Opinions? Vacant building monitoring

[kohai]

I've got a 45,000 sq ft commercial building that the tenant is moving out of.  It has an alarm system and old camera system (exterior doors).  Last year there was a pipe issue and flooded part of the building.  I'm concerned of the building being empty and nobody to be there to notice such a thing for possibly a couple of weeks at a time.  The realtor said turning off utilities like water make the building stinky and not show well for potential buyers/tenants.

My thoughts:

1. Alarm system - add zones to the alarm system to monitor water/flood sensors.  I'd have to pay someone to do that since I don't manage the alarm system (I guess I could take that over but... it's a big building and I'd rather not spend a ton of time figuring out its setup). 

Upside:  good long term solution for future floods, could add sensors to utility rooms

Downside: can't easily add sensors under sinks or by toilets without a lot of effort or wouldn't be discreet

2. Z-wave - HomeSeer HS-LS100+ sensors are reasonably priced at about $27.  I could add an ISY994i.

Upside: For a short term solution, it would be easy to deploy sensors

Downside: Need to get a mobile hotspot/internet setup as there is no internet in the building.  No long term monitoring without turning over the z-wave setup to a new tenant which they probably won't want or maintain.

3. Sensor tags - about the same price as the Homeseer so I'm not really considering it, would still need some sort of connectivity.  Not a system I have used and not something I would use after.

 

The building also has an older camera DVR that I may want to try to upgrade so I can tap into for remote access.  Not having a regular internet service would be a downside.  I'm considering a cheap mobile hotspot if the traffic needs are small enough.  Being a commercial building, a business internet account would probably be required to get any internet service easily.  

Anyway, kind of a random project.  Anybody have ideas I haven't considered?

[lilyoyo1]

I'd go with a commercial solution vs an automated one

[simplextech]

9 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I'd go with a commercial solution vs an automated one

What about an automated commercial solution? Huh??????

Go with a commercial solution and NOT a DIY setup.

[Teken]

Just one word: Insurance . . . ?

[kohai]

1 hour ago, simplextech said:

What about an automated commercial solution? Huh??????

Go with a commercial solution and NOT a DIY setup.

So, what do you mean by a commercial solution?  Give an example.

[kohai]

1 hour ago, Teken said:

Just one word: Insurance . . . ?

Already in the works.

[simplextech]

18 minutes ago, kohai said:

So, what do you mean by a commercial solution?  Give an example.

Poking @lilyoyo1 mostly.  I was referring to security panels that provide some level of automations as well.  Such as ELK panels.  Professional security panels that have some automation capabilities. 

I get not wanting to completely turn off the water to the building.  However it being a commercial building you should be able to turn off specific zones to the building which would reduce the number of areas needing to be monitored for water leaks?

[kohai]

Just now, simplextech said:

Poking @lilyoyo1 mostly.  I was referring to security panels that provide some level of automations as well.  Such as ELK panels.  Professional security panels that have some automation capabilities. 

I get not wanting to completely turn off the water to the building.  However it being a commercial building you should be able to turn off specific zones to the building which would reduce the number of areas needing to be monitored for water leaks?

I'll have to see what the alarm system guy says when I talk to him -- e.g. what is the system, etc.

The realtor said the down side of turning off the water is that the p traps dry up and then the bathrooms smell horrible.  When walking potential buyers/tenants through it is a big turn off.  I'm guessing we'll have smell issues anyway without bathroom fans running regularly...  He's willing to run the water and flush toilets when he's there and I can have a nearby relative do the same occasionally.  I just want to be able to sleep at night and not lay there worrying that there could be a leak that I have no idea about because I haven't been to the building for a couple weeks.

[lilyoyo1]

23 minutes ago, kohai said:

So, what do you mean by a commercial solution?  Give an example.

I would check with local contractors to see what they recommend. This isn't something you want to tackle on your own. 

The likelihood of something going wrong is greatly increased with diy. The last thing you would want is something not triggering properly and causing a high level of damage

[simplextech]

8 minutes ago, kohai said:

The realtor said the down side of turning off the water is that the p traps dry up and then the bathrooms smell horrible. 

Depending on how long the water sits there it's going to smell bad anyways.  Old trick is to fill all of the drains with pine sol.  Kills bacteria that will smell and keeps things smelling "clean".

[kohai]

12 minutes ago, simplextech said:

Depending on how long the water sits there it's going to smell bad anyways.  Old trick is to fill all of the drains with pine sol.  Kills bacteria that will smell and keeps things smelling "clean".

Ahh, good idea.

[kohai]

22 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I would check with local contractors to see what they recommend. This isn't something you want to tackle on your own. 

