Digital Electrical Breakers

[Teken]

7 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Regardless of where energy prices are in the future, buying today is still a losing proposition if one hopes to be "ready" or leave something for the future. Using HVAC for example, standards will change. More efficient units will come to market. Even if prices do jump in 10 years, the brand new unit a person has today will be considered inefficient at that point in time. The extra money spent that you think you could recover most likely wouldn't happen. 

As with anything, the value of what someone is willing to pay comes down to how much they want a particular thing. When it comes to home buying, most people don't look at things such as seer rating. Yes it is a selling point that may make someone happy to have, but it's not something where they will generally pay extra for it. 

 

Agreed, the majority of people are looking at square footage, number of rooms, one vs two story, 1-2-3 full baths, fixtures, etc. I know 100% only a few people are going to even know or care my house was built using purpose built Ufer grounding and 4 gauge cable. 

Never mind extra's to fortify the bones of the house like Tyvek vs Paper, Tar vs Delta Wrap, Piles that go down to China . . .  

[Teken]

2 minutes ago, Mustang65 said:

Teken,

You know there is a noise issue when the AC mfr. as a gift, gives you a set of Bose QuietComfort 35 II Wireless Bluetooth Headphones, Noise-Cancelling, for each family member.

[larryllix]

23 minutes ago, Teken said:

LOL - No!

I really wish people could just walk into a store and turn a unit on and watch how much noise and energy these units make / consume. Walk around look, touch, and inspect the internals of the unit like a car.

Everyday people take cars, boats, bikes, out for a ride and see & hear how it performs. The best I can do is either read a online advert, You Tube, or walk around the neighborhood like some crazy stalker . . .  

Well, ten years ago I got sold on a new rotary style compressor. I forget the name of it. Yes, it runs fairly quietly, except for one thing...when it stops the out of centre weight factor shakes the whole case so bad it shakes the dishes in the cupboard mounted on the other side of the wall in my kitchen. BTW: I poured a separate pad outside of my home where it stands on the ground with NO contact to the wall. The tubing is too stiff and short between the compressor and the passthrough.

Yup, the installers came out and despite a ten years warranty for parts (Bryant) and labour (local installer Gas Plus), I was called a "PITA" and things like "You modified the wiring" (I changed the thermostat) suddenly made my warranty null and void. They did install a weighted sleeve on the compressor tubing and it stopped the continuous wall shaking in the house and refused to entertain any further replacement. Ten years later it still shakes when stopping but performs just fine.

[lilyoyo1]

14 minutes ago, Teken said:

Agreed, the majority of people are looking at square footage, number of rooms, one vs two story, 1-2-3 full baths, fixtures, etc. I know 100% only a few people are going to even know or care my house was built using purpose built Ufer grounding and 4 gauge cable. 

Never mind extra's to fortify the bones of the house like Tyvek vs Paper, Tar vs Delta Wrap, Piles that go down to China . . .  

Very true. Everyone wants the WOW factor. The rest (for the most part) is irrelevant. The only comment we had when our house was on the market that can be attributed to what we did for efficiency was how quiet the inside was. 

[Teken]

Back On Topic: Welps, it looks like unless the Atom Power Company decides to offer more service panels for the consumer market this is a no go:

https://b810e126-c523-434e-8b34-e8980f737107.filesusr.com/ugd/1baea3_834d1a1525a64014921cc554d1b61944.pdf

Unless your home is extremely small 14 slots isn't going to cut it. The variable breaker concept I really like as it can be adjusted from 15 - 100 amps along with other motor control. The e-ink display is very slick and others should follow suite which allows any breaker to be relabeled upon change out. Also allows the customer to re-designate the amperage on the fly should that ever be needed for that branch circuit.

https://b810e126-c523-434e-8b34-e8980f737107.filesusr.com/ugd/1baea3_29cae663e49c487599bb8863338e664e.pdf

I also like the energy monitoring aspect too and the virtual relay capability.

No where does the technical specs call out how these devices handle inrush surge / lightning scenarios. Nor do they even try to address the energy consumption of the breakers?!? I guess when you're a huge factory eating gigawatts of power what is 400 watts of energy consumption per hour???   

