Alexa and ISY Troubleshooting Questions

[ulrick65]

I have been using Alexa with ISY for a long time and really very few issues...responds well, etc.

We had some power issues here this past week and decided that I needed to get my ISY on the UPS with the rest of my Network gear, servers, etc. Up to this point, it has been stationed next to the power panel as that is the best spot in the house I found for it way back when I set it up...I get good signal to all my devices (using a wired in phase bridge in the panel).  I have a LOT of older devices that are not dual band.

So basically after reading on here that others extended the serial cable to 30' plus, I decided to try it myself.  I basically, took isy and moved it near my network switch  and took the old network cable (it is a 50' - CAT6 purchased cable, not one I made) and plugged that into the PLM and then into ISY's Port, then a short network cable into ISY and into the same port on the switch it has always been in.  Everything worked great, no issues.  I have seen zero problems from the admin console, controlling devices, etc. (at least all that I tried).

However, I have started to see issues from Alexa now.  She complains "<device> is not responding".  Sometimes I can do it 3 times and nothing...walk into the other room and ask the other Echo and it works first time.  Sometimes, it will give me the error, I turn it off from the admin console and then ask Alexa to turn the same device on and it works first try.  Just odd stuff like that...not all the time, but more in the past week then it has in the past year...so I am wondering if that long table is causing a problem?

My questions:

1.  Do you think the cable would be the issue?  I am not sure how the discussion goes between Alexa and ISY (hence my next question) but I would think as long as alexa can talk to the ISY, it doesn't care what happens at the PLM?

2.  How the discussion go between the two?  I assume something like this:  Alexa talks to Amazon, Amazon talks to the ISY Portal, the ISY Portal talks to my ISY and then it reverses with a confirmation or something?  I would like to understand how this all ties together in detail so it would help me troubleshoot in the future (and this time really).

Thanks for the help.

 

 

[gviliunas]

The communication between ISY and PLM follows the old serial RS232 device standard. RS-232 had a cable limit of 25'. The communication speed between ISY and PLM is 19.2K baud so I am surprised that your system is working as well as it is with a 60+' cable.

Edited November 5, 2019 by gviliunas

[ulrick65]

1 hour ago, gviliunas said:

The communication between ISY and PLM follows the old serial RS232 device standard. RS-232 had a cable limit of 25'. The communication speed between ISY and PLM is 19.2K baud so I am surprised that your system is working as well as it is with a 60+' cable.

Thanks.  I believe the actual standard is 50' for RS232... Back in the late 80's/early 90's when I was doing equipment installs in papermills, we ran a lot over RS232 and panel to panel was often over 25' not at that high a baud usually.

I do think that 50' is probably pushing this install...but again, it all seems to work except Alexa gives these errors at times.  I am curious to know if the cable could be causing that or if there might be something else going with the connection.

[bmercier]

17 hours ago, ulrick65 said:

I have been using Alexa with ISY for a long time and really very few issues...responds well, etc.

We had some power issues here this past week and decided that I needed to get my ISY on the UPS with the rest of my Network gear, servers, etc. Up to this point, it has been stationed next to the power panel as that is the best spot in the house I found for it way back when I set it up...I get good signal to all my devices (using a wired in phase bridge in the panel).  I have a LOT of older devices that are not dual band.

So basically after reading on here that others extended the serial cable to 30' plus, I decided to try it myself.  I basically, took isy and moved it near my network switch  and took the old network cable (it is a 50' - CAT6 purchased cable, not one I made) and plugged that into the PLM and then into ISY's Port, then a short network cable into ISY and into the same port on the switch it has always been in.  Everything worked great, no issues.  I have seen zero problems from the admin console, controlling devices, etc. (at least all that I tried).

However, I have started to see issues from Alexa now.  She complains "<device> is not responding".  Sometimes I can do it 3 times and nothing...walk into the other room and ask the other Echo and it works first time.  Sometimes, it will give me the error, I turn it off from the admin console and then ask Alexa to turn the same device on and it works first try.  Just odd stuff like that...not all the time, but more in the past week then it has in the past year...so I am wondering if that long table is causing a problem?

My questions:

1.  Do you think the cable would be the issue?  I am not sure how the discussion goes between Alexa and ISY (hence my next question) but I would think as long as alexa can talk to the ISY, it doesn't care what happens at the PLM?