The likelihood of something going wrong is greatly increased with diy. The last thing you would want is something not triggering properly and causing a high level of damage

I'm not sure what your distinction is between diy and a contractor if it's the same tool being implemented -- other than the person implementing it.  I'm looking for tool recommendations -- whether that is a contractor oriented tool or consumer oriented.  If you're just questioning my skills -- that's not really what I'm asking for input on.   

[lilyoyo1]

44 minutes ago, kohai said:

I'm not sure what your distinction is between diy and a contractor if it's the same tool being implemented -- other than the person implementing it.  I'm looking for tool recommendations -- whether that is a contractor oriented tool or consumer oriented.  If you're just questioning my skills -- that's not really what I'm asking for input on.   

It's not the same tools being implemented. While there can be done overlap between diy and commercial, commercial is generally much more robust along with redundancies built in to ensure operational stability.

Skills do matter alot. Knowledge and experience even moreso. For example. Network equipment. How many corporate places would you walk in and see Google WiFi pods plugged into the wall? No, they'll generally have an Enterprise solution along with people who understand how to set it up and keep it running.

 

[kohai]

Just now, lilyoyo1 said:

It's not the same tools being implemented. While there can be done overlap between diy and commercial, commercial is generally much more robust along with redundancies built in to ensure operational stability.

Skills do matter alot. Knowledge and experience even moreso. For example. Network equipment. How many corporate places would you walk in and see Google WiFi pods plugged into the wall? No, they'll generally have an Enterprise solution along with people who understand how to set it up and keep it running.

 

You still haven't made a suggestion.

[lilyoyo1]

4 minutes ago, kohai said:

You still haven't made a suggestion.

I did. I said find a local contractor. I know nothing of the building itself other than the size. Depending on where things are located and building materials, that can mean the difference from using wired vs wireless. What kind of condition is your current cameras & wires? Where are they located and mounted? Were those good locations from the start? 

Just because you currently have a working solution doesn't mean it was the best solution. Especially when trying to modernize it. That's why others haven't really given solutions. Certain types of projects of a certain scale truly require more than just saying use xyz

[kohai]

31 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I did. I said find a local contractor. I know nothing of the building itself other than the size. Depending on where things are located and building materials, that can mean the difference from using wired vs wireless. What kind of condition is your current cameras & wires? Where are they located and mounted? Were those good locations from the start? 

Just because you currently have a working solution doesn't mean it was the best solution. Especially when trying to modernize it. That's why others haven't really given solutions. Certain types of projects of a certain scale truly require more than just saying use xyz

I got your point but I think you've missed mine.  Feel free to drop out of the discussion.

For others, if I've been unclear, if someone has a great tool they like in any of the areas I originally listed I'm happy to simply get a product name and I'll go do my own research and see if it applies to me or may be something useful.

[Teken]

I got your point but I think you've missed mine.  Feel free to drop out of the discussion.
For others, if I've been unclear, if someone has a great tool they like in any of the areas I originally listed I'm happy to simply get a product name and I'll go do my own research and see if it applies to me or may be something useful.

(BDV) Budget? Duration? Value?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kohai]

2 minutes ago, Teken said:

 

(BDV) Budget? Duration? Value?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

If you were doing it for yourself, what would you use?

Budget isn't much of an issue.  As mentioned, the flood sensors are for use while the building is vacant so may not necessarily be permanent.  Camera ideas could be permanent.  

[Teken]

If you were doing it for yourself, what would you use?
Budget isn't much of an issue.  As mentioned, the flood sensors are for use while the building is vacant so may not necessarily be permanent.  Camera ideas could be permanent.  

The reason I asked about BDV is this normally dictates what most of what we do. If the value of the property runs below 10 million, and the property will be empty for an extended period of time.

Read more than a year, the lower levels are bordered up and caged with perimeter fencing.

Every door in the building is closed, locked, and secure taped.

At least three (Axis) PTZ cameras are installed and linked to a 24 HR CS.

Camera one is placed on the exterior roof. Camera two is installed on the exterior first level on the opposing side and the third camera is installed where likely entry / breach will happen.

Stationary cameras are installed in key areas for all entry / exits and important rooms such as mechanical / electrical.

Temperature, water, fire, electrical, are all hardwired and monitored through the CS. If the building is valued more than 10 million on site guard(s) are hired to walk the perimeter and interior 24 HRS. All floors, zones are tagged (iBeacon) to insure the guard walks the line and it’s reported back to the CS with time stamps.

A monthly fire check must be completed on all fire systems from smoke, co, sprinklers, elevator. All of the above gets documented and relayed to the insurance to ensure coverage remains enforced.

