Program vs Scene on Z-Wavew with MQTT

[TriLife]

Greetings;

I finally got my whole system up, running and mostly standing on its own feet:

ISY994 Z-Wave

Polisy Pro

about 90 Sonoff/Tasmota devices connected to an MQTT node server on the Polisy. (addressing individually and by GroupTopics)

A dozen AeoTec Z-wave multisensors and some Walmote Quad Switches

Generally speaking, the system works, but it displays some odd behavior, when scenes are involved:

- Semi-Random (as in the same but unrelated devices) ONs when programs execute scenes, which don't turn off again.

- difficulty addressing scenes with Google Voice etc.

 

Now, I read in the forum, that Scenes execute faster than programs... I'm guessing this statement doesn't apply to MQTT/Z-Wave, as devices need to be addressed individually anyway (except GroupTopic).

I'm thinking of abandoning the whole "Scene"  and sticking with programs. And, like in case of ALL OFF or PANIC, using GroupTopics to blast commands to a larger group of devices (Tasmota allows 4 GroupTopics per Device!).

 

Any comments would be appreciated;

 

Cheers

[Michel Kohanim]

@TriLife,

If you are referring to ISY Scenes, behind the scenes, they do what a program does. The question is whether or not Sonoff itself supports or has a concept of a scene. And, if so, then you can use the ISY Scene to use that instead. Otherwise, please let me know what you mean by Scene?

With kind regards,
Michel

[TriLife]

4 hours ago, Michel Kohanim said:

@TriLife,

If you are referring to ISY Scenes, behind the scenes, they do what a program does. The question is whether or not Sonoff itself supports or has a concept of a scene. And, if so, then you can use the ISY Scene to use that instead. Otherwise, please let me know what you mean by Scene?

With kind regards,
Michel

Hello Michel;

Yes, I'm referring to the "Scenes" in ISY. The button that looks like an RGB wheel. Tasmota/Sonoff, to my limited knowledge, can be addressed two ways - by Topic (name of the device) and GroupTopic (name of the group/s). 

The way you formulated your comment above makes me think that "Scene" may only work with Insteon (it is in the Insteon Link Management drop down Menu). If that were the case, then a "Scene" really wouldn't make sense for Tasmota, since all the devices listed in the "Scene" are addressed one at a time. Might as well list them individually in the Program.

I guess from a clarity standpoint, one could create a "Scene" and in it call the Tasmota GroupTopic. Or, assign the GroupTopic names an alphanumeric prefix, so they all show up together in a list of devices. Speaking of grouping, on the MAIN tab, individual items can be grouped, but it only seems to group according to predetermined parameters, like all MQTT devices group together, all sensors of a Z-Wave multi-sensor group under that particular ZW address etc... I didn't find a means of grouping them according to my needs, like maybe a ROOM or PANIC or GARDEN or ... the equivalent of a "Scene", isn't it... Maybe this can become a feature request...

 

Cheers;

[lilyoyo1]

2 hours ago, TriLife said:

Hello Michel;

Yes, I'm referring to the "Scenes" in ISY. The button that looks like an RGB wheel. Tasmota/Sonoff, to my limited knowledge, can be addressed two ways - by Topic (name of the device) and GroupTopic (name of the group/s). 

The way you formulated your comment above makes me think that "Scene" may only work with Insteon (it is in the Insteon Link Management drop down Menu). If that were the case, then a "Scene" really wouldn't make sense for Tasmota, since all the devices listed in the "Scene" are addressed one at a time. Might as well list them individually in the Program.

I guess from a clarity standpoint, one could create a "Scene" and in it call the Tasmota GroupTopic. Or, assign the GroupTopic names an alphanumeric prefix, so they all show up together in a list of devices. Speaking of grouping, on the MAIN tab, individual items can be grouped, but it only seems to group according to predetermined parameters, like all MQTT devices group together, all sensors of a Z-Wave multi-sensor group under that particular ZW address etc... I didn't find a means of grouping them according to my needs, like maybe a ROOM or PANIC or GARDEN or ... the equivalent of a "Scene", isn't it... Maybe this can become a feature request...

