When I was getting quotes to install my latest A/C unit the local tooted expert was consulted and told me I would have to increase my wire size from the standard #12 cu up to some ridiculous #8 cu??? Questioning him about it he was taking the "heat moving Watts" equiv. and dividing it by 240Vac to get some 50++ amperes. A/C and compressors typically ran about 3:1 or better thermal efficiency, but the "owner/top tech" of this big geothermal expert company couldn't figure out basic energy calculations. grrrrrrrrrrr..

I went elsewhere, but I feel so sorry for people that rely of the tech expertise of others too much.

[larryllix]

2 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

That's where we were with solar. After credits and all we were still looking at 40k for the house. Spend 40k to save 100 bucks a month made absolutely no sense. We did go with a high seer unit. With the size of the house and weather here, we felt it would be worth the price to avoid sticker shock on our utility bills every month. 

The one I like best is....."We had the money in the bank so there was no loss of interest on a loan. Interest doesn't count in the calculation"

I was always involved in energy distribution in the metrology aspect so we were always digging into these topics. Many people were ripped off by fast talking sales people.
OTOH: Ontario offered 83.2 cents per kWh for a few years for under 10kW solar input to the grid, if not on your roof. I didn't get in on that one but I think those people are making money. That program got squashed quickly and it brought PV panels down from about $10/Watt to under $1/watt. Batteries were not allowed on that incentive, and I wanted some backup (read:"wanted a money drain") in the rural.

[DrLumen]

1 hour ago, Teken said:

So was the jump from 16 -> 18 SEER 5%, 10% more? Also, I believe the max wattage should be listed in the advert. The only time I've seen this is on the actual name plate which doesn't help me when I'm trying to shop around on line! 

IMS, it was in the 20-30% range or about $1k more. That was me buying all the equipment online though and then just having a contractor install it. If I had bought it from a contractor it probably would have been a crazy expensive increase in the $3k range.

But yeah, it is on the nameplate. It shows FLA or Full Load Amps. You take that x 240 volts and that will give you the total watts for the condenser. The heat strips are more definitive as they are actually rated in watts - in my instance the electric heat strips were 10k watts total for the aux and emergency heat strips.

 

PS: Oh yeah, that was another + to changing it as the old one was using R22 and it had a slow leak. The last time it was ~$150 per pound for R22. The new one is R422 and a lot cheaper and more eco friendly.

[Teken]

14 hours ago, DrLumen said:

IMS, it was in the 20-30% range or about $1k more. That was me buying all the equipment online though and then just having a contractor install it. If I had bought it from a contractor it probably would have been a crazy expensive increase in the $3k range.

But yeah, it is on the nameplate. It shows FLA or Full Load Amps. You take that x 240 volts and that will give you the total watts for the condenser. The heat strips are more definitive as they are actually rated in watts - in my instance the electric heat strips were 10k watts total for the aux and emergency heat strips.

 

PS: Oh yeah, that was another + to changing it as the old one was using R22 and it had a slow leak. The last time it was ~$150 per pound for R22. The new one is R422 and a lot cheaper and more eco friendly.

Given you're primarily in a heating region the ROI for that $1K investment won't be very long. I on the other hand am still on the fence as to whether to invest more for a higher SEER rated AC unit.

I just don't know what the dollars and cents are going to be for going from 13 -> 15 SEER! So, when I read about people like you who have literally jumped past the *New Minimum* and was considering 16 than to 18 SEER?!?! The eyes in my head just bug out and sit and wonder what are the savings in dollar and cents?  

[DrLumen]

31 minutes ago, Teken said:

Given you're primarily in a heating region the ROI for that $1K investment won't be very long. I on the other hand am still on the fence as to whether to invest more for a higher SEER rated AC unit.

I just don't know what the dollars and cents are going to be for going from 13 -> 15 SEER! So, when I read about people like you who have literally jumped past the *New Minimum* and was considering 16 than to 18 SEER?!?! The eyes in my head just bug out and sit and wonder what are the savings in dollar and cents?  

Yeah, it is hard to quantify exactly. I was going off something similar to this.