2.  How the discussion go between the two?  I assume something like this:  Alexa talks to Amazon, Amazon talks to the ISY Portal, the ISY Portal talks to my ISY and then it reverses with a confirmation or something?  I would like to understand how this all ties together in detail so it would help me troubleshoot in the future (and this time really).

Thanks for the help.

 

 

Recommended troubleshooting sequence:

1. Use the admin console or web interface from ISY to turn on/off devices. 

2. Use the ISY Portal web interface to turn on/off these same devices.

3. Then try these same devices through Alexa.

 

If it's a PLM problem, it should fail at step one.

Step 2 helps you determine if ISY is communicating with Portal correctly.

If it fails at step 3 only, then you know it's an Alexa related problem. If so, this can help you: https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY_Portal_Amazon_Echo_Integration_V3

 

[ulrick65]

5 hours ago, bmercier said:

Recommended troubleshooting sequence:

1. Use the admin console or web interface from ISY to turn on/off devices. 

2. Use the ISY Portal web interface to turn on/off these same devices.

3. Then try these same devices through Alexa.

 

If it's a PLM problem, it should fail at step one.

Step 2 helps you determine if ISY is communicating with Portal correctly.

If it fails at step 3 only, then you know it's an Alexa related problem. If so, this can help you: https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY_Portal_Amazon_Echo_Integration_V3

 

Thanks, I was doing 1 and 3, but forgot about the web interface on the portal.  I will try that next time it happens.

Would still like to understand the actual communication pathway, sends and receives, etc. if anyone knows how that all works I would love to know.  This would help me understand if Alexa talks to the portal and that's it, or if it actually gets confirmation all the way from ISY on the success or failure of the command.

Thanks.

[bmercier]

59 minutes ago, ulrick65 said:

Thanks, I was doing 1 and 3, but forgot about the web interface on the portal.  I will try that next time it happens.

Would still like to understand the actual communication pathway, sends and receives, etc. if anyone knows how that all works I would love to know.  This would help me understand if Alexa talks to the portal and that's it, or if it actually gets confirmation all the way from ISY on the success or failure of the command.

Thanks.

Communication pathway:

1. ISY opens a permanent connection with ISY Portal at boot time, and retries to connect when communication is interrupted.

2. ISY Portal sends commands to ISY through that connection, when required. A few security checks are done, such as the communication must have been previously approved in the admin console.

Alexa command confirmation:

The command is sent to the ISY in the same way as when using ISY Portal web access or the local UI. In other words, yes, there is a round trip to the ISY, and even to the actual device.

Benoit

 

 

[ulrick65]

24 minutes ago, bmercier said:

Communication pathway:

1. ISY opens a permanent connection with ISY Portal at boot time, and retries to connect when communication is interrupted.

2. ISY Portal sends commands to ISY through that connection, when required. A few security checks are done, such as the communication must have been previously approved in the admin console.

Alexa command confirmation:

The command is sent to the ISY in the same way as when using ISY Portal web access or the local UI. In other words, yes, there is a round trip to the ISY, and even to the actual device.

Benoit

 

 

Ok, thanks for that.  So for sure if the serial cable is causing a loss, then Alexa would know about it.

I am definitely seeing more issues...I will shorten the cable back up and report back on findings.  I have other options, this was just an easy way to get ISY powered by a UPS.

One question @bmercier that this make me ask then:

If the ISY is getting confirmation from the device, why does it report in the admin console that the device turned on when it didn't?  I have been doing testing for example, I have "light A" that is part of a scene and I tell Alexa to turn it on.  Light B comes one and all the keypad buttons associated in the scene come on, but light A does not.  However, ISY Admin shows that light a is at 100% and on.  If I right click on Light A and query...it updates to OFF.

Thanks. 

[bmercier]

34 minutes ago, ulrick65 said:

Ok, thanks for that.  So for sure if the serial cable is causing a loss, then Alexa would know about it.

I am definitely seeing more issues...I will shorten the cable back up and report back on findings.  I have other options, this was just an easy way to get ISY powered by a UPS.

One question @bmercier that this make me ask then:

If the ISY is getting confirmation from the device, why does it report in the admin console that the device turned on when it didn't?  I have been doing testing for example, I have "light A" that is part of a scene and I tell Alexa to turn it on.  Light B comes one and all the keypad buttons associated in the scene come on, but light A does not.  However, ISY Admin shows that light a is at 100% and on.  If I right click on Light A and query...it updates to OFF.

