Z-Wave scenes

[bktong]

Did a little more testing.  I removed the Dimmer from the ISY scene.  Now completely rely on the programs to trigger.  Tap 1 works as multi-tap.  So, the conclusion is that Z-Wave alone has the popcorn effect.  

[simplextech]

28 minutes ago, bktong said:

Did a little more testing.  I removed the Dimmer from the ISY scene.  Now completely rely on the programs to trigger.  Tap 1 works as multi-tap.  So, the conclusion is that Z-Wave alone has the popcorn effect.  

Yup.  Reason why it's not great for lighting.  The best you'll get with Z-Wave with "less" popcorn effect is by using Z-Wave Associations from a Scene Controller.  ISY does not support Z-Wave Associations (currently).  You are limited to essentially line of sight or single room with Z-Wave Associations as it's a broadcast message from Scene Controller to the other devices which means it can't route through repeaters.

I said "less" so @lilyoyo1 doesn't come beating me over the head because yes there are instances and times when popcorn is noticed.  Just less of it.

[bktong]

Thanks for the reply.  First time learning about Z-Wave Associations.  Anyone knows when ISY will support Associations? 

[simplextech]

24 minutes ago, bktong said:

Thanks for the reply.  First time learning about Z-Wave Associations.  Anyone knows when ISY will support Associations? 

Dunno... not soon or ever as associations aren't very common anymore with smarter gateways controlling things.  Less and less devices are supporting associations as well so you have to check devices specifically if they support it or not.

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, simplextech said:

 

I said "less" so @lilyoyo1 doesn't come beating me over the head because yes there are instances and times when popcorn is noticed.  Just less of it.

I would never do something like that. Lol. We all know associations is the best feature ever

38 minutes ago, bktong said:

Thanks for the reply.  First time learning about Z-Wave Associations.  Anyone knows when ISY will support Associations? 

As Simplextech said, probably never. Too many caveats as well as different mechanisms in play with different manufacturers.

The main reason I see is you actually have a worse experience from a controller standpoint as it is no longer the controller of those linked devices. This can be impactful Depending on setup, since it won't know the status of devices that are being controlled by association

[simplextech]

2 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

The main reason I see is you actually have a worse experience from a controller standpoint as it is no longer the controller of those linked devices.

If you have a smart gateway like the ISY then you lose more than you will gain from associations.  UNLESS the devices in question support multiple associations where you can associate the gateway AND controller to keep all parties in sync.  Typical keypad controllers don't support this and fewer and fewer gateway hubs are supporting this.

The flip side is if you do NOT have a smart gateway controller like ISY or another "hub" or something and your "controller" is just a multi button switch or keypad AND all you want to do is control those 2-5 OTHER light switches in the room... Yeah go for it.  Then someday when you add more devices you will have to ditch the "Scene Controller" keypad.

[lilyoyo1]

18 minutes ago, simplextech said:

If you have a smart gateway like the ISY then you lose more than you will gain from associations.  UNLESS the devices in question support multiple associations where you can associate the gateway AND controller to keep all parties in sync.  Typical keypad controllers don't support this and fewer and fewer gateway hubs are supporting this.

The flip side is if you do NOT have a smart gateway controller like ISY or another "hub" or something and your "controller" is just a multi button switch or keypad AND all you want to do is control those 2-5 OTHER light switches in the room... Yeah go for it.  Then someday when you add more devices you will have to ditch the "Scene Controller" keypad.

All those caveats..... Gotta love it

[simplextech]

2 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

All those caveats..... Gotta love it

I thought I would be thorough in explaining how much it sucks

 

[bktong]

I have, of course, Insteon devices and have been using ISY for years.  I will eventually change out all Insteon devices with Z-Wave devices.  I guess the best option is to stay with ISY, which I love, until all of Insteon devices are gone.  Agree?  Or suggestions? Thanks.  Is the Associations option built into each Z-wave device or in the hub?  I know I have a lot to learn about Z-Wave.  

[simplextech]

1 minute ago, bktong said:

Is the Associations option built into each Z-wave device or in the hub?

Both.