It is a YMMV situation. Since most of ours is cooling and potentially running many hours per day for months, I thought it was worth it. The heat pump doesn't run as much for heating but is still more efficient. all-in-all, it will be about break-even for us over the ~10 year lifetime of the condenser. That is assuming electricity rates stay where they are now though.

[Teken]

11 minutes ago, DrLumen said:

Yeah, it is hard to quantify exactly. I was going off something similar to this.

It is a YMMV situation. Since most of ours is cooling and potentially running many hours per day for months, I thought it was worth it. The heat pump doesn't run as much for heating but is still more efficient. all-in-all, it will be about break-even for us over the ~10 year lifetime of the condenser. That is assuming electricity rates stay where they are now though.

On the surface (assuming) the SEER rating were linear it appeared going from 12 -> 13 was 5% savings. But, when you reference the units rated from 15 -> 16 SEER its only 3%?!? 20- > 21 is only 2% in savings.

So, if the numbers are believable than if I jump from the base 13 SEER to 16 that would be a savings of 12%. Given, we have maybe 2 weeks in the year where it's hotter than balls I'll have to balance the value vs cost this year when I consider pulling the trigger.

NOTE: I only need a single stage AC unit without any fancy heat pump etc. Now, if a dual stage unit can be had for a reasonable price ~ I'm in! 

 

[larryllix]

Looks like the chart is based off a SEER 8 unit. I am not sure Canada ever offered SEERs that low since about 1975 when I got into the game. Canada had the "Energuide" BS since about the 60-70's  so when the manufacturers make these savings claims it really doesn't apply here.
The latest freezer I purchased, uses more energy per annum than my old 1970 unit that was twice the new unit's size. Those rating stickers are purchased by the manufacturers.

[Teken]

4 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Looks like the chart is based off a SEER 8 unit. I am not sure Canada ever offered SEERs that low since about 1975 when I got into the game. Canada had the "Energuide" BS since about the 60-70's  so when the manufacturers make these savings claims it really doesn't apply here.
The latest freezer I purchased, uses more energy per annum than my old 1970 unit that was twice the new unit's size. Those rating stickers are purchased by the manufacturers.

From a practical stand point all I have been doing over the last few years when the opportunity arises is to measure the actual draw with a clamp meter and energy monitoring device. Using the two has given me lots of insight about the actual current / wattage.

As others noted there are lots of variables that need to be taken into account as no two units I monitored / measured had the same production year, refrigerant, SEER, use time, and environmental's.

Probably the only other thing which many don't take into consideration is the noise (dB) output at a given distance. I am literally surrounded by A ~ Y brands and some of the output noise is deafening! 

[Mustang65]

2 minutes ago, Teken said:

On the surface (assuming) the SEER rating were linear it appeared going from 12 -> 13 was 5% savings. But, when you reference the units rated from 15 -> 16 SEER its only 3%?!? 20- > 21 is only 2% in savings.

So, if the numbers are to believable than if I jump from the base 13 SEER to 16 that would be a savings of 12%. Given, we have maybe 2 weeks in the year where it's hotter than balls I'll have to balance the value vs cost this year when I consider pulling the trigger.

NOTE: I only need a single stage AC unit without any fancy heat pump etc. Now, if a dual stage unit can be had for a reasonable price ~ I'm in! 

 

This is not a politically based opinion, but a future direction of the "WORLD" based direction. It is an additional point for discussion. This is a "What if" scenario. If the FUTURE of electrical power generation is redirected to a less fossil fuel production (and it will happen, maybe in 5-10 years) we know that the price of electricity will escalate (based on today's electric producing technology). I am one that enjoys a low cost/kW pricing, but there are changes coming my way in the near future. I toss the ROI around a lot on things that I do, but I do not take the same view as a person in their 30's, 40's and 50's, as I am 71. My ROI will be recovered, hopefully, when the kids will sell the house. So payback, in any case, is not going to happen for me (current technology). When I (or the wife) want to purchase something (major $$$$ purchase or toys), I sit down and buy and sell stocks (I only use one stock symbol, for the last 5 years), and I am in and out in a few hours, until my next thing I need). Buying and selling stocks, only when I want something, puts me in an interesting position as the purchase does not have an affect on my savings bottom line. To us it is "Fun money", and being retired, I never had to shell out any tax dollars in April.