Anytime wireless sensors need to be used we deploy Monnit cellular sensors. All of the readings are sent to our on site servers and any sensor in alarm or trip threshold the same is relayed to the CS, and our team.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mustang65]

3 hours ago, kohai said:

 

The realtor said the down side of turning off the water is that the p traps dry up and then the bathrooms smell horrible.  When walking potential buyers/tenants through it is a big turn off.  I'm guessing we'll have smell issues anyway without bathroom fans running regularly...  He's willing to run the water and flush toilets when he's there and I can have a nearby relative do the same occasionally.  I just want to be able to sleep at night and not lay there worrying that there could be a leak that I have no idea about because I haven't been to the building for a couple weeks.

Here is what we do when we leave for 4 months at at time to head up to the RV in the Blue Ridge Mountains. Prior to leaving, we take Stretch Type plastic food wrap and seal the toilet bowls. The water does not evaporate. That is one issue you will not need to constantly worry about. We have been doing it for 8 years with no problems.

[kohai]

8 minutes ago, Teken said:

 

The reason I asked about BDV is this normally dictates what most of what we do. If the value of the property runs below 10 million, and the property will be empty for an extended period of time.

Read more than a year, the lower levels are bordered up and caged with perimeter fencing.

Every door in the building is closed, locked, and secure taped.

At least three (Axis) PTZ cameras are installed and linked to a 24 HR CS.

Camera one is placed on the exterior roof. Camera two is installed on the exterior first level on the opposing side and the third camera is installed where likely entry / breach will happen.

Stationary cameras are installed in key areas for all entry / exits and important rooms such as mechanical / electrical.

Temperature, water, fire, electrical, are all hardwired and monitored through the CS. If the building is valued more than 10 million on site guard(s) are hired to walk the perimeter and interior 24 HRS. All floors, zones are tagged (iBeacon) to insure the guard walks the line and it’s reported back to the CS with time stamps.

A monthly fire check must be completed on all fire systems from smoke, co, sprinklers, elevator. All of the above gets documented and relayed to the insurance to ensure coverage remains enforced.

Anytime wireless sensors need to be used we deploy Monnit cellular sensors. All of the readings are sent to our on site servers and any sensor in alarm or trip threshold the same is relayed to the CS, and our team.
 

 

That's really interesting -- I haven't heard of security at that level for an empty building.  I would guess in some cities and location that would be needed.  I don't think I've ever seen a building around here boarded up and fenced off as a temporary security measure.  That makes me ask myself the good question about what level is needed here. 

There are cameras on the exterior doors but I'm guessing the DVR is ancient and not remotely accessible and probably no motion triggers.  I'll have to see what the alarm system actually has sensors on.  This a $4M building, 2 story, and about 75% is office space and it will be totally empty.  Building is older.  It was estimated it could take a year to lease/sale and we're 9 months into that.  With the COVID-19, I'm guessing it will take longer than usual to lease/sale.  I'm guessing commercial real estate takes a decent slow down even though it's been pretty hot in this county for the past couple of years.  That hot construction market is probably going to cause excess inventory around here.

[simplextech]

2 minutes ago, kohai said:

That makes me ask myself the good question about what level is needed here. 

Location of the building?

What is the neighborhood and surrounding neighborhoods to those like? 

When considering VACANT building security it's not just about potential water leaks or juvenile vandals you also have homeless and squatters that will "move-in" to the building and bring all their friends and now you have a shanty town inside your building and it will be destroyed.

[kohai]

5 minutes ago, Mustang65 said:

Here is what we do when we leave for 4 months at at time to head up to the RV in the Blue Ridge Mountains. Prior to leaving, we take Stretch Type plastic food wrap and seal the toilet bowls. The water does not evaporate. That is one issue you will not need to constantly worry about. We have been doing it for 8 years with no problems.

 Interesting idea.  I've never heard of that.

[kohai]

2 minutes ago, simplextech said:

Location of the building?

What is the neighborhood and surrounding neighborhoods to those like? 

When considering VACANT building security it's not just about potential water leaks or juvenile vandals you also have homeless and squatters that will "move-in" to the building and bring all their friends and now you have a shanty town inside your building and it will be destroyed.

It's in a light industrial business park, smaller town.  At night, when the other nearby businesses are closed is when odd activity is likely to occur.  I don't know how likely homeless are to be in the area.   The homeless shelter is the next freeway exit up and there's no good frontage road between them.  The truck stop and freeway entrance is about a mile away.  I know the businesses at the next freeway exit do have to watch out for the homeless sleeping in the shrubs, etc.

[Mustang65]

Just now, kohai said:

 Interesting idea.  I've never heard of that.

Works GREAT! But there is a down side, if you do not take a black permanent marker and put a BIG X on the top, there could be some issues if some one does not see the wrap on the bowl. If I remember correctly there is usually a main water valve that controls the bathrooms in commercial buildings it usually is in a 18x18" panel that if you locate it you can turn the water off for the bathrooms.

One other thing, we close all the sink drains and blue painter tape over the little overflow hole in the bathroom sinks.

Unlike you, I just turn off the city water supply.... just in case.