DAlter01 Posted January 20, 2021 Posted January 20, 2021 In a prior home I had a big Insteon network controlled by an ISY. It worked good but there wasn't any local talent to maintain it after the sale and when I mentioned Insteon to the buyer and their agents, nobody had heard of it, etc. I don't think having that automation helped in the sale and improved the property value. It was a big multi-million dollar house, the buyers had Crestron at their prior house and having a functional home automation is "expected" in that price range. I am now contemplating my options on a new house. It has an old Lutron system that needs to be completely replaced. I can go Insteon again which will take a bunch of my time to set up but a local well qualified Lutron dealer has pitched a new Homeworks system, and frankly, the price isn't that bad. Being Lutron and with that name being known among at least some buyers and certainly by their real estate agents, in the multi-million price range does anyone know if the Lutron system might add value? In other words, if I spend more money to get the Lutron Homeworks system, do you believe I'll get that increased cost back, or more, in sales price when I sell the place? Assume, of course, that I sell before the tech is outdated. He is picthing a new tech Homeworks QSX processor so I believe it should have at least a 15 year operating lifespan. I'll probably own the house for 5-10 years so a 15 year technology lifespan shouldn't be a dead system when I go to sell.
simplextech Posted January 20, 2021 Posted January 20, 2021 28 minutes ago, dalter2 said: In other words, if I spend more money to get the Lutron Homeworks system, do you believe I'll get that increased cost back, or more, in sales price when I sell the place? Assume, of course, that I sell before the tech is outdated. He is picthing a new tech Homeworks QSX processor so I believe it should have at least a 15 year operating lifespan. I'll probably own the house for 5-10 years so a 15 year technology lifespan shouldn't be a dead system when I go to sell. This is familiar. I had a similar conversation earlier today. Do or gadgets increase a home value or actually decrease a home's value when you go to sell? That depends on the automation technology in place. You will find discussions in this forum and any other DIY home automation forum asking the question "What do I do when I move?" Most responses are to rip it all out and replace with dumb equivalents because you won't get the value out of the devices through the home sale and depending how extreme DIY your house is it may actually be a liability or may not even pass inspection. Which you would have to fix before selling at your cost. Now the reverse is often the case with higher end systems such as a Lutron lighting system or a Control4, Crestron, Savant, RTI, URC, eLan automation/control system. These are not DIY systems and have been professionally installed (hopefully maintained) and will either Increase the value of a home or do nothing in regards to the value. I have never seen any professional system decrease a home value (that was properly maintained). Now if the system is 10 years old doesn't even work and there's a house full of non-functioning touchscreens... well... I'm going to detract points for that. Now on to the HomeWorks QSX processor. If you decide to go this route you need to decide what your plans are today and for the next 5-10 years. There's the existing version of the QSX and there's a newer QSX+ that was released last year. I know the Pro level control systems are working on integrating the newer QSX+ processor but Lutron changed the game and instead of using the tried and true Lutron Integration Protocol (LIP) which is a standard socket connection people refer to it as the "telnet" Lutron changed to their newer LEAP protocol which is using SSH and keys for authentication and access. This changes the game quite a bit. Mainly because all of these control systems have to learn the in's/out's of the new interaction with LEAP and because Lutron hasn't released consistent documentation around their implementation. To make it harder they have only provided developer information to Pro systems and partners for integration. Now the point of this was that if you go with HomeWorks and plan on using the system today and integrate it with any system you want the QSX processor and NOT the QSX+ otherwise you'll have a really awesome lighting system that does not integrate with anything yet.
DAlter01 Posted January 20, 2021 Author Posted January 20, 2021 6 minutes ago, simplextech said: Lutron changed to their newer LEAP protocol which is using SSH and keys for authentication and access. This changes the game quite a bit. Mainly because all of these control systems have to learn the in's/out's of the new interaction with LEAP and because Lutron hasn't released consistent documentation around their implementation. To make it harder they have only provided developer information to Pro systems and partners for integration. Now the point of this was that if you go with HomeWorks and plan on using the system today Yeah, I understood about 50-75% of that, but I think I get your point. And, thank you for the heads up on the difference between the regular and the + system. He said it came out last year so that sounds like he was talking about QSX+. Sounds like it is time for a discussion. I'm torn. I LOVE Insteon dimmer switches and most days i enjoyed building and tinkering around with the Insteon/ISY system and I had time to build it over several years. Switching to the new house with Lutron , lets just say I don't love their switches/dimmers and I suppose there are probably worse dimmer switches out there somewhere, not sure I've encountered worse except in maybe some bad Z-wave ones I saw - once. I'm sure they are reliable, they are Lutron. But after two months EVERY time I turn on/off the switch I have to make sure I hit near the center and not the top or bottom like I've done for the last 55 years. Why do they have to change the basic function of a wall switch??? OK, off my soap box. The daunting task I'm looking at now is to make the change from the old Lutron to Insteon I don't get to do that over time without having a house that is a lighting/function mess. Realistically I'd have to do it all at once and at nearly 150 devices that becomes more work than a hobbyist with lots of other stuff going on wants to tackle considering the programming I'd want to get in place, debugged, etc. The Lutron, using a contractor to install, is somewhat interesting if it wasn't for those darn switches. Does someone ever get used to them?