A lot of you are planning things, while keeping in mind, that the average home owner will own around 5 homes in their lifetime, this will also play a big part in your decisions, but should it. So if you decide to move on and purchase another residence, you can include the cost of the higher seer rating into the selling price (plus a few more $$) of the home. There is a buyer for everything, even a house with Home Automation installed. The individual would have to determine what seer value product they want or can support, at that point in time. I look at it from the perspective if I can screw DUKE Electric out of $$$, it is well worth it to me. And the way I make my purchases, it is like someone else going out to get a part time job only to make enough additional money to pay for a Polisy to upgrade from ISY.

Just my thoughts

 

[larryllix]

This is not a politically based opinion, but a future direction of the "WORLD" based direction. It is an additional point for discussion. This is a "What if" scenario. If the FUTURE of electrical power generation is redirected to a less fossil fuel production (and it will happen, maybe in 5-10 years) we know that the price of electricity will escalate (based on today's electric producing technology). I am one that enjoys a low cost/kW pricing, but there are changes coming my way in the near future. I toss the ROI around a lot on things that I do, but I do not take the same view as a person in their 30's, 40's and 50's, as I am 71. My ROI will be recovered, hopefully, when the kids will sell the house. So payback, in any case, is not going to happen for me (current technology). When I (or the wife) want to purchase something (major $$$$ purchase or toys), I sit down and buy and sell stocks (I only use one stock symbol, for the last 5 years), and I am in and out in a few hours, until my next thing I need). Buying and selling stocks, only when I want something, puts me in an interesting position as the purchase does not have an affect on my savings bottom line. To us it is "Fun money", and being retired, I never had to shell out any tax dollars in April.
A lot of you are planning things, while keeping in mind, that the average home owner will own around 5 homes in their lifetime, this will also play a big part in your decisions, but should it. So if you decide to move on and purchase another residence, you can include the cost of the higher seer rating into the selling price (plus a few more $$) of the home. There is a buyer for everything, even a house with Home Automation installed. The individual would have to determine what seer value product they want or can support, at that point in time. I look at it from the perspective if I can screw DUKE Electric out of $$$, it is well worth it to me. And the way I make my purchases, it is like someone else going out to get a part time job only to make enough additional money to pay for a Polisy to upgrade from ISY.
Just my thoughts
 

Much of this is culturally dependant though.

Here, to get the best price for a selling home, the home automation, solar equipment a d possibly even the backyard pool needs to be taken out.

I hear comments about 'too complicated', 'who is going to maintain that?', and 'how much will it cost to take it out', in my travels. I know of several buyers filling in the existing pools over the years. Many see them as just a money and effort pit, while others would never buy a home with an existing pool, but add one to their own backyard after their purchase.

I use the pool example to demonstrate an easy picture based on culture, due to climate. Home automation and solar equipment attitudes are less obvious.

I won't purchase a home with a drywalled ceiling in the basement. Ripping it out for maintenance, and finding surprises is not something I want to match others experiences.

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[Mustang65]

3 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Much of this is culturally dependant though.

Here, to get the best price for a selling home, the home automation, solar equipment a d possibly even the backyard pool needs to be taken out.

I hear comments about 'too complicated', 'who is going to maintain that?', and 'how much will it cost to take it out', in my travels. I know of several buyers filling in the existing pools over the years. Many see them as just a money and effort pit, while others would never buy a home with an existing pool, but add one to their own backyard after their purchase.

I use the pool example to demonstrate an easy picture based on culture, due to climate. Home automation and solar equipment attitudes are less obvious.

I won't purchase a home with a drywalled ceiling in the basement. Ripping it out for maintenance, and finding surprises is not something I want to match others experiences.

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I agree with the drywall ceiling as all my homes that I built or purchased I installed pop-out ceiling squares. A life saver in a few occasions. Pools, even down here in Florida less than 1% of the homes have a hole in the ground (pool), so that is not much of an issue. SOLAR down here is just getting going so I have yet to see any numbers on not getting their initial investment back. Home Automation could and probably would be an issue as most people do not want to have anything to do with them other than a Alexa activated Hue light bulb. Mention an install, or upgrades "Game Over"!