 

Cheers;

On the surface scenes work for insteon due to the insteon design and the fact that the isy was solely insteon based when it first came out. Unfortunately when you're sending different signals to different devices, it will become 1 at a time regardless of how set up.

Imagine being multi-lingual. Can you same the exact same phrase in 6 different languages at the exact same time? The answer is no. You'll say it in English, then Spanish, then Portuguese, Tagalog, French, and finally Arabic. This is how scenes work with the isy. Many systems have their own versions of scenes. Take a hue scene (group) and put it in the isy scene, hue will send out the command to the devices natively and they will turn on like normal.

If you are able to add your group topics like that then it would do the same (I don't use your devices so I can't say). The developer of your node servers can answer that.... Or if there's a way to create that capability.

The grouping function that you see is for like device nodes to stay together. For example, an insteon 8 button kpl can be grouped together to help manage them better. Same thing with a zwave motion sensor where nodes can end up all over the place. Unfortunately, it has nothing to do with what your trying to do.

In regards to scenes vs programs, I still prefer scenes regardless. For me it's much easier to manage simple on/off then h having to dig through a ton of programs. In the end, the best way is what fits you. There are no right or wrong ways when choosing scenes or programs

[TriLife]

Thanks Lilyoyo,

Great explanation.

If my limited understanding is correct, in Tasmota the term "Topic"  refers to a unique name given to each device, which gets the called by the program. So cmnd/Bart/power ON to "Bart" would acknowledged and processed by device Bart.

GroupTopic are secondary names (up to 4 per device) which don't need to be unique from device to device. So, when a program sends cmnd/Simpsons/power ON, Bart, Lisa, Homer etc all execute the command.

Only one command is sent, several devices respond. To use your metaphor, I speak in Turkish but all of my devices are multilingual and other than their native language also speak Turkish as a common language... If I want to address just Bart, I have to speak English...

Cheers.

[lilyoyo1]

20 minutes ago, TriLife said:

Thanks Lilyoyo,

Great explanation.

If my limited understanding is correct, in Tasmota the term "Topic"  refers to a unique name given to each device, which gets the called by the program. So cmnd/Bart/power ON to "Bart" would acknowledged and processed by device Bart.

GroupTopic are secondary names (up to 4 per device) which don't need to be unique from device to device. So, when a program sends cmnd/Simpsons/power ON, Bart, Lisa, Homer etc all execute the command.

Only one command is sent, several devices respond. To use your metaphor, I speak in Turkish but all of my devices are multilingual and other than their native language also speak Turkish as a common language... If I want to address just Bart, I have to speak English...

Cheers.

When you created your group topics, did you do that before or after you set everything in your isy? If after, try to re-discover your devices to see if it shows up in some type of drop down box. If it does, you would be able to control that group all at once

[TriLife]

13 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

When you created your group topics, did you do that before or after you set everything in your isy? If after, try to re-discover your devices to see if it shows up in some type of drop down box. If it does, you would be able to control that group all at once

As of now, the there is no Auto discovery of MQTT nodes. I had to create and upload a device list, which included all the Topics and GroupTopics as individual devices.  

This allows me to successfully address individual and groups of devices.

Unfortunately the GroupTopic and Topic show up as device names.

But this makes me think of a potential solution!!!

Each device has an id: and a name: lost d on the device file (id: is the Topic, name: is a Friendly name). It is the name:, which shows up in ISY. So, I can put name: "GROUP MyGroup" in the device file.

At least they will show up in one GROUP in the alphabetical MQTT listing.

Thanks for the nudge Lilyoyo...

Implementing right now. Will send you a screenshot.

Cheers

[TriLife]

That worked.

All my GroupTopics have a name: starting with a "Z", so they show up at the bottom of the MQTT group...

