Adding X10 code

[yardman 49]

Hello all:

 

Well, I finally have started to set up my ISY-26. As I have many links to rebuild, I figured that I would start slow and try to add my X10 codes first, and then do the Insteon stuff later

 

I have downloaded and installed 2.5 Beta (2.4.12).

 

I've been looking around the forums, but cannot find any information on how to add and manually trigger an X10 "on" or "off" command. I thought that I had seen a post on this a few days back, but could not find it tonight.

 

Please forgive my ignorance. I'm and Essential Timer and Houselinc refugee.

 

I thought that there would be a command that would allow me to simply add an X10 code to a list or tree, where I could identify what the code was used for, and then be able to click on or select that code to send an "On" command out for that code.

 

It doesn't seem like there's much on the Wiki, either.

 

Any help would be appreciated.

 

Thanks

[Mark Sanctuary]

The X10 support is only done thru ISY programs, here is an example program of how you use the X10 support.

 

If 
       X10 'A1/On (3)' is Received 

Then 
       Set  Scene 'Movie Time' On 

Else 
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

Right now the ISY X10 support works correctly but, the PLM X10 support is giving some of us some real headaches. If you get X10 working well please let all know how you did it but, otherwise I would suggest that you work on the Insteon stuff first because the X10 stuff might get frustrating.

[yardman 49]

Wow, Mark....thanks for getting back so quickly! I should have posted earlier and saved myself some time!

 

So what I just did in way of an "X10 test" was to create two programs. The first was "If M1 'X10/on' is received, send E1 'X10/on'". And I made a second one to turn E1 off. This worked for my E1 coded lights. So at least I know that the hardware is working, albeit slowly. Probaby about 1 to 2 seconds, which is actually much slower than X10 signals normally pass around my house. But at least it does work.

 

Michel:

Have you considered giving us the ability to add X10 codes similar to adding Insteon devices? We could then more easily test X10 control, and also keep a list in the GUI as to what X10 codes control what X10 devices in our networks. We can presently do this with SH Houselinc.

 

Thanks.

[Michel Kohanim]

yardman 49,

 

Our X10 story is a long one and one which is not that interesting! In short, we were never ever going to support X10. we had a few good reasons:

1. X10 reliability issues

2. PLM/X10 reliability issues some of which still exists

3. X10 performance issues (quite slow compared to INSTEON)

etc.

 

But, due to an overwhelming demand by our customers for for X10 support, we added the current functionality. Before doing so, we did have a design session where we decided against adding the X10 devices under the tree and here were our reasons:

1. The tree and nodes represent the actual "relationships" between devices ... in the X10 world, this relationship is implied by the program. i.e. the relationship is carried through an intermediary and not in a peer-to-peer manner

2. The amount of time it would take us to add X10 support into the tree would far outweigh the amount of time we had allocated to this project

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Wow, Mark....thanks for getting back so quickly! I should have posted earlier and saved myself some time!

 

So what I just did in way of an "X10 test" was to create two programs. The first was "If M1 'X10/on' is received, send E1 'X10/on'". And I made a second one to turn E1 off. This worked for my E1 coded lights. So at least I know that the hardware is working, albeit slowly. Probaby about 1 to 2 seconds, which is actually much slower than X10 signals normally pass around my house. But at least it does work.

 

Michel:

Have you considered giving us the ability to add X10 codes similar to adding Insteon devices? We could then more easily test X10 control, and also keep a list in the GUI as to what X10 codes control what X10 devices in our networks. We can presently do this with SH Houselinc.

 

Thanks.

[yardman 49]

Hello Michel:

 

 

Thanks for sharing the "X10 history" with me.

 

For what it's worth, I am very glad that you did add some level of X10 functionality. I probably wouldn't be integrating the ISY into my system if some level of X10 were not available. So I am very appreciative.

 

Would you consider adding just a very basic type of direct X10 control? Not adding X10 to the tree, but maybe as a new tab under "Configuration", just before or just after the ELK tab.

