Insteon Open/Close Sensor (#2421, TriggerLinc) GOING TO SLEEP?

[dbwarner5]

I have two of the above on a two separate pole barn overhead doors such that when closed they are in contact with the magnet, open they are not. 

It seems that when I first open one of the doors, after a period of time has elapsed, ie 1 day or more, I get about a 90% reliability of it registering open. 

Then a few hours later, when I close the door, I get NO registration of it being closed. However, if I immediately open the door and reclose it any number of times, or manually move the magnet, I get 100% reliable readings. It seems as if the triggerlinc is "going to sleep" and takes a cycle to wake it up enough to properly register. And this "sleep" seems to happen every time when its open, and just randomly when in the closed position. 

Has anyone else seen this behavior?

I can reliably repeat this behavior.  

Thanks. 

[Brian H]

Battery operated Insteon Module. Do go into a power saving mode. To save the battery's life. Where it will not respond to a query from the ISY994i. When you ether open or close it. It should wake up and send the Open or Closed message.

It sounds like you have poor communications. How far away is a Dual Band Module to receive the modules message. Have you done the communications tests built into the Dual Band module receiving the RF signal and other Dual Band Modules or the PLM?

[dbwarner5]

@Brian H Yes, am aware that battery items go to sleep. 

It seems as if though it takes a “cycle” to get it to work. AFter that first cyc.e, i get 100% communications and consistency, but am not sure. How to test it vs a communications issue.  How would i check the RF signal at a dual band device nearby?  And if its not there, is it a communications issue or the device not broadcasting, the first cycle which is more what i seem to be seeing. 

Thanks,

[simplextech]

1 hour ago, dbwarner5 said:

It seems as if though it takes a “cycle” to get it to work.

Yeah I was not happy at all with the Insteon Open/Close sensors.

[dbwarner5]

@simplextech i have it mounted on the door, with the magnet on a hinge. When the door is open, the hinge falls away. I may have to mount the magnet on the side and place an extra one 1 foot further up the track so that it gets a “false” cycle to kick the dumb thing on.  May work......but really? 

[Brian H]

12 hours ago, dbwarner5 said:

@Brian H Yes, am aware that battery items go to sleep. 

It seems as if though it takes a “cycle” to get it to work. AFter that first cyc.e, i get 100% communications and consistency, but am not sure. How to test it vs a communications issue.  How would i check the RF signal at a dual band device nearby?  And if its not there, is it a communications issue or the device not broadcasting, the first cycle which is more what i seem to be seeing. 

Thanks,

I looked at the Quick Guide for the 2421 and full manual for the new part number 2843-222. It seems that module doesn't have a communications test. So that is out.

Is the two pin jumper in the sensors board On or Off? When Off  it sends an On to Scene 1 and an Off to Scene 2. From your findings of OK first time and intermittent the next times. I would think the jumper is on but I figured I would ask any way.

The module is not mounted on metal is it or obstructions between the module and a module receiving the RF commands? Manual indicates up to 150 Feet with no interference or obstructions in the RF path.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Brian H
Jumper Function Correction

[larryllix]

Did this happen in the warmer months also?

[dbwarner5]

@Brian H just to be clear, this is not the case.. “From your findings of OK first time and intermittent the next times.”.

Please read my posts a little closer where i have stated twice: “It seems as if though it takes a “cycle” to get it to work. After that first cycle, i get 100% communications and consistency,”

@larryllix Am not sure about the temp question.  It’s been around 50-70 degrees F here when i have noticed and isolated the behavior. 

Thanks.

[Brian H]

I did read your posts.

Sorry my post was not clear. My statement was meant to say. They function the first time OK and again after a few cycles.

If you can see them. Does the LED flash on the module even when the messages are missing?

Edited October 4, 2020 by Brian H

[dbwarner5]

No it doesn’t seem to 

[larryllix]

I would think we can conclude it is happening inside the modules and not ISY. Also freezing and/or ice inside is not an issue. Possibly some rain got inside? But both is a snag in that logic.

Can you test with another external magnet? Possibly the magnetic strength is too weak or too large of a gap? Have you tried wiggling the device (physical shock) after the first close, and it fails to update, to see if the contacts have some stickiness to them?

Some devices have 3v AA lithium batteries. If you replaced them with a 1.5V AA battery, it could do strange things.

Edited October 4, 2020 by larryllix

[dbwarner5]

Very  unlikely that rain or anything else got to them. Just installed them a few months ago. They are close to the top of ten ft doors, on the inside. 

Gap is about as small as you can get it. I need to play with them some more, on another day, when its not 45, rainy with high winds.. lol . 

I have the magnet on a large hinge, which may just be moving too slowly at first. I have lubricated them, but need to have the door open for a period of time, and then get a ladder out and manually move the magnet once quickly and see if it registers. I have done this before as I was trouble shooting them, but it was before I had my hypothesis of what was happening. Instead have recently just shut the door, and seen that it didnt register, open it 2 feet, and then reshut it and it registers. At this point I have immediately repeated opening and shutting the door 2-4 feet and closing it and all open/shuts register. 

So to eliminate my installation method as the cause; theory possibly being that the hinge operates too slowly the first time, I will repeat it manually with a ladder.

Next will be to remove the cover and see if I can see the switch manually moving and lastly, remove it from the door and bring inside where I can test it further manually.

Will keep this posted later this week when I get to it. (or if I get impatient today, I may go out and get it off and test it further inside!). 

Cheers.