The general consensus down here is that they are sick of Duke energy. In the last few years I have seen many new SOLAR installs in the neighborhood, but what needs to be taken into consideration is that only 3 homes on my block have the right environment for adding SOLAR. 50 and 75' Oak Trees are ALL up and down the streets, on every lot and in their back yards. That is pretty much the way it is in this city.

[Teken]

25 minutes ago, Mustang65 said:

This is not a politically based opinion, but a future direction of the "WORLD" based direction. It is an additional point for discussion. This is a "What if" scenario. If the FUTURE of electrical power generation is redirected to a less fossil fuel production (and it will happen, maybe in 5-10 years) we know that the price of electricity will escalate (based on today's electric producing technology). I am one that enjoys a low cost/kW pricing, but there are changes coming my way in the near future. I toss the ROI around a lot on things that I do, but I do not take the same view as a person in their 30's, 40's and 50's, as I am 71. My ROI will be recovered, hopefully, when the kids will sell the house. So payback, in any case, is not going to happen for me (current technology). When I (or the wife) want to purchase something (major $$$$ purchase or toys), I sit down and buy and sell stocks (I only use one stock symbol, for the last 5 years), and I am in and out in a few hours, until my next thing I need). Buying and selling stocks, only when I want something, puts me in an interesting position as the purchase does not have an affect on my savings bottom line. To us it is "Fun money", and being retired, I never had to shell out any tax dollars in April.

A lot of you are planning things, while keeping in mind, that the average home owner will own around 5 homes in their lifetime, this will also play a big part in your decisions, but should it. So if you decide to move on and purchase another residence, you can include the cost of the higher seer rating into the selling price (plus a few more $$) of the home. There is a buyer for everything, even a house with Home Automation installed. The individual would have to determine what seer value product they want or can support, at that point in time. I look at it from the perspective if I can screw DUKE Electric out of $$$, it is well worth it to me. And the way I make my purchases, it is like someone else going out to get a part time job only to make enough additional money to pay for a Polisy to upgrade from ISY.

Just my thoughts

 

And this is one of the major drivers for me with respect to ongoing increases in electricity. Question really comes to (deciding) to take it on the chin up front for a higher SEER rated unit. Or balance out the savings by purchasing the lower SEER rated unit.

If I shake the magic eight ball and just say I will use this unit for four weeks ~ does it pencil out with a lower SEER? I'll just make up some fictional number as an example so it will be easier to illustrate my thought process and see what the forum members think.

SEER 13: $2500.00 Unit Cost, 31 Days Used -> 8 HRS X 0.08527 KWH = $0.68216 per day X 31 = $21.14696 Month

Based on the chart offered above the jump from 13 to 16 should save 12% in costs ~ if so:

SEER 16: $4500.00 Unit Cost, 31 days Used -> $21.14696 X 12% Savings = $2.5379 over the 13 SEER unit which comes out (rough pencil math) $18.60906 per month. The difference in initial purchase cost is $2000.00. 

Does it make sense to purchase a 16 SEER unit?? Let's also assume the unit will not require any maintenance and operates for at least ten years ~ possible?!?   

 

[DrLumen]

21 minutes ago, Mustang65 said:

I agree with the drywall ceiling as all my homes that I built or purchased I installed pop-out ceiling squares. A life saver in a few occasions. Pools, even down here in Florida less than 1% of the homes have a hole in the ground (pool), so that is not much of an issue. SOLAR down here is just getting going so I have yet to see any numbers on not getting their initial investment back. Home Automation could and probably would be an issue as most people do not want to have anything to do with them other than a Alexa activated Hue light bulb. Mention an install, or upgrades "Game Over"!

The general consensus down here is that they are sick of Duke energy. In the last few years I have seen many new SOLAR installs in the neighborhood, but what needs to be taken into consideration is that only 3 homes on my block have the right environment for adding SOLAR. 50 and 75' Oak Trees are ALL up and down the streets, on every lot and in their back yards. That is pretty much the way it is in this city.

Solar can be problematic. I had an ugly pecan tree removed before I had solar panels installed. It was not critical to be removed as it would only affect some panels in the morning but I didn't like it anyway. By the same token, from an eco perspective, the inverter maker says I have planted the equivalent of 1130 trees to date - fwiw. I really had the perfect situation though as the longest part of the house runs east/west with a due south exposure with no (-1) trees.