 

I picture this new tab view as having a table/spreadsheet built into it that would allow us to enter a list of our X10 codes, with a description box for each code where we could manually identify the devices associated with that code (e.g., flood lights, KPL button H, motion sensor, etc). The list could be active, such that you would click and highlight an X10 code ("selecting" it), and then you could could click a function button, such as "on", "off", "query", etc., to immediately send a command out to the selected code.

 

I think that this could help in troubleshooting X10 problems, in my opinion. Due to the inherent signal problems with X10, it would just be nice to have a way to see if a direct control signal from the GUI thru the ISY to the PLM to the network is actually getting through.

 

 

 

Thanks

[yardman 49]

Hello again Michel:

 

I currently have some KPL buttons and other Insteon devices (Togglelinc, Lamplincs, ApplianceLincs) that I have configured for X10. So for instance, on my kitchen sink KPL, button E is coded for X10 E2, and button G for X10 E3, each controlling various groups of lights in the house.

 

When I add that KPL to the ISY, if I choose to "Overwrite" the existing links, will my X10 codes remain unaffected, or will I have to recreate them on the KPL?

 

Thanks

[Mark Sanctuary]

I think I remember that the X10 stuff in the devices is not touched by the ISY.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello Frank,

 

I like your idea vis-a-vis another tab where you can configure/name your X10 devices. I will surely review it in our meeting.

 

As far as your KPL which has an X10 address assigned, no: ISY does not touch it. But, please be ware of the following:

1. If you turn on your KPL's load/sub buttons via an X10 command, then ISY will not be privy to it

2. In some cases, some of the older KPLs start misbehaving and bombard the network with their X10 addresses. If you experience intermittent/inconsistent behavior from this device, then please consider doing a factory reset on it

 

With kind regards,

 

Hello again Michel:

 

I currently have some KPL buttons and other Insteon devices (Togglelinc, Lamplincs, ApplianceLincs) that I have configured for X10. So for instance, on my kitchen sink KPL, button E is coded for X10 E2, and button G for X10 E3, each controlling various groups of lights in the house.

 

When I add that KPL to the ISY, if I choose to "Overwrite" the existing links, will my X10 codes remain unaffected, or will I have to recreate them on the KPL?

 

Thanks

[Chris Jahn]

I thought that there would be a command that would allow me to simply add an X10 code to a list or tree, where I could identify what the code was used for, and then be able to click on or select that code to send an "On" command out for that code.

 

Frank,

 

To some degree, you can use programs as a means of naming your X10 devices (A1, A2 etc.)

 

In this example, program 'Dining Room On-Off' represents X10 A4 On or Off, essentially naming it 'Dining Room On-Off'.

 

'Program 1' references A4 directly. 'Program 2' is identical, but references 'Dining Room On-Off' instead of 'A4'

 

 

Program 'Dining Room On-Off':

If
       X10 'A4/On (3)' is Received
   And X10 'A4/Off (11)' is not Received

Then
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

Program 1:

If
       X10 'A4/On (3)' is Received
   And X10 'A4/Off (11)' is not Received

Then
       Set  Scene 'Dining Room' On

Else
       Set  Scene 'Dining Room' Off

Program 2:

If
       Program 'Dining Room On-Off' is True

Then
       Set  Scene 'Dining Room' On

Else
       Set  Scene 'Dining Room' Off

[jgraziano]

I would also like to see some additional X10 support in ISY, but not to the detriment of other future capabilities. As bad as HouseLinc is, they did do a very good job of integrating X10. Of course SH has more of a vested interest in that than UD!

At a minimum, I would just like to see the tab as mentioned where you can have an X10 translation table and a manual on/off right there on the table. That would fill 80-90% of my needs. Right now, as others have done, I keep a spreadsheet with the X10 addresses and names. Sometimes for quick reference, I will copy and paste that into the 'comments' section of the program.

For direct control, which is mostly for testing. I dug up an old 4-channel controller and set it to a house code I never use. Then I did a program for each button with just the 'if' statement for that address. I put in the X10 'then' as needed and use that controller for the manual control.

It's a workaround, but it does work. Sure would like to see that X10 tab, though!