Thanks. 

There is something else at play. First make sure that you can control devices using web access successfully.

Benoit

[ulrick65]

23 hours ago, bmercier said:

There is something else at play. First make sure that you can control devices using web access successfully.

Benoit

I can, works fine.  My one question was around standard ISY functionality.  What I am wondering is if there is confirmation to the device level (which you previously said there is), why does ISY not use that confirmation in normal operation (unrelated to the issue here in this thread).  In the example I gave with the scene...why does ISY report the light on when clearly it isn't (when I query it, it shows off...which is correct).

Thanks.

[bmercier]

I can, works fine.  My one question was around standard ISY functionality.  What I am wondering is if there is confirmation to the device level (which you previously said there is), why does ISY not use that confirmation in normal operation (unrelated to the issue here in this thread).  In the example I gave with the scene...why does ISY report the light on when clearly it isn't (when I query it, it shows off...which is correct).
Thanks.

Looks like there is a low level problem. Insteon or ZWave communication problem or perhaps a problem with links.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ulrick65]

1 minute ago, bmercier said:

Looks like there is a low level problem. Insteon or ZWave communication problem or perhaps a problem with links.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So you are saying that ISY should report that it did not get confirmation from the device that it received the command and executed it?  I have never seen that in all the years I have been using ISY. 

If a device is completely unreachable, yes...I get the "can not communicate with device" message and then the exclamation point by the device.  But many times if a device just misses a command on occasion (it is rare for me, but I do have a few devices that are in "bad spots" in my house that are getting noise or whatever and do occasionaly fail to turn on or off then the device simply shows as on in the admin console, but it isn't.  I execute the command again and it usually solves the problem...but all the while, ISY shows the light as ON (unless I query it and then it will update to the status of off 99.9% of the time).

[asbril]

I had not used Alexa for a while.  I wanted to add another device to work with Alexa and added it in my ISY Portal. I clicked on the refresh icon in ISY Portal (Alexa), but it did not show up in my Alexa App.  I ended up unlinking  UDI from the Alexa App and re-link. That worked but I assume that there is a way to simply refresh the link ?????

[ulrick65]

15 minutes ago, asbril said:

I had not used Alexa for a while.  I wanted to add another device to work with Alexa and added it in my ISY Portal. I clicked on the refresh icon in ISY Portal (Alexa), but it did not show up in my Alexa App.  I ended up unlinking  UDI from the Alexa App and re-link. That worked but I assume that there is a way to simply refresh the link ?????

After adding to the portal, you go into your Alexa app and click on Discover Devices.  Or, you can tell Alexa to do it to...Alexa Discover My Devices

[asbril]

32 minutes ago, ulrick65 said:

click on Discover Devices

For time being I will use the voice command that you gave me, but I was unable to find "Discover Devices" in the IOS App.

[larryllix]

3 minutes ago, asbril said:

For time being I will use the voice command that you gave me, but I was unable to find "Discover Devices" in the IOS App.

I think it is at the very bottom of the devices page in the Android app, along with Delete All devices. That needs to be every so often to clear out the change of hearts in naming you had over the years.

I mostly use the vocal "Alexa...discover". Then it vocally let's you know what new devices it found.

Edited November 14, 2019 by larryllix

[asbril]

19 minutes ago, larryllix said:

the very bottom of the devices page

Nothing in IOS

[larryllix]

21 minutes ago, asbril said:

Nothing in IOS

Missing in Android app also now. I know they want to get everything by vocal control but I don't see how to remove superfluous items anymore. Maybe it is self cleansing now?

[ulrick65]

1 hour ago, larryllix said:

Missing in Android app also now. I know they want to get everything by vocal control but I don't see how to remove superfluous items anymore. Maybe it is self cleansing now?

Scroll down to the bottom of the Scenes tab...it's there

[asbril]

21 minutes ago, ulrick65 said:

Scroll down to the bottom of the Scenes tab...it's there

Interesting..... Indeed below Scenes, but not below Lights, Switches etc. But the Discover below Scenes is ONLY to discover Scenes.

Edited November 15, 2019 by asbril

[gzahar]

On iOS. 

Go to Devices.

Click + (upper right)

Select 'Add Device'

Select 'Other' (bottom)

Select 'Discover Devices'