As to resale, I really don't plan on selling anytime soon. But, from what I have been told by realtors is that having solar can go either way. Some may love the idea, some may think it is an eyesore. Personally, I think months with no electric bill or even a few dollars back is a good selling point.

As to the Energy Guide/Energy Star stuff, depending on what it is and your UC, you can get credits back for a percentage of the costs. Here they are pushing insulation and weatherstripping and will credit 15% of the costs but with lot of red tape as well.

[DrLumen]

22 minutes ago, Teken said:

And this is one of the major drivers for me with respect to ongoing increases in electricity. Question really comes to (deciding) to take it on the chin up front for a higher SEER rated unit. Or balance out the savings by purchasing the lower SEER rated unit.

If I shake the magic eight ball and just say I will use this unit for four weeks ~ does it pencil out with a lower SEER? I'll just make up some fictional number as an example so it will be easier to illustrate my thought process and see what the forum members think.

SEER 13: $2500.00 Unit Cost, 31 Days Used -> 8 HRS X 0.08527 KWH = $0.68216 per day X 31 = $21.14696 Month

Based on the chart offered above the jump from 13 to 16 should save 12% in costs ~ if so:

SEER 16: $4500.00 Unit Cost, 31 days Used -> $21.14696 X 12% Savings = $2.5379 over the 13 SEER unit which comes out (rough pencil math) $18.60906 per month. The difference in initial purchase cost is $2000.00. 

Does it make sense to purchase a 16 SEER unit?? Let's also assume the unit will not require any maintenance and operates for at least ten years ~ possible?!?  

Given your math, the cost difference would be recouped in ~9 years. As to life span of the unit, the compressors are the costliest part. Almost all come with a 5 yr warranty. I used to do maintenance in apartments and 10 - 15 years was about the average. Depends on luck. Some may die after 7. Some may last 20... As to maintenance, fans can go out or the start capacitors go bad but those are relatively cheap at $20 - $100 for the part. However, if you have to get an AC person out for those repairs you can easily triple that cost.

[Teken]

11 minutes ago, DrLumen said:

Given your math, the cost difference would be recouped in ~9 years. As to life span of the unit, the compressors are the costliest part. Almost all come with a 5 yr warranty. I used to do maintenance in apartments and 10 - 15 years was about the average. Depends on luck. Some may die after 7. Some may last 20... As to maintenance, fans can go out or the start capacitors go bad but those are relatively cheap at $20 - $100 for the part. However, if you have to get an AC person out for those repairs you can easily triple that cost.

I normally don't fall for the whole extended warranty thing but given what you and many others have said in the past. This is something I would more than likely pay extra for to get the most out of that huge outlay. I'll probably wait and see what Costco has to offer and the rebate / member reward is. I figure might as well double / triple dip and get some extra's a long the way.

[DrLumen]

6 minutes ago, Teken said:

I normally don't fall for the whole extended warranty thing but given what you and many others have said in the past. This is something I would more than likely pay extra for to get the most out of that huge outlay. I'll probably wait and see what Costco has to offer and the rebate / member reward is. I figure might as well double / triple dip and get some extra's a long the way.

You might look into Trane. They are farily expensive but they typically have long warranties (like 20 years) and then you can buy additional from them. I just use them as an example but be prepared for some sticker shock.

https://www.trane.com/residential/en/for-owners/warranty-and-registration/

I'm an optimist so I just bought a goodman (~cheap) and keeping my fingers crossed. Plus, it won't be a complete disaster if it only last 8 or 10 years. I'll just have to replace the condenser.

[larryllix]

And this is one of the major drivers for me with respect to ongoing increases in electricity. Question really comes to (deciding) to take it on the chin up front for a higher SEER rated unit. Or balance out the savings by purchasing the lower SEER rated unit.
If I shake the magic eight ball and just say I will use this unit for four weeks ~ does it pencil out with a lower SEER? I'll just make up some fictional number as an example so it will be easier to illustrate my thought process and see what the forum members think.
SEER 13: $2500.00 Unit Cost, 31 Days Used -> 8 HRS X 0.08527 KWH = $0.68216 per day X 31 = $21.14696 Month
Based on the chart offered above the jump from 13 to 16 should save 12% in costs ~ if so:
SEER 16: $4500.00 Unit Cost, 31 days Used -> $21.14696 X 12% Savings = $2.5379 over the 13 SEER unit which comes out (rough pencil math) $18.60906 per month. The difference in initial purchase cost is $2000.00. 
Does it make sense to purchase a 16 SEER unit?? Let's also assume the unit will not require any maintenance and operates for at least ten years ~ possible?!?   
 