[Michel Kohanim]

jgraziano,

 

Let me see if I got it correctly:

You simply want a tab where you can tabulate your X10 codes and assign them names. Then, you would like to use the names, as assigned in the tab, for your triggers. Right?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

I would also like to see some additional X10 support in ISY, but not to the detriment of other future capabilities. As bad as HouseLinc is, they did do a very good job of integrating X10. Of course SH has more of a vested interest in that than UD!

At a minimum, I would just like to see the tab as mentioned where you can have an X10 translation table and a manual on/off right there on the table. That would fill 80-90% of my needs. Right now, as others have done, I keep a spreadsheet with the X10 addresses and names. Sometimes for quick reference, I will copy and paste that into the 'comments' section of the program.

For direct control, which is mostly for testing. I dug up an old 4-channel controller and set it to a house code I never use. Then I did a program for each button with just the 'if' statement for that address. I put in the X10 'then' as needed and use that controller for the manual control.

It's a workaround, but it does work. Sure would like to see that X10 tab, though!

[jgraziano]

Yep, that's it exactly. In addition, though, it would be very useful to be able to send X10 codes manually from the GUI. There is no way to do that outside of program control. Maybe the manual control could be on that tab also.

 

Sure, it would be nice if you could set up X10 devices so they could be in the tree, used in scenes, etc., but I understand that a cost/benefit check on that probably wouldn't come out so good!

 

Thanks.

Jim

[Michel Kohanim]

Jim,

 

Got it ... it shall be reviewed and decided upon shortly.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

Yep, that's it exactly. In addition, though, it would be very useful to be able to send X10 codes manually from the GUI. There is no way to do that outside of program control. Maybe the manual control could be on that tab also.

 

Sure, it would be nice if you could set up X10 devices so they could be in the tree, used in scenes, etc., but I understand that a cost/benefit check on that probably wouldn't come out so good!

 

Thanks.

Jim

[jgraziano]

Thanks!

[Joe Church]

I have Homeseer 2 and lots of X-10 devices.

I bought an ISY-26 because I wanted to operate independent of my PC and via web browser.

From my reading on the web, Insteon and ISY support X-10 (and is also much better, etc.)

From what I can read in this forum the ISY support for X-10 is minimal.

If I had been able to read this dialog last week I would not have ordered an ISY.

I am not about to replace all my X-10s although I would expect to add Insteons over time.

If ISY was my product I would support older vintage technology as a way to attract people like me and migrate them to Insteon. Even Microsoft supports older versions.

The tab where you add X-10 devices sounds like enough.

If you are not going to do this, I would ask you to make clear to buyers that ISY really doesn't support X-10.

[yardman 49]

I have Homeseer 2 and lots of X-10 devices.

I bought an ISY-26 because I wanted to operate independent of my PC and via web browser.

From my reading on the web, Insteon and ISY support X-10 (and is also much better, etc.)

From what I can read in this forum the ISY support for X-10 is minimal.

If I had been able to read this dialog last week I would not have ordered an ISY.

I am not about to replace all my X-10s although I would expect to add Insteons over time.

If ISY was my product I would support older vintage technology as a way to attract people like me and migrate them to Insteon. Even Microsoft supports older versions.

The tab where you add X-10 devices sounds like enough.

If you are not going to do this, I would ask you to make clear to buyers that ISY really doesn't support X-10.

 

Hello Joe:

 

The ISY support for X10 works well enough for my purposes. I started the "tabs" request post because I had wanted a little more "direct" control, which is why I proposed the "extra tab".

 

UDI made it clear from the beginning that the ISY would not support X10. I believe that it was only after requests from users that X10 support was added. I know that it wasn't until I heard about the X10 support being added that I finally jumped in and bought my ISY. So I am grateful that they added it.

 

I'm happy with the way the ISY handles X10 triggers and programs. For instance, I can use an ISY program to send out an X10 command when it receives a different X10 house code. Or when it receives an Insteon command. Or when a timer runs. So it is very flexible in this reqard. You could almost consider it to be a "Insteon/X10 bridge".

 

So in terms of features at this point, adding a little more direct control (for testing communication, for example), would be desirable, but it isn't a show stopper (at least for me).