lilyoyo1 Posted January 20, 2021 Posted January 20, 2021 It doesn't increase value in itself but it is a selling point for those who want automation. It also depends on where you are living. I know my clientele in SoCal tend to want automation while in NC it's not as big of a selling point. Many people are scared of maintaining an automation system. They're fearful of what happens when it doesn't work. Who do they call when they need help (installers go out of business), how much will it cost to replace (if your installer isn't around, a new one will probably replace it), and cost for maintenance. While a person who can afford a multi million dollar house should be able to afford the system, that may not be something they want to spend money on. Especially on a system that's already 10+ years by the time it comes to selling the house. Yes it's new today but it'll be ancient in the future. It really comes down to whether you want to do the work or pay someone to install and maintain it for you. Just know, service calls aren't cheap 1
simplextech Posted January 20, 2021 Posted January 20, 2021 27 minutes ago, dalter2 said: if it wasn't for those darn switches. Does someone ever get used to them? My own family are very... umm.... non-technical and I swap out switches and lighting all the time at home either for development testing or playing with something new. My family complained about every switch I put in except for the Lutron Caseta dimmers and the Lutron Maestro (Radio Ra2) switches. Why? Because they had buttons for dimming which made sense to them. The push and hold concept never really "clicked" with them Keypads are easy. Engrave or label them and then they know what the button does LOL ? Now are we "used to" the switches? The one switch in the entire house that I actually touch. Yeah I'm used to it. The one room in my home with very limited automation is our Master Bedroom. Motion sensor ONLY turns off the like (Vacancy) never turns on. So the only way to turn on a light is by voice or touch in that room. So yeah I'm used to just hitting the switch when I walk in and when I'm ready for bed I have a Pico remote on the nightstand
DAlter01 Posted January 20, 2021 Author Posted January 20, 2021 This one is in Scottsdale, i think more like SoCal than NC. I get your point about maintenance costs. That concern was also kicking around in my head. When you see those fancy new trucks running constantly around the community from the Home Automation companies you know many people are making good money off lots of homeowners with more money than time and throwing good money at the companies. It starts a viscous cycle where the companies keep pushing prices. The first Lutron contractor I called to figure out if my 15 year old wireless Illumination Homeworks system could be improved to work with Alexa, motion switches, LED's, etc. wanted me to provide a credit card authorization BEFORE the initial get to know each other meeting and sign a form acknowleding the service rates. Their theory is they go out on sales calls for people that don't understand the cost of HA and they are trying to be transparent. Well, that rubbed me wrong. And, at their $125/hr rate starting from the time they leave their shop and their two man teams (meaning $250/hr), that conversation didn't last long. I found a nice experienced contractor with 6 employess that charges $65/hr for all but programming. The programming is $125/hr but I can't really complain about that. A good programmer can be a bargain at that rate. A bad one, well, like with everything, they are not worth minimum wage. I met the $125/hr programmer. He was either a great con-man or he actually was pretty good, not sure yet. Maybe I'll find out, maybe not. Still deciding on if I want to try and be that programmer again.
DAlter01 Posted January 20, 2021 Author Posted January 20, 2021 5 minutes ago, simplextech said: Now are we "used to" the switches? The one switch in the entire house that I actually touch. Yeah I'm used to it. Yeah, come to think of it, on my last house with the Insteon/ISY, everything was automated and I didn't have to hit switches except for something out of my routine. I guess I was spoiled. Maybe part of my frustration with the Lutron switches is I actually have to touch them becuase the house doesn't have any automation. If I upgrade to to the new Lutron, if done right, I'll rarely touch a switch. 1
lilyoyo1 Posted January 20, 2021 Posted January 20, 2021 23 minutes ago, dalter2 said: Yeah, I understood about 50-75% of that, but I think I get your point. And, thank you for the heads up on the difference between the regular and the + system. He said it came out last year so that sounds like he was talking about QSX+. Sounds like it is time for a discussion. I'm torn. I LOVE Insteon dimmer switches and most days i enjoyed building and tinkering around with the Insteon/ISY system and I had time to build it over several years. Switching to the new house with Lutron , lets just say I don't love their switches/dimmers and I suppose there are probably worse dimmer switches out there somewhere, not sure I've encountered worse except in maybe some bad Z-wave ones I saw - once. I'm sure they are reliable, they are Lutron. But after two months EVERY time I turn on/off the switch I have to make sure I hit near the center and not the top or bottom like I've done for the last 55 years. Why do they have to change the basic function of a wall switch??? OK, off my soap box. The daunting task I'm looking at now is to make the change from the old Lutron to Insteon I don't get to do that over time without having a house that is a lighting/function mess. Realistically I'd have to do it all at once and at nearly 150 devices that becomes more work than a hobbyist with lots of other stuff going on wants to tackle considering the programming I'd want to get in place, debugged, etc. The Lutron, using a contractor to install, is somewhat interesting if it wasn't for those darn switches. Does someone ever get used to them? I've taken the Lutron courses but I don't install it because I think their switches are ugly. The system works great though