[DrLumen]

Yeah, those look more like automation controllers than something for residences. Solid state motor starters comes to mind.

[Mustang65]

Now back to my original plan, which is about to get started as there is an issue with my main service panel. The Main Breaker assembly is cocked and getting worse and does not sit flush against the back of the Service panel. i would hate to see it break loose and cause some nasty shorts. So now is the time. No reason why the following would not be an alternative to the above mentioned Digital Electrical breakers. Granted most of us use UPS on our key investments, but this would actually be an added feature.

Schneider Electric makes a Power Link circuit breaker which has remote capabilities and the price is a lot less than the above. Based on what I now have, which are regular breakers with whole house surge protection and what I could have with the Power Link breakers, to me it is a no-brain-er. These breakers allow for remote control. So, why not install these breakers, add a computer interface and hook my BrulTech GEM Energy Management tool to the equation along with the ISY for text alerts and other things.

A voltage monitor on each main service line coming into the panel to determine if I lost my main electrical service or a brown-out. Lets say that there is a power outage, no matter how brief, the system would disconnect all the breakers that you want disconnected and when the power is restored for a determined amount of time, you have a sequence that your breakers are reconnected. You would probably not want to restart your HVAC for at least 5 minutes. A scenario,  which is common to our household, not that I like it, is that the wife is cooking dinner (electric stove), the clothes washer is running (warm water), the hot water heater is heating the water in the tank for the washer, the fridge is running and the clothes dryer may also be running. If the power has been out for awhile and comes back on, well everything wants to restart at the same time. All except the computerized dryer, that wants to be manually restarted.

Why not create a priority restart list in a program and restart the Electric range first, followed by the hot water heater, then the HVAC and so on. Since the bulk of the program will be monitoring sensors, the level of programming is not that great. A lot of if/then/else. My Arduino that controls 16 relays probably will have more code running it.

When something is starting to malfunction usually there may be an increase in the current demand or the current drops off, for that item. Maybe the HVAC is all of a sudden using a lot more current to get it started, which may be the result of the quick start capacitor going bad. You could also put a DS18B20 temperature sensor on each breaker and compare it to a table of average temperatures for that breaker.The list goes on, but what will my most frequently used reason. Well when we travel I always turn off the city water and all the breakers that are not needed (media center, dryer, washer, dishwasher, hot water heater, office, outside outlets in front of the house (kids). I walk out to the service panel, unlock it and start tripping the breakers one by one and reverse the process when we get back. It would be so much easier to just flip a app/switch in the house to trigger the software. Maybe I am just getting lazy.

Search Amazon they have them all

Double Pole:

Schneider Electric QO260PLILC QO ILC PowerLink Circuit Breaker 2-Pole, 120/240Vac, 60-Amp 10 kA AIR
Schneider Electric QO250PLILC QO ILC PowerLink Circuit Breaker 2-Pole, 120/240Vac, 50-Amp 10 kA AIR
Schneider Electric QO240PLILC QO ILC PowerLink Circuit Breaker 2-Pole, 120/240Vac, 40-Amp 10 kA AIR  
Schneider Electric QO230PLILC QO ILC PowerLink Circuit Breaker 2-Pole, 120/240Vac, 30-Amp, 10 kA AIR

Single Pole:

Schneider Electric QO120PLILC QO ILC PowerLink Circuit Breaker 1-Pole, 120/240Vac, 20-Amp 10 kA AIR
Schneider Electric QO115PLILC QO ILC PowerLink Circuit Breaker 1-Pole, 120/240Vac, 15-Amp 10 kA AIR

 

 

 

 

[Teken]