 

The only X10 problem that I've seen is with the PLM itself, which is a SmartHome product. Michel (CEO of UDI) recently said that the latest PLM revision from SmartHome (firmware 61) should improve the sensitivity of the PLM to incoming signals. We'll have to wait until someone gets one and reports back here on the forums.

 

I hope that this helps. If you have specific questions regarding your X10 applications, please feel free to post them here and one of the users will most likely have an answer.

 

 

Best wishes,

[MikeB]

I have Homeseer 2 and lots of X-10 devices.

I bought an ISY-26 because I wanted to operate independent of my PC and via web browser.

From my reading on the web, Insteon and ISY support X-10 (and is also much better, etc.)

From what I can read in this forum the ISY support for X-10 is minimal.

If I had been able to read this dialog last week I would not have ordered an ISY.

I am not about to replace all my X-10s although I would expect to add Insteons over time.

If ISY was my product I would support older vintage technology as a way to attract people like me and migrate them to Insteon. Even Microsoft supports older versions.

The tab where you add X-10 devices sounds like enough.

If you are not going to do this, I would ask you to make clear to buyers that ISY really doesn't support X-10.

 

Hey Joe -

 

It's too bad that you purchased the ISY thinking it was something it was not, but I've never heard anyone from UDI ever say they would implement anything but the most basic X10 support. Their product description page doesn't even mention X10. Where exactly did you read about the ISY's X10 support?

 

It sounds like you didn't do your research before purchasing. If you had read anything regarding the ISY-26 and X10, you would have understood that minimal X10 support was added only as an afterthought.

 

I can understand how you would want additional X10 features, but the majority of ISY-26 users are Insteon users who maybe have a few X10 devices left kicking around (like me) - if they have any X10 at all. I would personally rather see UDI focus on adding forward-looking features rather than additional support for a technology most people are looking to replace anyway.

 

That being said, make sure you fully understand how the ISY and its X10 features operate before giving up - it's very possible that you can do what you need.

[d_l]

I have Homeseer 2 and lots of X-10 devices.

I bought an ISY-26 because I wanted to operate independent of my PC and via web browser.

From my reading on the web, Insteon and ISY support X-10 (and is also much better, etc.)

From what I can read in this forum the ISY support for X-10 is minimal.

If I had been able to read this dialog last week I would not have ordered an ISY.

I am not about to replace all my X-10s although I would expect to add Insteons over time.

If ISY was my product I would support older vintage technology as a way to attract people like me and migrate them to Insteon. Even Microsoft supports older versions.

The tab where you add X-10 devices sounds like enough.

If you are not going to do this, I would ask you to make clear to buyers that ISY really doesn't support X-10.

 

I have mostly X10 devices operated with non-extended commands and in simple on/off mode. I held off purchasing it until they added X10 support and I knew from reading this forum that it just had basic X10 capabilities. I'm very happy with the ISY! In fact, the ISY's capbilities have greatly exceeded my expectations

 

I've made a suggestion someplace around here for an separate X10 tab to place "programlets" that show the last command (on/off) given by each X10 device. This tab would mimic the Main tab as much as can be possible for X10 devices and keep those X10 status tracking "programlets" out of the Program Summary page.

 

Do I need that tab (or something like it)? No. I can live without it. It would be nice if they could implement it without a major distraction from the other promised feaures they are working on. Hopefully when they get a chance they can add it or some other way to better organize/separate the X10 devices.

[Chris Jahn]

We will be enhancing the X10 support in a future release.

 

In addition to the suggestions we have received, we will address the requirements that 'Just Another Joe' summarized very well in this post:

 

http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?t=592

[jgraziano]

Sure, I'd welcome additional X10 support, but it hasn't stopped me from integrating existing X10 stuff into my system. It's less convenient to just put in codes instead of names, but it sounds like that will change. As a semi-workaround, I keep my X10 codes/names in a spreadsheet and paste it into comments where needed. No, not optimum, but good enough for now.

So the two biggest things are being able to name X10 codes and use those names in programs, and direct X10 control in the console.

I've had more X10 transmission issues than ISY/X10 issues.

[Algorithm]

We will be enhancing the X10 support in a future release.