I guess an alternative way of doing it is to simply rename the device in ISY.

As a low priority wish-list item allowing to assign groups by user and,  A LOT higher, an auto discover feature for MQTT nodes (Tasmota even has an AutoDiscover Flag, 19 for that purpose).

Cheers

[lilyoyo1]

Just now, TriLife said:

That worked.

All my GroupTopics have a name: starting with a "Z", so they show up at the bottom of the MQTT group...

I guess an alternative way of doing it is to simply rename the device in ISY.

As a low priority wish-list item allowing to assign groups by user and,  A LOT higher, an auto discover feature for MQTT nodes (Tasmota even has an AutoDiscover Flag, 19 for that purpose).

Cheers

You should now be able to turn that group on and off from the isy. If it works, Simply add the group to your isy scene and they will all work together in sync

[lilyoyo1]

2 minutes ago, TriLife said:

That worked.

All my GroupTopics have a name: starting with a "Z", so they show up at the bottom of the MQTT group...

I guess an alternative way of doing it is to simply rename the device in ISY.

As a low priority wish-list item allowing to assign groups by user and,  A LOT higher, an auto discover feature for MQTT nodes (Tasmota even has an AutoDiscover Flag, 19 for that purpose).

Cheers

I prefer keeping my naming conventions the same. That way regardless of where I'm looking at the information, I know exactly what I'm looking at vs having to compare the 2. It's minor but when dealing with countless devices and systems it adds up

[TriLife]

1 minute ago, lilyoyo1 said:

You should now be able to turn that group on and off from the isy. If it works, Simply add the group to your isy scene and they will all work together in sync

Yes, that worked before. It just seems that adding a "Scene"  with only one item in it seems overkill. In my program, I can just  say "Set 'MQTT Controller / Z Exterior' Off" 

Set 'MQTT Controller / Z Exterior' Off

and be done...

[TriLife]

3 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I prefer keeping my naming conventions the same. That way regardless of where I'm looking at the information, I know exactly what I'm looking at vs having to compare the 2. It's minor but when dealing with countless devices and systems it adds up

Agreed. I'm just starting out, so Z will be my GroupTopic Prefix...

[lilyoyo1]

4 minutes ago, TriLife said:

Yes, that worked before. It just seems that adding a "Scene"  with only one item in it seems overkill. In my program, I can just  say "Set 'MQTT Controller / Z Exterior' Off" 

Set 'MQTT Controller / Z Exterior' Off

and be done...

The program way can work too. I prefer scenes for management. Much easier as you start adding more and more programs. Especially when you have to start looking at what something does in 1 that may cause conflict in another. 

[TriLife]

1 minute ago, lilyoyo1 said:

The program way can work too. I prefer scenes for management. Much easier as you start adding more and more programs. Especially when you have to start looking at what something does in 1 that may cause conflict in another. 

I'll follow your suggestion. Starting from scratch, I might as well use something that is known to work.

Thanks again

[Michel Kohanim]

@TriLife,

If groups work as your experiment suggested, then you do not need to put them in ISY Scenes. And, they don't have to be in programs either. And, you can assign regular spoken names to them (regardless of their ISY names) in ISY Portal for Google Home.

With kind regards,
Michel

[TriLife]

1 hour ago, Michel Kohanim said:

@TriLife,

If groups work as your experiment suggested, then you do not need to put them in ISY Scenes. And, they don't have to be in programs either. And, you can assign regular spoken names to them (regardless of their ISY names) in ISY Portal for Google Home.

With kind regards,
Michel

Thanks Michel,

I'm heading in that direction, but have experienced weird behavior on the part of Google Home, occasionally misunderstanding similar names.

Google Home, and I, get confused. So, at least at the onset, it seems better to pay attention to unique names across platforms. With Google's AI, sometimes it isn't clear if the " I " stand for intelligence, sometimes for idiocy.

Cheers.