[larryllix]

12 minutes ago, dbwarner5 said:

Very  unlikely that rain or anything else got to them. Just installed them a few months ago. They are close to the top of ten ft doors, on the inside. 

Gap is about as small as you can get it. I need to play with them some more, on another day, when its not 45, rainy with high winds.. lol . 

I have the magnet on a large hinge, which may just be moving too slowly at first. I have lubricated them, but need to have the door open for a period of time, and then get a ladder out and manually move the magnet once quickly and see if it registers. I have done this before as I was trouble shooting them, but it was before I had my hypothesis of what was happening. Instead have recently just shut the door, and seen that it didnt register, open it 2 feet, and then reshut it and it registers. At this point I have immediately repeated opening and shutting the door 2-4 feet and closing it and all open/shuts register. 

So to eliminate my installation method as the cause; theory possibly being that the hinge operates too slowly the first time, I will repeat it manually with a ladder.

Next will be to remove the cover and see if I can see the switch manually moving and lastly, remove it from the door and bring inside where I can test it further manually.

Will keep this posted later this week when I get to it. (or if I get impatient today, I may go out and get it off and test it further inside!). 

Cheers.

Speed usually doesn't matter but filed strength of the magnet does. However if the magnetic field is barely string enough, the speed may cause a mechanical vibration inside the device, or if you create some mechanical shock the contact inside may be jarred loose enough to make it transfer. I have seen many contacts that will not close with a weak field but work when some mechanical shock is added in relay work over the years.

Are you sure your magnetic gap is wide enough to make the device sense "Open/off"? @Brian H may be able to tell us what type of contact is inside these devices. I assume they are sealed reed type contacts. May be a manufacturing defect where something sticky (oil?) was inside the sealed glass envelope or on the contact making it sticky.

Edited October 4, 2020 by larryllix

[dbwarner5]

5 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Speed usually doesn't matter but filed strength of the magnet does. However if the magnetic field is barely string enough, the speed may cause a mechanical vibration inside the device, or if you create some mechanical shock the contact inside may be jarred loose enough to make it transfer. I have seen many contacts that will not close with a weak field but work when some mechanical shock is added in relay work over the years.

Lots of vibration... mounted on a moving garage door. 

5 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Are you sure your magnetic gap is wide enough to make the device sense "Open/off"? 

Yes..I'll post pictures.. Now I am curious enough to go uninstall them and bring them inside to see if I can duplicate the behavior indoors, manually.

[dbwarner5]

Pictures of set up: Door in open position, Door in closed position.

I have unmounted it and have it now inside, in the Open position.. will leave it this way for an hour or two and test it. 

[Brian H]

It is a sealed magnetic reed relay as mentioned earlier.

Are the brackets metal? Steel or any other metal a magnet attracts? The Magnet and Sensor look like they are mounted on metal brackets. That can effect how things work and the RF transmission distance to an Insteon RF receiver. The LED on the sensor. Should flash each time the magnet turns the sensor on or off.

As a test. You can connect a switch to the external switch input of the sensor. Leaving the magnet away from the sensor. Then open and close the external test switch and see if it sends more reliably.

 

Edited October 4, 2020 by Brian H

[dbwarner5]

So far, I cannot get it to repeat inside. So this takes me to my hinge mechanism is somehow interfering or I am getting poor communications. Cant explain why it works well after the first time though. 

Will repeat experimenting with it tomorrow inside, and then may go back to a traditional fixed mount vs the hinge and see what happens. 

Thanks.

[larryllix]

1 hour ago, dbwarner5 said:

So far, I cannot get it to repeat inside. So this takes me to my hinge mechanism is somehow interfering or I am getting poor communications. Cant explain why it works well after the first time though. 

Will repeat experimenting with it tomorrow inside, and then may go back to a traditional fixed mount vs the hinge and see what happens. 

Thanks.

Ahhhh....My guess is you have the magnet and sensor enclosed in an almost complete ferrous loop that bypasses the magnetic field and weakens the magnet's strength.. You could try mounting it a wooden board or aluminum plate to isolate it from all the steel and iron surrounding it.

[dbwarner5]

I think its the metal of the hinge is affecting the magnetic field somehow.. having it removed, and inside, its working 100%. 

Will rethink my installation and try again! Will eliminate that aspect and then that will narrow it down to poor communications  as the only variable left. 

Thanks for everyone's help. Will keep trying..

[larryllix]

31 minutes ago, dbwarner5 said:

I think its the metal of the hinge is affecting the magnetic field somehow.. having it removed, and inside, its working 100%. 

Will rethink my installation and try again! Will eliminate that aspect and then that will narrow it down to poor communications  as the only variable left. 

Thanks for everyone's help. Will keep trying..

Isn't that little arrow supposed to point at the sensor? I would think that would be the side of the open magnetic field (horseshoe magnet format) and you have it across the steel hinge.

[Brian H]

The Sensor and Magnet both have an arrow on them. For correct orientation .

From your photo. I see the set button through the top cover. So you don't have to take it off to push it. That is the later 2843-222.  The my ISY994i calls it a 2441. When I added one for a test.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Brian H

[dbwarner5]

Yes, it must be the newer version as I just got them this summer. 

Redid the installation to be more of a typical installation with a stationary magnet (on wood), and the transmitter moving on the door. 

So far, with limited testing, its working. 

Time will tell, but I think the metal hinge was somehow affecting it. 

Thanks! 

[Brian H]

Sounds encouraging. 

Let us know the results after a test period.

[dbwarner5]

So far so good.... will keep an update.