12% is a factor based on a SEEr 8 unit.


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[Teken]

2 minutes ago, larryllix said:

12% is a factor based on a SEEr 8 unit.


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I just use the chart from DrLumen from 13 -> 16 and the numbers can be believed the difference is 12%. Can't say if that reflects reality given so many variables but for the purpose of this discussion those are the soft numbers.

[DrLumen]

That chart is from Trane. Just picked it as it was the first one in google. The backing data very likely comes from Energy Star (US Govt).

[Teken]

8 minutes ago, DrLumen said:

You might look into Trane. They are farily expensive but they typically have long warranties (like 20 years) and then you can buy additional from them. I just use them as an example but be prepared for some sticker shock.

https://www.trane.com/residential/en/for-owners/warranty-and-registration/

I must be blind so anyone find out what the warranty is for this unit: https://www.trane.com/residential/en/products/air-conditioners/xr14-air-conditioner/  If one follows the warranty link it goes no where besides calling out other things not related to the warranty of the 16 SEER AC unit??

[Mustang65]

44 minutes ago, DrLumen said:

Solar can be problematic. I had an ugly pecan tree removed before I had solar panels installed. It was not critical to be removed as it would only affect some panels in the morning but I didn't like it anyway. By the same token, from an eco perspective, the inverter maker says I have planted the equivalent of 1130 trees to date - fwiw. I really had the perfect situation though as the longest part of the house runs east/west with a due south exposure with no (-1) trees.

As to resale, I really don't plan on selling anytime soon. But, from what I have been told by realtors is that having solar can go either way. Some may love the idea, some may think it is an eyesore. Personally, I think months with no electric bill or even a few dollars back is a good selling point.

As to the Energy Guide/Energy Star stuff, depending on what it is and your UC, you can get credits back for a percentage of the costs. Here they are pushing insulation and weatherstripping and will credit 15% of the costs but with lot of red tape as well.

You can at least cut down a tree. Where I live, the city horticulturist needs to assess the reason for the removal of ANY tree. SOLAR is not one of them. It took me 14 months to convince him that I needed to have a 30' Oak Tree removed from my property as it posed a VERY possible risk. The tree some where in its life was struck by lightning as it had the high voltage scar down the side of it. He agreed that it was hit by lightning. I had to have one of the 12" shoots removed as it was dying. That is when I noticed a 6" hole going into the tree that had carpenter ants living in it.

I  invited him out again and dumped a 5 gallon bucket of water in the hole and it did not over flow from the opening and at least a thousand ants came climbing out. He said let me go back to the office and discuss it with the boss. I said you can take this letter addressed to you and I have a copy for my home owners insurance company describing the situation along with this picture. He read the letter and looked at the picture, turned around looked at me and said "OK, you can cut the tree down, but you need to replace it with a tree that has at least a 2" in diameter trunk or you will be fined". I said thank you and that was the last I saw of him. I did plant the tree, out of the range of direct sunlight.

 

[larryllix]

35 minutes ago, Teken said:

I just use the chart from DrLumen from 13 -> 16 and the numbers can be believed the difference is 12%. Can't say if that reflects reality given so many variables but for the purpose of this discussion those are the soft numbers.

The chart is based on a SEER 8 unit. All the calculations are totally theoretical so that a SEER 16 unit uses only 50% of the energy for the same cooling. Thus the chart shows 50% savings.
Likewise a SEER 13 unit uses only 8/13 of the energy or 61.5% of the energy of a SEER 8 unit. The chart shows this as a savings of 100% - 61.5% or ~38%.

12% is the difference based on the fictitious SEER 8 unit you would upgrade from. Not the right base figures.