for a very long time. For the cost, I'd go with C4. Depending on options it'll be slightly more expensive but not prohibitively more expensive. The switches look wonderful (especially if you get them custom etched). Knowing what I know; personally I wouldn't install any system that I could not maintain myself. I don't care how great it or the installer is, something will go wrong at some point. Yes, that many devices is daunting but not impossible. If you take time to plan and map out what you want, it actually becomes quite easy. Most just get stuff, install and then figure out what they want and it becomes as huge mess. For example, think about how you use your system today and what things you can see yourself doing tomorrow. What kind of devices does that require. Once you know your devices, you can hire an electrician, pull out the old stuff and have him install the new. You can link your 3 way switches immediately and then use the switches as dummy switches as you figure out the rest. Start with the easy stuff such as basic times for yard lights and other outdoor lighting. If you have a plan from the start, you can build out your scenes early on for things like your away, goodnight, all off/on, etc. Add devices to those as you add them to the Isy and you've just made it that much easier for yourself later. Planning can't be reiterated enough. That's why your installer makes it looks so easy while most diy people struggle. The more time you plan before the install, the easier it'll be
lilyoyo1 Posted January 20, 2021 Posted January 20, 2021 9 minutes ago, simplextech said: switches. Why? Because they had buttons for dimming which made sense to them. The push and hold concept never really "clicked" with them Keypads are easy. Engrave or label them and then they know what the button does LOL ? Now are we "used to" the switches? The one switch in the entire house that I actually touch. Yeah I'm used to it. The one room in my home with very limited automation is our Master Bedroom. Motion sensor ONLY turns off the like (Vacancy) never turns on. So the only way to turn on a light is by voice or touch in that room. So yeah I'm used to just hitting the switch when I walk in and when I'm ready for bed I have a Pico remote on the nightstand It's crazy how such a simple concept can drive people crazy. I always thought it would be easier to learn. I got tired of it which is what got me started with presents. Now just hit the relax button and the lights come on dim. No holding necessary.
simplextech Posted January 20, 2021 Posted January 20, 2021 1 minute ago, lilyoyo1 said: It's crazy how such a simple concept can drive people crazy. I always thought it would be easier to learn. I got tired of it Yeah I know... right?!?! it's soo simple but for whatever reason (some) people don't get it or really don't like it. Now what I find absolutely bat-$h!t crazy are z-wave switches from a vendor and others copying them that have like 5+ scene controls from a single switch... tap up X times for this scene down X times for this Scene... REALLY????? even I won't remember WTH it does and I'm programming the thing!?!?!?! 2
lilyoyo1 Posted January 20, 2021 Posted January 20, 2021 4 minutes ago, dalter2 said: Yeah, come to think of it, on my last house with the Insteon/ISY, everything was automated and I didn't have to hit switches except for something out of my routine. I guess I was spoiled. Maybe part of my frustration with the Lutron switches is I actually have to touch them becuase the house doesn't have any automation. If I upgrade to to the new Lutron, if done right, I'll rarely touch a switch. That's how automation should be. Apps not needed at all
simplextech Posted January 20, 2021 Posted January 20, 2021 9 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: Knowing what I know; personally I wouldn't install any system that I could not maintain myself. I don't care how great it or the installer is, something will go wrong at some point. We aren't all in the position to install our own pro level system though. As for the aesthetics of the switches... ehh it's a beauty is in the eye of the beholder type deal 1
lilyoyo1 Posted January 20, 2021 Posted January 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, simplextech said: Yeah I know... right?!?! it's soo simple but for whatever reason (some) people don't get it or really don't like it. Now what I find absolutely bat-$h!t crazy are z-wave switches from a vendor and others copying them that have like 5+ scene controls from a single switch... tap up X times for this scene down X times for this Scene... REALLY????? even I won't remember WTH it does and I'm programming the thing!?!?!?! I don't get it either. I do use a double tap for some stuff but that's generally just for opposite control ie: turning on lamps at night goes full on then dims down late. if it's after 10 they turn on dim but double tap turns fully on. I also do it when there's shared buttons between me and my wife such as the music buttons.
simplextech Posted January 20, 2021 Posted January 20, 2021 8 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: I do use a double tap for some stuff yeah double tap.. ok that's easy enough and I did use that with Insteon switches. Even used it for enable/disable of some programs which is nice. But 5+ scenes???? AHHH And yeah HomeWorks supports double tap which is nice
lilyoyo1 Posted January 20, 2021 Posted January 20, 2021 40 minutes ago, simplextech said: We aren't all in the position to install our own pro level system though. As for the aesthetics of the switches... ehh it's a beauty is in the eye of the beholder type deal True... But that's why we have the isy. Lol 1
lilyoyo1 Posted January 20, 2021 Posted January 20, 2021 30 minutes ago, simplextech said: yeah double tap.. ok that's easy enough and I did use that with Insteon switches. Even used it for enable/disable of some programs which is nice. But 5+ scenes???? AHHH And yeah HomeWorks supports double tap which is nice It's easy to remember a double tap. Once you get past 2, it's hard to remember stuff and harder to pull it off properly everytime
Recommended Posts