Now back to my original plan, which is about to get started as there is an issue with my main service panel. The Main Breaker assembly is cocked and getting worse and does not sit flush against the back of the Service panel. i would hate to see it break loose and cause some nasty shorts. So now is the time. No reason why the following would not be an alternative to the above mentioned Digital Electrical breakers. Granted most of us use UPS on our key investments, but this would actually be an added feature.
Schneider Electric makes a Power Link circuit breaker which has remote capabilities and the price is a lot less than the above. Based on what I now have, which are regular breakers with whole house surge protection and what I could have with the Power Link breakers, to me it is a no-brain-er. These breakers allow for remote control. So, why not install these breakers, add a computer interface and hook my BrulTech GEM Energy Management tool to the equation along with the ISY for text alerts and other things.
A voltage monitor on each main service line coming into the panel to determine if I lost my main electrical service or a brown-out. Lets say that there is a power outage, no matter how brief, the system would disconnect all the breakers that you want disconnected and when the power is restored for a determined amount of time, you have a sequence that your breakers are reconnected. You would probably not want to restart your HVAC for at least 5 minutes. A scenario,  which is common to our household, not that I like it, is that the wife is cooking dinner (electric stove), the clothes washer is running (warm water), the hot water heater is heating the water in the tank for the washer, the fridge is running and the clothes dryer may also be running. If the power has been out for awhile and comes back on, well everything wants to restart at the same time. All except the computerized dryer, that wants to be manually restarted.
Why not create a priority restart list in a program and restart the Electric range first, followed by the hot water heater, then the HVAC and so on. Since the bulk of the program will be monitoring sensors, the level of programming is not that great. A lot of if/then/else. My Arduino that controls 16 relays probably will have more code running it.
When something is starting to malfunction usually there may be an increase in the current demand or the current drops off, for that item. Maybe the HVAC is all of a sudden using a lot more current to get it started, which may be the result of the quick start capacitor going bad. You could also put a DS18B20 temperature sensor on each breaker and compare it to a table of average temperatures for that breaker.The list goes on, but what will my most frequently used reason. Well when we travel I always turn off the city water and all the breakers that are not needed (media center, dryer, washer, dishwasher, hot water heater, office, outside outlets in front of the house (kids). I walk out to the service panel, unlock it and start tripping the breakers one by one and reverse the process when we get back. It would be so much easier to just flip a app/switch in the house to trigger the software. Maybe I am just getting lazy.
Search Amazon they have them all
Double Pole:
Schneider Electric QO260PLILC QO ILC PowerLink Circuit Breaker 2-Pole, 120/240Vac, 60-Amp 10 kA AIR
Schneider Electric QO250PLILC QO ILC PowerLink Circuit Breaker 2-Pole, 120/240Vac, 50-Amp 10 kA AIR
Schneider Electric QO240PLILC QO ILC PowerLink Circuit Breaker 2-Pole, 120/240Vac, 40-Amp 10 kA AIR  
Schneider Electric QO230PLILC QO ILC PowerLink Circuit Breaker 2-Pole, 120/240Vac, 30-Amp, 10 kA AIR
Single Pole:
Schneider Electric QO120PLILC QO ILC PowerLink Circuit Breaker 1-Pole, 120/240Vac, 20-Amp 10 kA AIR
Schneider Electric QO115PLILC QO ILC PowerLink Circuit Breaker 1-Pole, 120/240Vac, 15-Amp 10 kA AIR
 
 
 
 

I haven’t had the chance to check your link but do these breakers turn on - off. I ask because some of the systems had that gotcha which was they only turned off!

Not interested in just turning off as my primary focus is infrastructure protection, energy management & security.

Lightning storm coming my way??

No problem - just turn the breaker off and there is a limited possibility of damage due to injection.

POCO says you have been switched to ToU and will get penalized for peak usage?!? No problem large appliances like HVAC / HWT will be placed on standby / scheduled to on after the peak time!

Power went out and you don’t want to blow anything from a hard start?!? No problem breakers will be staged / load shedding will be timed, controlled, and managed in a graceful manner.