Both device and hub need to support associations.  Mainly the device needs to support it and the hub needs to be able to configure/manage it.

3 minutes ago, bktong said:

Or suggestions?

Insteon is great for lighting but has it's own issues.  Z-Wave is bad for lighting (IMHO) but has other uses like sensors and other devices not available in Insteon and alternatives would be zigbee if available or wifi if available.  Z-Wave isn't horrible in and of itself.  Z-Wave implementations from hubs and devices come into play as some are better than others. 

 

[lilyoyo1]

8 hours ago, bktong said:

I have, of course, Insteon devices and have been using ISY for years.  I will eventually change out all Insteon devices with Z-Wave devices.  I guess the best option is to stay with ISY, which I love, until all of Insteon devices are gone.  Agree?  Or suggestions? Thanks.  Is the Associations option built into each Z-wave device or in the hub?  I know I have a lot to learn about Z-Wave.  

It really depends on why you're switching out and what you are looking to get from zwave. No protocol is perfect. I'm with @simplextechin that insteon is better for lighting and zwave for everything else....specifically sensors and locks.

IMO, insteon is much easier to setup and definitely more versatile. Zwave can offer more features depending on product but there are still many gotchas with it as you can see such as associations. Getting the most out of either really comes down to the skill and imagination of the programmer. 

[bktong]

Thanks lilyoyo1 and simplextech for your comments and suggestions!!!!

Insteon devices have treated me well over the years but Smarthome has not been updating its products nor coming with new products or add features to the existing ones.  On average lifespan on the lighting devices is about 3-4 years max.  I do want to keep their Keypad.  Hoping Z-Wave with other vendors would last longer and the LED feature is very useful plus the multi-tap feature.  As my Insteon light devices end of life, I planned to replace with Z-Wave devices.   Will also keep ISY for my Insteon devices and eventually get a separate Z-Wave controller for Z-Wave devices as I get more devices.  Is my logic flawed? 

[larryllix]

All my lighting devices, including ApplianceLincs, OnOffLincs, LampLincs, SwitchLincs are mostly  all original from six years ago (Jan 2014) . I have had one OnOffLinc module send out bad codes, instead of NAK, which a simple power cycle cured for about three years ago. Other than that no basic lighting modules have ever given me problems or needed replacing.

However, I had had a SynchroLInc burn out, a KPL act up when new and was replaced, 3-4 MS I units go nuts/bad and need replacing, a iRLinc came with reversed sensor wiring and also would never program from ISY, but never any basic lighting or appliance components became questionable.

What else would basic lighting components ever want? Temperature sensor functions that show the internal heating of  the electronics? Power consumed of the 100 Watt bulb screwed into the fixture connected? An occupancy sensing SwitchLinc Dimmer?...OK I'll give you that one.

While I agree SmartHome has really become a deadbeat company, what we really need is the fancy stuff, especially battery operated devices instead of the junk they accept from Chinese developers, with no QC at all. I won't go into a gadget company trying to understand what a thermostat is supposed to do.

[bktong]

Larryllix, 

You had better luck.  I do notice that most none wall switch devices do last longer than wall switches.  I have everything you mentioned plus more.  I am swapping out wall light switches with Z-Wave for life duration, LED, multi-tap scene, build quality.  Their thermostat is a joke, temperature reading is delay, not real time.  Miss the Venstar thermostat with Insteon protocol. 

[simplextech]

10 minutes ago, bktong said:

Z-Wave for life duration

This will depend on vendor.  Same with build quality.  Some are good, some are not. 

10 minutes ago, bktong said:

LED, multi-tap scene

The LED I guess is nice, some people use it for indicators of things (use keypads).  The multi-tap scene control it's "cool" and then it wears off because people do not remember what 3 taps up or 4 taps down does across several different switches.  Keypads are far better than multi-tap scene control (IMHO)

In my home and designs if you have to touch a switch there needs to be a specific reason for it.

[bktong]

LOL. My wife does not want to look at small buttons to figure which one to push.  So, KeypadLinc is not her favorite.  Let alone with multi-tap for her.  Mostly it's for me.  