 

In addition to the suggestions we have received, we will address the requirements that 'Just Another Joe' summarized very well in this post:

 

http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?t=592

 

Chris, thanks so much for the good news, and for your continued support and improvement of the X-10 capabilities of ISY!

[Algorithm]

Hello All,

 

I though I would provide an 'Artists Concept' of what an X-10 tab might be like. The image below is a thumbnail, click on it for a full-size image. A description follows the image.

 

 

First, the X-10 tab is more of any 'every day' item (like a program), rather than a 'set it once and forget it' configuration-type item, so I placed the X-10 tab on the top level, between the Program Details tab and the Configuration tab.

 

The tab is divided into two panes; a scrollable configuration list on the left, and a status/update table on the right. Each displays all 256 X-10 codes. I created the image using the same colour scheme as used in the rest of the ISY Administrative Console.

 

There are a number of features depicted, which I will describe below. These are all open for discussion, of course.

 

Colour is very important, and I've coloured the list items (left panel) and the first two columns (only) of the table (right panel) for illustration; the remaining table columns are not coloured.

 

Red represents a Controller (or Controller/Responder) X-10 code and blue represents a Responder only code. A Controller code is a code which one wishes to use in ISY as a trigger (think of it as an incoming code); a Responder code is a code which is used to activate an X-10 device (think of it as an outgoing code). Controller codes may be codes sent to ISY from max-controllers, mini-controllers, palmpads, motion sensors and so forth. Responder codes may control X-10 switches, modules, cameras, etc.

 

Each code may be defined in the configuration list, giving it a name and type. The type determines the display colour; the name may be used in programs in place of the actual code.

 

The status table on the right shows ISY's predicted status of each X-10 code. 'On' is displayed for codes which are on, and a small dash is displayed for each code which is off. This keeps the table from becoming too cluttered, allowing On codes to be quickly identified. A code whose state (On or Off) is unknown, is left blank in the table and in the list [see A1, A2, A3, A4, A9, B6, B8, B13, B15, B16].

 

Codes which are not defined may still be sent and received, and their status tracked by ISY; such codes are displayed in black in both the table and the list [see B7, B14].

 

Right-clicking on any code within the table opens a context menu with the items On, Off, Bright and Dim. Left-clicking On or Off immediately sends the appropriate On or Off command for that X-10 house/unit code. Left-clicking Bright or Dim brings up a small dialog (not pictured) which allows setting a repeat count; when the dialog box is accepted, the appropriate X-10 Bright or Dim command will be sent the specified number of times. The dialog box title should show the X-10 code and the action (Bright or Dim). Though not pictured, the table cell which was right-clicked should be highlighted, to indicate which X-10 code the context menu applies to.

 

I hope this will provide a good base on which to discuss and build an X-10 tab. I, for one, am anxiously awaiting the updated X-10 capabilities of the next firmware revision.

[Joe Church]

I really like the proposed two panes for X-10.

 

I would suggest three refinements:

- In the right pane in addition to ON or OFF status, show the %ON status for Dimmed items (calculated where there is no feedback).

- Given that all combinations cannot show in the left pane without scrolling that only named combinations appear. (The right pane already gives all combinations including the unnamed.)

- It would be good if an X-10 command could also be sent from the left pane by clicking on the item in the status column.

 

A further thought would be to have a timestamped log screen of all X-10 messages heard on the line, with a clear button (when the log gets too big). This helps to track what did or didn't happen.

[upstatemike]

This looks really good! Any chance something like this will get implemented?

[Mark Sanctuary]

I though I would provide an 'Artists Concept' of what an X-10 tab might be like. The image below is a thumbnail, click on it for a full-size image. A description follows the image.

 

This is great; I think you have some understanding of GUI creation etiquette! I like that you show a context menu instead of putting buttons across the bottom of the tab area. Also I like that you properly colored white/lightblue every other row in the table to keep continuity with the other tables in the ISY (the program summary needs to have this done) which makes the table much easier to scan up and down for a device.

 

I have a suggestion; the table on the left needs a context menu too. One entry could be “Show Only Assigned Addressesâ€. This would shrink the table entries down to showing only devices you have assigned and hide all the blank rows.