When you get further along please do document your success / failures so others like I can learn.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mustang65]

I decided it was time to take this project to the next level so I ordered a 15Amp Remotely Operated Circuit Breaker from Square D. Sorry Teken, this probably will not be allowed in Canada. I connected the Circuit Breakers Pigtail (Red +24VDC, White = Common, Black Negative). The way that the Circuit Breaker operates is that the common is connected to either the +24 volts or to Negative leads, which activates the ON/OFF. I found a dual-relay and pulled out the Arduino. Wired it up and put together a basic script to see if it works. I did not use the 110VAC supply to show the breakers status, but I wired a LED through the AC terminals of the breaker to display the breaker's status. I also did a short video on YouTube to at least show you how it works. For the actual setup, I would run the relays off its own power supply and not the Arduino.

YouTube Video

[Teken]

I decided it was time to take this project to the next level so I ordered a 15Amp Remotely Operated Circuit Breaker from Square D. Sorry Teken, this probably will not be allowed in Canada. I connected the Circuit Breakers Pigtail (Red +24VDC, White = Common, Black Negative). The way that the Circuit Breaker operates is that the common is connected to either the +24 volts or to Negative leads, which activates the ON/OFF. I found a dual-relay and pulled out the Arduino. Wired it up and put together a basic script to see if it works. I did not use the 110VAC supply to show the breakers status, but I wired a LED through the AC terminals of the breaker to display the breaker's status. I also did a short video on YouTube to at least show you how it works. For the actual setup, I would run the relays off its own power supply and not the Arduino.
YouTube Video

I can hear the breaker opening & closing in the video. But does the physical switch move up and down when it activates the breaker?!? Or is this all working internally?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mustang65]

internally only, but does have manual over-ride

 

[larryllix]

Does the breaker have a local lockout feature?

Sent using Tapatalk

[Mustang65]

1 hour ago, larryllix said:

Does the breaker have a local lockout feature?
 

Lockout as in eliminate the remote control circuit for controlling the breaker. That would be no. There would have to be some safety steps added to the code or maybe an inside the house switch to activate code to deactivate the breaker code. Is that what you are asking?

[larryllix]

Lockout as in eliminate the remote control circuit for controlling the breaker. That would be no. There would have to be some safety steps added to the code or maybe an inside the house switch to activate code to deactivate the breaker code. Is that what you are asking?

Basically, but rules won't do it for safety codes. There needs to be a physical lockout mechanism to comply. Possibly the usual locking mechanism used for mechanical breakers would do, as long as the handle can override the electrical controls.

Sent using Tapatalk

[Mustang65]

I just tested the breaker. In order for the remote control to be activated the breaker has to be in the "ON" position. If you flip the breaker to the "OFF" position the remote control is deactivated.

[Mustang65]

I am also wondering if there is a need for all 30 breakers to be Remote Controlled. I can see the HVAC, Electric stove, Clothes Dryer, Clothe Washer and fridge, dishwasher, media center, security equipment and the office (all have internal electronics). But the bedroom circuits, lights... which are in the majority do not really have to have this feature. Maybe a sub-panel with 10 remote control circuits would do the trick, also a lot less expensive. Still thinking about it.

[larryllix]

I just tested the breaker. In order for the remote control to be activated the breaker has to be in the "ON" position. If you flip the breaker to the "OFF" position the remote control is deactivated.

Does that mean there no remote on control?

Sent using Tapatalk

[Mustang65]

Just now, larryllix said:

Does that mean there no remote on control?
 

When the breaker is in the off position, the Arduino is still supplying the voltages to the breaker, but the breaker is ignoring them. Is that what you are asking?

[larryllix]

When the breaker is in the off position, the Arduino is still supplying the voltages to the breaker, but the breaker is ignoring them. Is that what you are asking?

Not exactly.
There must be some combination of events that allows the breaker to be electrically closed

Or

The breaker can never be closed electrically.


Sent using Tapatalk

[Teken]

4 hours ago, Mustang65 said:

internally only, but does have manual over-ride

 

I think I understand what you mean about it not being allowed in Canada. So based on your reply this breaker can be manually operated to turn on and off like any other standard breaker. When you connect the 24 VDC trigger wire it allows you to internally activate the breaker from on-off. But, the actual physical outside toggle switch remains in the ON position. If the phyiscal toggle is in the off position than the remote 24 VDC trigger can not activate the same ~ correct?

[Mustang65]

Correct