[simplextech]

8 minutes ago, bktong said:

LOL. My wife does not want to look at small buttons to figure which one to push.  So, KeypadLinc is not her favorite.  Let alone with multi-tap for her.  Mostly it's for me.  

Yeah the buttons on the KPL are rather small.  Not the greatest.  There are better when looking outside of Insteon.

[lilyoyo1]

3 hours ago, bktong said:

Thanks lilyoyo1 and simplextech for your comments and suggestions!!!!

Insteon devices have treated me well over the years but Smarthome has not been updating its products nor coming with new products or add features to the existing ones.  On average lifespan on the lighting devices is about 3-4 years max.  I do want to keep their Keypad.  Hoping Z-Wave with other vendors would last longer and the LED feature is very useful plus the multi-tap feature.  As my Insteon light devices end of life, I planned to replace with Z-Wave devices.   Will also keep ISY for my Insteon devices and eventually get a separate Z-Wave controller for Z-Wave devices as I get more devices.  Is my logic flawed? 

You might want to search other forums to find out about lifespan of other products. There are many people swapping out zwave devices in the same time frame....sometimes less. Ditto for controllers. The grass isn't always greener. But then again, you never know until you try. 

Some zwave devices have some novel features that insteon doesn't have. However none really work as well as insteon basic/core features which in the end matter most when it comes to lighting. As mentioned earlier. Extra taps are just too much. The most we use is 2 and that generally when a switch serves dual purpose such as my patio kpl. A single tapnsets the patio up for my wife. A dbl tap sets it up for me. I try to program things so that it's intuitive and as close to normal as possible 

It's not whether your logic is flawed or not. If you want something then that's what matters. I would be honest with yourself and ask if what you gain is worth what you lose. The popcorn effect is a non starter for me. I don't care what features something has. Where you are flawed is running a separate controller for insteon and another for zwave. Unless you join the 2 as 1 network, it will be a subpar system. 

[bktong]

Regarding lifespan, I am trying two brands, Homeseer and Inovelli.  Both seem to have good build quality to them and good reviews.  I will take your suggestion to search forums here to seek out other people's experiences.  

For now to reduce the popcorn effect, I have programmed each Z-wave light switch with double-tap (Fast On/Off in ISY) to trigger ISY scene.  It seems to work with less of the popcorn effect. 

Or leave the Z-Wave device out of ISY Scene/group and write more programs to trigger the local switch whenever other devices within the ISY scene is pressed.  Then I can use a single-tap triggers the ISY scene to have less popcorn effort.  Yet to try my theory with this one.   

[asbril]

54 minutes ago, bktong said:

Homeseer and Inovelli.

After experiencing with different brands, I now only recommend GE/Jasco and Homeseer.  Inovelli is innovative but customer service is not excellent and their devices can be complicated to set up. Sometimes buying cheap is more expensive.

[simplextech]

1 minute ago, asbril said:

After experiencing with different brands, I now only recommend GE/Jasco and Homeseer.  Inovelli is innovative but customer service is not excellent and their devices can be complicated to set up. Sometimes buying cheap is more expensive.

I'll also through zooZ brand into the ring.  I have several of their devices and the customer support from TheSmartestHouse (front end for them) has been excellent.

[simplextech]

One more thing @asbril the HomeSeer switches/dimmers are over priced re-brands of ZLINK devices.

https://www.zwaveproducts.com/collections/z-wave-in-wall-dimmers

 

 

[asbril]

25 minutes ago, simplextech said:

One more thing @asbril the HomeSeer switches/dimmers are over priced re-brands of ZLINK devices.

https://www.zwaveproducts.com/collections/z-wave-in-wall-dimmers

 

 

Are these the equivalent of the Homeseer 200 series or the 100 series? If the latter, then the price is not very different.

[simplextech]

5 minutes ago, asbril said:

Are these the equivalent of the Homeseer 200 series or the 100 series? If the latter, then the price is not very different.

ZLINK is another brand of the same products.  They are from the same ODM as where HS gets them from.  Those on that page are the 100 series but you can find the 200 series as well. 

Point being the HS are not designed by HS they are just like most other z-wave devices that are re-branded.