The difference (theoretically) between the SEER 16 and SEER 13 unit would be 61.5% (SEER 13 energy) / 50% (SEER 16 energy)  - 100%  =  23% saved of the SEER 13 unit (not the SEER 8 unit) energy used.

Make more sense?

[Teken]

58 minutes ago, larryllix said:

The chart is based on a SEER 8 unit. All the calculations are totally theoretical so that a SEER 16 unit uses only 50% of the energy for the same cooling. Thus the chart shows 50% savings.
Likewise a SEER 13 unit uses only 8/13 of the energy or 61.5% of the energy of a SEER 8 unit. The chart shows this as a savings of 100% - 61.5% or ~38%.

12% is the difference based on the fictitious SEER 8 unit you would upgrade from. Not the right base figures.

The difference (theoretically) between the SEER 16 and SEER 13 unit would be 61.5% (SEER 13 energy) / 50% (SEER 16 energy)  - 100%  =  23% saved of the SEER 13 unit (not the SEER 8 unit) energy used.

Make more sense?

LOL - No!

I really wish people could just walk into a store and turn a unit on and watch how much noise and energy these units make / consume. Walk around look, touch, and inspect the internals of the unit like a car.

Everyday people take cars, boats, bikes, out for a ride and see & hear how it performs. The best I can do is either read a online advert, You Tube, or walk around the neighborhood like some crazy stalker . . .  

[lilyoyo1]

3 hours ago, Mustang65 said:

This is not a politically based opinion, but a future direction of the "WORLD" based direction. It is an additional point for discussion. This is a "What if" scenario. If the FUTURE of electrical power generation is redirected to a less fossil fuel production (and it will happen, maybe in 5-10 years) we know that the price of electricity will escalate (based on today's electric producing technology). I am one that enjoys a low cost/kW pricing, but there are changes coming my way in the near future. I toss the ROI around a lot on things that I do, but I do not take the same view as a person in their 30's, 40's and 50's, as I am 71. My ROI will be recovered, hopefully, when the kids will sell the house. So payback, in any case, is not going to happen for me (current technology). When I (or the wife) want to purchase something (major $$$$ purchase or toys), I sit down and buy and sell stocks (I only use one stock symbol, for the last 5 years), and I am in and out in a few hours, until my next thing I need). Buying and selling stocks, only when I want something, puts me in an interesting position as the purchase does not have an affect on my savings bottom line. To us it is "Fun money", and being retired, I never had to shell out any tax dollars in April.

A lot of you are planning things, while keeping in mind, that the average home owner will own around 5 homes in their lifetime, this will also play a big part in your decisions, but should it. So if you decide to move on and purchase another residence, you can include the cost of the higher seer rating into the selling price (plus a few more $$) of the home. There is a buyer for everything, even a house with Home Automation installed. The individual would have to determine what seer value product they want or can support, at that point in time. I look at it from the perspective if I can screw DUKE Electric out of $$$, it is well worth it to me. And the way I make my purchases, it is like someone else going out to get a part time job only to make enough additional money to pay for a Polisy to upgrade from ISY.

Just my thoughts

 

Regardless of where energy prices are in the future, buying today is still a losing proposition if one hopes to be "ready" or leave something for the future. Using HVAC for example, standards will change. More efficient units will come to market. Even if prices do jump in 10 years, the brand new unit a person has today will be considered inefficient at that point in time. The extra money spent that you think you could recover most likely wouldn't happen. 

As with anything, the value of what someone is willing to pay comes down to how much they want a particular thing. When it comes to home buying, most people don't look at things such as seer rating. Yes it is a selling point that may make someone happy to have, but it's not something where they will generally pay extra for it. 

 

[Mustang65]

4 minutes ago, Teken said:

LOL - No!

I really wish people could just walk into a store and turn a unit on and watch how much noise and energy these units make / consume. Walk around look, touch, and inspect the internals of the unit like a car.

Everyday people take cars, boats, bikes, out for a ride and see & hear how it performs. The best I can do is either read a online advert, You Tube, or walk around the neighborhood like some crazy stalker . . .  

Teken,

You know there is a noise issue when the AC mfr. as a gift, gives you a set of Bose QuietComfort 35 II Wireless Bluetooth Headphones, Noise-Cancelling, for each family member.